149 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Where was that "This is where the bad 'Mech touched me" graphic of Fup's?

I've already told the convergence/CoF jackalopes why they're wrong in, like, thirteen other convergence threads recently. I'm sick of doing it (on top of being actually sick, which shortens my patience further). It's as if, every time a convergence thread goes down in flames because disabling aim is a bad idea and everyone knows it (however little a few of them want to admit it), somebody has to start a new one just to p!ss everyone off all over again.

Well, I'm done. I've explained why decoupling Aiming from Hitting is bad for an FPS game a dozen times already, I'm not explaining it again for a while.

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 12 February 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

Where was that "This is where the bad 'Mech touched me" graphic of Fup's?

I've already told the convergence/CoF jackalopes why they're wrong in, like, thirteen other convergence threads recently. I'm sick of doing it (on top of being actually sick, which shortens my patience further). It's as if, every time a convergence thread goes down in flames because disabling aim is a bad idea and everyone knows it (however little a few of them want to admit it), somebody has to start a new one just to p!ss everyone off all over again.

Well, I'm done. I've explained why decoupling Aiming from Hitting is bad for an FPS game a dozen times already, I'm not explaining it again for a while.

Except that every other FPS game out there does it and has pretty much always done it? Especially the competitive ones?
Or that the whole principle of the mechanics the game is based on, the different armor/hit locations, crits, weapon damage, etc. was based on the idea of accuracy being the ultimate premium? It's why we have gauss chargeup, ghost heat, hoverjets, all the stuff people hate exists because we don't have an actual reflection of the stuff that should be, in the game we're playing around, affecting accuracy.

It's not decoupling aim from hitting. A $60 adjustable DPI gaming mouse is not 'skill'. Mine was well over $60 because it has lights that change color and I like having different profiles for different games or even different loadouts (like when I'm running 4xEBJs I'm default at 500 DPI and clutch to 1200 for twisting since I spend most my time peeking and lining up shots and generally only have to twist away return fire when I'm out of position). My mouse is my favorite crutch and I abuse the holy living **** out of it.

Playing as a floating sphere, immune to its environment and having pixel-perfect precision with a zero-order controller is bad for a FPS. It's why nobody else does it. It's like playing with heat/ammo off. You're removing all the factors that should balance you out so you get a much easier environment to play in.

I'm not in favor of a blanket CoF. Few are. A convergence mechanism that creates role warfare, IW and adds some complexity to being able to line up a pinpoint alpha would increase the skill ceiling and stretch out the skill curve. It will punish new players way more than competitive players who will do what they've always done, master it and move forward.

Convergence mechanic tied to IW. IW like PTS3. Remove gauss charge up, ghost heat, roll back the last 3 rounds of JJ nerfs. Start there, test and move forward.

[1453 R]

MischiefSC, on 12 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

(space snip)

So...lemme just quote myself from one of the last seventy convergence threads, since I really am just done with typing it up fresh every. Single. FREAKING. Time.

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

So Fup alluded to it, but I'm going to spell it out.

'Cone of Fire', as very nicely illustrated by the original poster (nice work on that by the way, Tex), is a concept that does not work with Mechwarrior Online because, while everyone is just super-ultra quick to go "YOU MEAN LIKE EVERY OTHER FPS HAS?!?!?!" whenever someone mentions that CoF would be problematic in MWO...there are numerous underlying mechanical differences between MWO and the Modern AAA Shooter (MAAAS). As I posted in the last convergence thread that p!ssed me off, and as I will now post here, and as will be posted in every other convergence thread I spot that manages to p!ss me off:

Imagine you're playing a MAAAS game, with the normal MAAAS cone of fire nonsense, except you are no longer able to ADS. You have no ability, whatsoever, to mitigate your hipfire inaccuracy, you're forced to hipfire every single shot you make.

Now, take that same hipfire-only MAAAS, and give everyone in it a bolt-action rifle. You can take one, singular shoot every second or two tops, and you cannot aim that shot. No ADS or scope, remember? You have a bolt gun you can hipfire, and your job is to kill other players with it.

Now. Take that hipfire-boltgun MAAAS, and give every player in it thirty times more health than they normally have. You have players with 3000% increased health, using bolt-action rifles to try and kill their enemies, which they are unable to aim.

Does that sound like a fun time to anyone here? Does that sound like the next MAAAS mega-hit series?

Because that's what cone of fire/Convergence Fix adherents are constantly, constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY trying to turn MWO into. A sad bad game where everyone is trying to kill people with un-aimable bolt-action rifles through several tons of armor.

You. Cannot. Remove. A. Player's. Ability. To. Aim. And. Hit. Their. Target. In. An. FPS.

The MAAAS uses several interlocking mechanics to allow players to mitigate or eliminate cone-of-fire inaccuracy and allow them to take aimed shots. I have seen zero MWO cone-of-fire proposals that include the same - they simply expect the player to eat the newly introduced, HSR-killing randomized inaccuracy with a smile on their face and go "THIS IS SO MUCH BETTER!" because they're salty and bitter over lasers actually being good for the first time in MWO history.

Well, guess what. Not so much.

Koniving, a long while back, introduced the perfect plan for defusing the whole pinpoint issue. The third-person camera's reticle bobs and sways with the natural movements of a 'Mech - simply introduce that reticle motion to the first-person cockpit view as well. Fire still goes exactly where it's aimed, as is only right and proper, but the aimpoint itself shifts with the motion of the machine - also right and proper. Players need to time their shots with the movements of their rides to hit precisely, and the motion of the reticle spreads laser damage naturally over the course of a shot. Clean, simple, does not invalidate HSR like randomized-cone-of-fire does, does not eliminate snipers from the game like randomized-cone-of-fire does, and is pretty much already in the system.

What's wrong with that? Why do we have to turn MWO into a sad bad MAAAS where nobody hits anything they aim at ever again?

[FupDup]

1453 R, on 12 February 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

Where was that "This is where the bad 'Mech touched me" graphic of Fup's?

It's not actually mine though, I didn't make it. I think Alistair Winter did since it appeared in his thread, but I can't 100% confirm.

[1453 R]

Ah, true. Regardless, many thanks Fup. I'd forgotten where it had popped up, but it's now what comes to mind for me every time I see someone sneer at "100% Instant Pixel-Perfect Convergence" as The Source of All Imbalance in MWO.

Clearly, that is where the bad 'Mech touched them.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 12 February 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Convergence mechanic tied to IW. IW like PTS3. Remove gauss charge up, ghost heat, roll back the last 3 rounds of JJ nerfs. Start there, test and move forward.

Sounds like you want the Gaussapult to make a comeback and pretty much force anything with non-clustered hardpoints that are near the cockpit to require target locks (read obscurity) to be remotely useful, poor King Crab, he is already not that great and people want to make him worse.

[Pjwned]

1453 R, on 12 February 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

So...lemme just quote myself from one of the last seventy convergence threads, since I really am just done with typing it up fresh every. Single. FREAKING. Time.

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

So Fup alluded to it, but I'm going to spell it out.

'Cone of Fire', as very nicely illustrated by the original poster (nice work on that by the way, Tex), is a concept that does not work with Mechwarrior Online because, while everyone is just super-ultra quick to go "YOU MEAN LIKE EVERY OTHER FPS HAS?!?!?!" whenever someone mentions that CoF would be problematic in MWO...there are numerous underlying mechanical differences between MWO and the Modern AAA Shooter (MAAAS). As I posted in the last convergence thread that p!ssed me off, and as I will now post here, and as will be posted in every other convergence thread I spot that manages to p!ss me off:

Imagine you're playing a MAAAS game, with the normal MAAAS cone of fire nonsense, except you are no longer able to ADS. You have no ability, whatsoever, to mitigate your hipfire inaccuracy, you're forced to hipfire every single shot you make.

Now, take that same hipfire-only MAAAS, and give everyone in it a bolt-action rifle. You can take one, singular shoot every second or two tops, and you cannot aim that shot. No ADS or scope, remember? You have a bolt gun you can hipfire, and your job is to kill other players with it.

Now. Take that hipfire-boltgun MAAAS, and give every player in it thirty times more health than they normally have. You have players with 3000% increased health, using bolt-action rifles to try and kill their enemies, which they are unable to aim.

Does that sound like a fun time to anyone here? Does that sound like the next MAAAS mega-hit series?

Because that's what cone of fire/Convergence Fix adherents are constantly, constantly, constantly, CONSTANTLY trying to turn MWO into. A sad bad game where everyone is trying to kill people with un-aimable bolt-action rifles through several tons of armor.

You. Cannot. Remove. A. Player's. Ability. To. Aim. And. Hit. Their. Target. In. An. FPS.

The MAAAS uses several interlocking mechanics to allow players to mitigate or eliminate cone-of-fire inaccuracy and allow them to take aimed shots. I have seen zero MWO cone-of-fire proposals that include the same - they simply expect the player to eat the newly introduced, HSR-killing randomized inaccuracy with a smile on their face and go "THIS IS SO MUCH BETTER!" because they're salty and bitter over lasers actually being good for the first time in MWO history.

Well, guess what. Not so much.

Koniving, a long while back, introduced the perfect plan for defusing the whole pinpoint issue. The third-person camera's reticle bobs and sways with the natural movements of a 'Mech - simply introduce that reticle motion to the first-person cockpit view as well. Fire still goes exactly where it's aimed, as is only right and proper, but the aimpoint itself shifts with the motion of the machine - also right and proper. Players need to time their shots with the movements of their rides to hit precisely, and the motion of the reticle spreads laser damage naturally over the course of a shot. Clean, simple, does not invalidate HSR like randomized-cone-of-fire does, does not eliminate snipers from the game like randomized-cone-of-fire does, and is pretty much already in the system.

What's wrong with that? Why do we have to turn MWO into a sad bad MAAAS where nobody hits anything they aim at ever again?

I was thinking about making a post almost exactly like this because this is pretty much exactly why cone of fire would be a terrible idea in MWO. Various people say it would be fine and you see cone of fire in other games where it works (well enough), but those games work and play a lot differently.

I still think convergence needs to be addressed, but not by cone of fire.

[wanderer]

What amazes me is the entire thing we do in MWO- accurate, perfect convergence to a single location- is what literally broke the tabletop game to the point of immediate errata.

Your average Clan pilot, using pulse lasers (accuracy bonus) + targeting computer could then hit a specific location and burn it out with the same ease as a normal pilot could...just hit the 'Mech somewhere.

Heck,I played through that. It was the crowning topper of what made many a grognard ban Clantech from their tables completely, and there's actually designs that were built around the concept in TROs, like the Sagittaire before the entire combo was tossed out in collective disgust because Clan or IS flavor, it basically broke the game.

We get to do the same thing without targeting computers being needed, all of our weapons are superaccurate by comparison, and we had to double armor AND slap in structure/armor buffs left and right to try and compensate for it. Which it doesn't too much, as we can still two-shot people. After all the buffs.

And people think it's -not- broken to be able to easily deny half of a unit's "HP" or more just because you point and click, or that it doesn't cripple weapons unable to do so by comparison? Really?

Must be skill.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 12 February 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Your average Clan pilot, using pulse lasers (accuracy bonus) + targeting computer could then hit a specific location and burn it out with the same ease as a normal pilot could...just hit the 'Mech somewhere.

Which is why they later changed it so Pulse Lasers couldn't target specific sections because of Pulse. This also a bit of a false comparison, since Pulse had a huge bonus that allowed them to pretty much ignore the specific location penalty, mainly because pulse was and pretty much always has been a cheesy weapon.

[wanderer]

Quote

Which is why they later changed it so Pulse Lasers couldn't target specific sections because of Pulse. This also a bit of a false comparison, since Pulse had a huge bonus that allowed them to pretty much ignore the specific location penalty, mainly because pulse was and pretty much always has been a cheesy weapon.

My point is that high accuracy weapons + the capacity to use that to target specific locations broke the damage system of Battletech, We have inherently high accuracy weapons- in effect, most direct-fire MWO weapons easily equal that - and don't even need multi-ton advanced targeting systems to pull it off.

Heck, we do it without so much as a sensor assist. This combination of precision effectively erases most of the TTK that having separate hit locations was designed to allow for in the first place.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 12 February 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

My point is that high accuracy weapons + the capacity to use that to target specific locations broke the damage system of Battletech

Again though, there is a difference between trying to compare. One of which not all weapons were exactly like pulse in accuracy, so the reason it broke TT is because everyone and their brother tried to abuse solely Pulse cheese.

wanderer, on 12 February 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Heck, we do it without so much as a sensor assist. This combination of precision effectively erases most of the TTK that having separate hit locations was designed to allow for in the first place.

Multiple hit sections aren't about improving TTK imo, it is about offering multiple ways to deal with mechs. The Catapult used to be a good example of that back in the days of the Splat, it forced you to choose how to deal with it best. Do you leg it? Do you side core it? Do you strip its arms? This is what adds depth to the game, not just buffed TTK from CoF forcing you to spread damage, when in fact TTK enforces the viability of brawling vs long range.

Too long of TTK (or powerful enough short range weapons) and brawling becomes the norm, too short of TTK and it is long range all the time. I do think TTK could potentially be a bit longer and the hit section design be improved (arms staying attached with side torso destruction, death only on CT/HD/Leg destruction no more side torso nonsense).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 February 2016 - 02:25 PM.

[wanderer]

Quote

One of which not all weapons were exactly like pulse in accuracy, so the reason it broke TT is because everyone and their brother tried to abuse solely Pulse cheese.

And here, replace "pulse" with "direct-fire pinpoint damage weapons" and you have the story of the MWO meta throughout the game- PPC, AC, laser, Gauss. All are high accuracy damage deliverers in that they can put all or the majority of their damage right on the targeted pixel when fired.

This kills the giant robot. Even if it isn't a Crab. Any other meta occupiers have been on account of rapidly hotfixed errors, like various lurmageddons or MG-of-death. Multiple hit sections -decrease- TTK if you can ignore a large portion of them, which is what the meta is built around. The more potential sections are damaged in a given attack, the higher TTK goes given X amount of damage.

Anyone who doesn't believe me, let's trade fire between a comparable UAC boat and an LRM boat. Bet the LRM boat goes boom from penetration first, even if they're standing still in the middle of an open field.

[CDLord HHGD]

I think this is a good idea worth testing out.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 11 February 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

um so mechs with lower actuators and arm hardpoints become dominant. everything else becomes obsolete?

great idea.

On the plus side, you will get less hill-humping. In addition, lateral peekaboo shots will be limited to 1 arm at a time.

Pjwned, on 11 February 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

If it's only arm weapons with lower arm actuators that auto converge then all that does is make everybody run mechs with LAA and everything else be damned.

Everybody? Really?

Edited by Mystere, 12 February 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 12 February 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

And here, replace "pulse" with "direct-fire pinpoint damage weapons" and you have the story of the MWO meta throughout the game- PPC, AC, laser, Gauss. All are high accuracy damage deliverers in that they can put all or the majority of their damage right on the targeted pixel when fired.

I like that you ignored the brawl meta where Splatcats and Splaturions were the go to mechs.

wanderer, on 12 February 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Anyone who doesn't believe me, let's trade fire between a comparable UAC boat and an LRM boat. Bet the LRM boat goes boom from penetration first, even if they're standing still in the middle of an open field.

This comparison makes no sense, of course a UAC boat is going to win in the middle of a field, the LRM boat wins trades when it is in cover but the UAC boat is not. Just ask Jman and how he piloted the HBK-4J, the point of having indirect fire weapons is to minimize exposure while still being useful.



Also, why is incredible TTK needed, again, I'm not against an increase, but why does it need to be so high like you seem to want?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 February 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 12 February 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

I like that you ignored the brawl meta where Splatcats and Splaturions were the go to mechs.

That was only a problem for someone who could not keep them away, especially those lacking in situational awareness.

Edited by Mystere, 12 February 2016 - 02:58 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 12 February 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

That was only a problem for someone who could not keep them away, especially those lacking in situational awareness.

Comp teams had the situational awareness, you just couldn't do enough range damage reliably to stop them in their tracks (if they also knew what they were doing). Remember, this is before HSR came into play.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 February 2016 - 03:00 PM.

[1453 R]

The point, Wanderer, is how is the pilot going to feel when his opponent has a cherry-red CT, he himself has orange armor over his CT...but he still dies because for a solid minute and a half, RNGsus decides he doesn't get to land the one shot he needs to finish his enemy off while the other guy manages to get the good rolls and hit him fine?

Yes, clearly an exaggerated outlier example...but it becomes a distinct possibility in the randomized-fire idiocy people going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and ON and ON and OOONNN about. Randomized fire, by definition, means the player is no longer in control of his machine in combat - he's giving it directions, not piloting it.

I get that nobody likes lasers. Everybody* wants lasers to go back to being awful horrible garbage weapons no one sane ever put on a 'Mech, like they were for the entire history of MWO prior to the Clan release. Nobody likes alpha strikes (and never mind that heat-neutral alpha smashers were pretty much standard in TT with any amount of customization, or in any time period post-3025). Nobody likes taking damage.

Unfortunately, nobody will like being unable to aim, either. And the whole "convergence only on lock!" doesn't work, because what happens when you lock a nearby Fatlass, converge your guns...then take a long-distance shot at the Spider 600 meters away behind the Fatlas? How does the game know you're not just taking a horribly-aimed shot at the Fatlas you're supposed to be converging on, rather than the Spider? or what happens if you're in a scrum, surrounded by targets on all sides, and are shooting everything that ends up in front of your guns with converged shots because the one target you have locked is in the middle of the pack?

Seriously. Just...stop. Stop trying to tell players that aiming is bad.



*and by 'everybody' I mean everybody else, because the very notion is utterly ridiculous and I don't know why so many people support it.

[wanderer]

Quote

I like that you ignored the brawl meta where Splatcats and Splaturions were the go to mechs.

Even splats benefit from convergence. In fact, loss of it hurts them more, as it increases effective spread and hence ups the amount of damage you have to generate to compensate.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 12 February 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

Even splats benefit from convergence. In fact, loss of it hurts them more, as it increases effective spread and hence ups the amount of damage you have to generate to compensate.

The point being, that you say that all damage hitting one-pixel is the bane of MWO, yet these weapons don't and never have.