149 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 13 February 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

And again, forcing people to stand still at long range for accurate fire is a laugh and a half. Clearly, being able to run at 100+ kph over irregular terrain while under fire should allow you to neatly put your lasers into exactly the same spot

You know what the only mech that actually runs 100+ kph while shooting long range laser fire is right? The Raven. None of the other mechs are going to be running 100kph across irregular terrain shoot ERLL into the same spot. ERLL fights are actually surprisingly inaccurate and easy to spread damage (even in comp). So really I'm going to chock this up to more hyperbolic crap.

wanderer, on 13 February 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Accurate long range fire is sniping. Less accurate long range fire is...not standing still. Or overheating. Or perhaps dumping every weapon in your 'Mech at a target you haven't even got on sensors. Or really doing anything other than standing still like a moron.

Maybe if sensors went out to the range some weapons did damage it would make more sense to require target lock, however that is not the case. Also, I fixed this for you.

wanderer, on 13 February 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

I'm still all for a system that doesn't cause you to whiff center-of-target shots inside of effective range- that is, you should be hitting SOMETHING on the 'Mech if you put the robot in the center crosshair and pull the trigger.. But when the meta is rapidly popping back and forth out of cover for blind shots...no, that shouldn't be THAT frickin' precise.

So you mean IS poke mechs? Cuz those are the only mechs that really minimize their exposure quite like that. I also wouldn't call them "blind" shots.

wanderer, on 13 February 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Nor should people be happily swapping off noscope YOLO killshots at the edge of effective range while nearly broiling their 'Mech, any more than they fire accurately while jumping around in the air now.

More hyperbole.

wanderer, on 13 February 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

It's either that or you end up massively buffing other weapon systems that -can't- precision alpha to bring them into line with the ones that can.

Convergence doesn't solve this dilemma, it will still be a problem regardless of CoF or convergence change, it is simply the nature of non-precise weapons.

wanderer, on 13 February 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Being able to converge enough damage to a certain efficiency seems to be what it takes to make a weapon viable in the meta's eyes. How do you fix the weapons that cannot to make them viable?

You up there ease of use or damage efficiency? Is that really so hard?

This doesn't magically go away with convergence removed, this will still be a problem.

wanderer, on 13 February 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Or do you just frickin' fix convergence, the ability that puts the meta-choices on top regardless of the flavor of the month?

If you think this fixes flavor of the month magically, you are woefully naive. There will still be a meta, and I almost guarantee it will be all about taking big ballistics with small weapons being practically worthless thanks to being unable to be boated effectively.

[wanderer]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 February 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

You know what the only mech that actually runs 100+ kph while shooting long range laser fire is right? The Raven. None of the other mechs are going to be running 100kph across irregular terrain shoot ERLL into the same spot. ERLL fights are actually surprisingly inaccurate and easy to spread damage (even in comp). So really I'm going to chock this up to more hyperbolic crap.

So, you mean all those Tier 1/Tier 2 builds on Metamechs for ERLL boats that go over 100kph aren't real?

Stormcrows, Cicadas, Shadow Cats, and Adders right there.

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Maybe if sensors went out to the range some weapons did damage it would make more sense to require target lock, however that is not the case. Also, I fixed this for you.

Or, you know, maybe sensors go out to the range weapons are -accurate-. Or you might have to use a module or equipment that enhanced sensor range to go with your long-range build.

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So you mean IS poke mechs? Cuz those are the only mechs that really minimize their exposure quite like that. I also wouldn't call them "blind" shots.

C'mon, I play em too. I'm sliding up/over, shooting, and I'm already back down before I get so much as a paperdoll- if I bother to lock. Which generally, you don't. Iron sights required only.

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Convergence doesn't solve this dilemma, it will still be a problem regardless of CoF or convergence change, it is simply the nature of non-precise weapons.

You up there ease of use or damage efficiency? Is that really so hard?

And here's the sticker- the game MWO was built on top of was built around non-precise weaponry. It breaks down when you make one set of weapons able to deliver reliable, constant, and massive damage to the same section over and over again with minimum fuss- which is what perfect convergence delivers. It -is- the heart of the meta, regardless of what flavor of weapons there is.

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This doesn't magically go away with convergence removed, this will still be a problem.

If you think this fixes flavor of the month magically, you are woefully naive. There will still be a meta, and I almost guarantee it will be all about taking big ballistics with small weapons being practically worthless thanks to being unable to be boated effectively.

Even then, there's only so many big ballistics you can stack close enough to get your happy little combo-shots. Damage goes down. TTK goes up. There's always a meta. Throttling it back, however? It'll do that nicely.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

So, you mean all those Tier 1/Tier 2 builds on Metamechs for ERLL boats that go over 100kph aren't real?

Just because they are on there, doesn't mean they get used, in fact all of those you just listed, are not really used outside of the Adder which saw use by EmP recently. It also doesn't run around the map spamming ERLL while at max speed, it hill humps, the speed just allows it to reposition faster.

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Or, you know, maybe sensors go out to the range weapons are -accurate-. Or you might have to use a module or equipment that enhanced sensor range to go with your long-range build.

Max sensor range with equipment/modules is what 1200m? Weapons already have damage decay past a certain range, is there really a point to making them inaccurate past that range? You might as well just cap the range at a certain point if you don't think people should be doing damage outside of that range.

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

C'mon, I play em too. I'm sliding up/over, shooting, and I'm already back down before I get so much as a paperdoll- if I bother to lock. Which generally, you don't. Iron sights required only.

What do you need paperdoll for? How does that make it blind?

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

And here's the sticker- the game MWO was built on top of was built around non-precise weaponry.

Let me stop you here, the game MWO is based on is just that, inspirational material, but do not think that it means we have to be exactly like it, that game was an RTS, this is an FPS, things are going to change regardless of whether you like or not.

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Damage goes down. TTK goes up. There's always a meta. Throttling it back, however? It'll do that nicely.

So this where I don't think you get it, TTK directly affects the viable tactics. TTK too high? Brawl all the time. TTK too low? Long range all the time. We have had both and currently, we are seeing a different mix so TTK is about right as far as I'm concerned, at least for the mechs that were buffed well that is. The bigger question to me is how to make this more consistent across all mechs rather than a select few that were just perfect for what they got.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 February 2016 - 10:39 AM.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 February 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

Just because they are on there, doesn't mean they get used, in fact all of those you just listed, are not really used outside of the Adder which saw use by EmP recently. It also doesn't run around the map spamming ERLL while at max speed, it hill humps, the speed just allows it to reposition faster.

They don't get used? That's odd. I seem to remember a 2xERLL Raven-3L eat a dual gauss shot to the face last night just as he crested a hill to poke and shoot. And another one got a 72-damage SRM alpha to the back from a sneaky light he did not see.

[wanderer]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 February 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

Just because they are on there, doesn't mean they get used, in fact all of those you just listed, are not really used outside of the Adder which saw use by EmP recently. It also doesn't run around the map spamming ERLL while at max speed, it hill humps, the speed just allows it to reposition faster.

So if you're not zipping around, what's the problem with lowering your movement speed to get more accurate fire ala the CoF proposals going round?

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Max sensor range with equipment/modules is what 1200m? Weapons already have damage decay past a certain range, is there really a point to making them inaccurate past that range? You might as well just cap the range at a certain point if you don't think people should be doing damage outside of that range.

I don't think they should be doing pinpoint, accurate damage at that range. You shouldn't be pumping firepower into a target outside of max sensor range and expecting it to be accurate OR serious damage, especially considering 1200m is literally outside the effective range of every weapon system in the game. Extreme range is just that- extremely unlikely to be accurate, extremely unlikely to cause serious damage to a target.

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What do you need paperdoll for? How does that make it blind?

My point is that we generally expose ourselves for so little time that sensors barely get an idea of the general location of opponents, never mind detailed information.

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Let me stop you here, the game MWO is based on is just that, inspirational material, but do not think that it means we have to be exactly like it, that game was an RTS, this is an FPS, things are going to change regardless of whether you like or not.

Yet we take damage to the same locational setup as TT, and we do so with far, FAR greater chances to hit and more importantly, to hit exactly the same spot over and over. We know the result of that damage modeling in TT, and it's a curse on MWO as well. It breaks the damage system. It becomes the sacred cow the meta revolves around over and over again.

It needs to be reduced to chopped steak, sauteed lightly over a charcoal flame, and tossed to the dogs.

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So this where I don't think you get it, TTK directly affects the viable tactics. TTK too high? Brawl all the time. TTK too low? Long range all the time. We have had both and currently, we are seeing a different mix so TTK is about right as far as I'm concerned, at least for the mechs that were buffed well that is.

Yes, TTK -does- do that to viable tactics. So, at what point does outside-of-brawl alphas serve enough damage to keep the game from Brawlwarrior online? Thirty? Forty? Fifty? Do we dread the tread of 12-man Atlas rushes in CW, or is it Pokewarrior Online, or just plain midrange laservomit? And if we increase TTK, can we roll back some of the massive structure/armor buffs we're using right now in the name of "balance" and help bring Clan 'Mechs towards more parity of survival time?

Taming the Death Stars of modern MWO would also settle a lot of the other things we've slapped into the game to "fix" things. Overquirking. Ghost heat. Maybe even *gasp* balancing out the spread-damage weapon systems a bit more.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 14 February 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

They don't get used? That's odd. I seem to remember a 2xERLL Raven-3L eat a dual gauss shot to the face last night just as he crested a hill to poke and shoot. And another one got a 72-damage SRM alpha to the back from a sneaky light he did not see.

I meant comp, but this is still anecdotal, did the RVN-3L even know what he was doing? Was he the first to die, or last alive? There is a bunch going on here that determines whether this sort of situation is unbalanced or not.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

So if you're not zipping around, what's the problem with lowering your movement speed to get more accurate fire ala the CoF proposals going round?

Because you are still moving, back and forth, you just aren't moving at 100kph doing it.

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

I don't think they should be doing pinpoint, accurate damage at that range. You shouldn't be pumping firepower into a target outside of max sensor range and expecting it to be accurate OR serious damage

If you think that is the case now, then you haven't played enough matches at that range to know that it isn't really accurate damage to begin with, most ERLL fights you can spread damage easy among the torso.

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

My point is that we generally expose ourselves for so little time that sensors barely get an idea of the general location of opponents, never mind detailed information.

You get the idea of general location from good scouting, not sensors, especially if the team has ECM.

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Yet we take damage to the same locational setup as TT, and we do so with far, FAR greater chances to hit and more importantly, to hit exactly the same spot over and over.

And this isn't a bad thing, because suddenly what you hit matters a lot, and when I say that, I mean what you target naturally for targets matters. Again, do you go legs, side torsos (XL check), CT, arms (splatapult), try for the head?

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Yes, TTK -does- do that to viable tactics. So, at what point does outside-of-brawl alphas serve enough damage to keep the game from Brawlwarrior online?

Well, I should add to my statement, it isn't just about how big of an alpha, it is also how easy it is to place it. If I can't hit accurately enough then I need a lot of damage to try and stop a push in its tracks before I get hot (which is what limits the DPS in a brawl, lower heat to damage ratio).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 February 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[Pjwned]

Imperius, on 13 February 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

You want realism?

Things to be added first! Before Anti-Convergence systems.
>Knockdowns
>Collisions
>Destructable Environments
>Cockpit Glass damage and weather effects
>Real vision modes not a filter that can be overridden by Gamma adjustment
>Sink spots in water
>Dynamic Weather
>More accurate DMG model
>Lose a leg the mech should actually just fall over

...I could go on forever... Thank god it's just a game right? Where perfect convergence > silly anti-convergence mechanic

There's no valid reason to say any of those things have priority over toning down convergence.

[wanderer]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 February 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Because you are still moving, back and forth, you just aren't moving at 100kph doing it.

Right- we're generally rocking back and forth even at "standing" engagements.

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If you think that is the case now, then you haven't played enough matches at that range to know that it isn't really accurate damage to begin with, most ERLL fights you can spread damage easy among the torso.

Which is why I don't really worry about extreme range fire being an issue. Put your crosshair on center of mass, pull the trigger. Even with imperfect convergence, the result will be similar damage spread.

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You get the idea of general location from good scouting, not sensors, especially if the team has ECM.

Right...but tell me, where does your knowhow of the general location of the target tie into precision-firing your weapons? Yeah, we rely on eyeballing targets in MWO, but why on earth does unassisted fire hit with perfect accuracy?

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And this isn't a bad thing, because suddenly what you hit matters a lot, and when I say that, I mean what you target naturally for targets matters. Again, do you go legs, side torsos (XL check), CT, arms (splatapult), try for the head?

And convergence not being perfect doesn't equal "random fire". It means it you fire at the legs, you'll likely hit the legs, rather than leg. Fire at the side? You'll likely hit the side torso, the arm, maybe the CT. CT? Across the torso locations and possibly some head damage. Arm? Likely arm/ST. Head? Being a super tiny target, generally you'll spray things much the same as a CT shot, perhaps with a better chance of head damage.

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Well, I should add to my statement, it isn't just about how big of an alpha, it is also how easy it is to place it. If I can't hit accurately enough then I need a lot of damage to try and stop a push in its tracks before I get hot (which is what limits the DPS in a brawl, lower heat to damage ratio).

On the other hand, that brawler's going to need more time to kill -you-, too. Because even his barrage isn't going to be about that AC/20 + 20+ SRMs all pointed at the exact same spot- it'll spread more, too. More time to kill = tougher to get that kill before heat becomes a critical factor and slows things down.

And that's the point. Slow things down. Spread the damage out- not to the point of insane spread, but so some of that barrage ends up cooking multiple locations over time vs. simply coring through a single portion with yellow armor damage next door.

Being able to easily kill a 'Mech by nothing but repeated alpha strikes to the front from zero damage before you cook your 'Mech (or suffering some sort of heat penalties, but that's the broken heat scale, not convergence) shouldn't be happening- but it does. Easily. Often.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

Right- we're generally rocking back and forth even at "standing" engagements.

The word you are looking for is static, not standing. You don't stand still when hill humping or side poking.

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

Which is why I don't really worry about extreme range fire being an issue. Put your crosshair on center of mass, pull the trigger. Even with imperfect convergence, the result will be similar damage spread.

Actually, the smallest amount of spread impacts extreme range more than anything, if it isn't a problem, it shouldn't be affected.

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

Right...but tell me, where does your knowhow of the general location of the target tie into precision-firing your weapons? Yeah, we rely on eyeballing targets in MWO, but why on earth does unassisted fire hit with perfect accuracy?

Neuro-helmets, idk? Does it really matter what the fluff reasoning is, since both ways could be fluffed?

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

And convergence not being perfect doesn't equal "random fire". It means it you fire at the legs, you'll likely hit the legs, rather than leg. Fire at the side? You'll likely hit the side torso, the arm, maybe the CT. CT? Across the torso locations and possibly some head damage. Arm? Likely arm/ST. Head? Being a super tiny target, generally you'll spray things much the same as a CT shot, perhaps with a better chance of head damage.

I think you missed my point, if you take away the ability to precisely aim, you take away some of the depth in the game because I'm going to aim more towards what increases my chances to hit, not necessarily the best target.
Example, for the Wolverine, that arm is a lot more safe because the torso is a much bigger target and I don't want to risk a shot missing the arm. While it may be slightly easier to disarm because of perfect aim, it adds a bit of depth to the game by having mechs that aren't always disarmed the same (by death), and shots going where you aim them is very much a part of this.

Also, hitting the other leg can be a problem when the enemy mech is legged, thanks to damage transfer reducing damage, hitting a dead leg repeatedly thanks to CoF can easily cost you a match (there is a reason good pilots shift so that you can only hit the dead leg).

wanderer, on 14 February 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

On the other hand, that brawler's going to need more time to kill -you-, too.

So here is the problem though, brawlers naturally have better DPS and better damage to heat ratio, so your only advantage as a long range mech, is to do as much damage as possible before they can get in close and abuse their higher DPS. You take away that, and you remove long range as a thing. That's the whole point.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 February 2016 - 04:05 PM.