96 replies to this topic

[ironcloud]

Volthorne, you are looking at the game in a number crunching view only.

I personally never touched the LRM hunchback, i do prefer the main AC20 for what the hunch is most known for.
Same goes for the awsome and its ppc/erppc's.
By that standart the ac20 hunch is useless and should be removed from game and only available hunch would be the formidable quirked lrm 10 speed launcher. That is the danger of excessive quirks.

Compromise - If quirks cant be removed then reduce their bunus significantly. Adding a couple of armor points on a chassis seems far more fair then giving it a desproportional advantage.



And why do we keep trying to match same tonnage mechs from IS and Clan tech ?

I say again, if drops are managed by a cbill value as well, you wont see timber wolf vs orion, cicada vs shadowcat, atlas vs direwolf.
Same Cbill value for both teams and you will not see that many assault and heaviest clan mechs on a match.

Edited by ironcloud, 12 February 2016 - 03:40 AM.

[DovisKhan]

Wolfways, on 12 February 2016 - 03:26 AM, said:

I was talking about clan lights. There's a reason you only see Arctic Cheetahs while you see lots of Jenners (and IIc's), Firestarters, Spiders, Ravens, Wolfhounds (occasionally), Locusts (more recently for some reason).
I was playing a Kit Fox today and was surprised when there was another one in a match.

Speed is very important for light mechs, something that the majority of clan lights don't have.

Edit: Just remembered I see the occasional Adder.

That's cause Arctic cheater can brawl even some poorer IS mediums, like CIcada for example.

Jenner IIC is a Clan mech as well btw


Far from all IS lights are fast, Urbie - slow, Commando - slow, Panther - Slow, Wolfhound - slow, in fact, half of them are slow, same as with Clans, it's just that there are 2x less Clan mechs overall, so the contrast is exaggerated.


^ So in contrast to those, Kit Fox is actually great, here's a random build http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0cdc88fce27c258

It has 24 burst damage and 3.2 dps in MGs, 4 MGs = 2 IS Medium Lasers in terms of dps


So you have 7 medium IS lasers worth of dps and better heat management, with the same survivability and speed AND a Clan ECM, that's 2x better than IS, AND JJ, AND it's quirked pretty heavily, AND 3 AMS that make it SSRM RESISTANT! how is Kit Fox bad? It's worse than Arctic Cheater, yes, but that's cause it's an OP mech


So how is IS OP again?

Edited by DovisKhan, 12 February 2016 - 03:54 AM.

[ironcloud]

JC Daxion, on 12 February 2016 - 03:03 AM, said:

.. though i would also loved to see sized hard points added too. Would see much more variety on mechs on the field.

Interesting, what do you mean by sized hard points ?

[van Uber]

ironcloud, on 12 February 2016 - 03:36 AM, said:

Volthorne, you are looking at the game in a number crunching view only.

I personally never touched the LRM hunchback, i do prefer the main AC20 for what the hunch is most known for.
Same goes for the awsome and its ppc/erppc's.
By that standart the ac20 hunch is useless and should be removed from game and only available hunch would be the formidable quirked lrm 10 speed launcher. That is the danger of excessive quirks.

Compromise - If quirks cant be removed then reduce their bunus significantly. Adding a couple of armor points on a chassis seems far more fair then giving it a desproportional advantage.



And why do we keep trying to match same tonnage mechs from IS and Clan tech ?

I say again, if drops are managed by a cbill value as well, you wont see timber wolf vs orion, cicada vs shadowcat, atlas vs direwolf.
Same Cbill value for both teams and you will not see that many assault and heaviest clan mechs on a match.

Have you ever played with un-quirked mechs at all?

What it did was leaving a lot of chassis to rust in the garage. Only those with the best hardpoints were ever used. Certain chassis became viable/non-viable when weapon mechanics changed. But mostly, the large part of chassis collected dust and the Hunchback was always inferior to the Shadow Hawk.

I don't want that back, thank you very much.

Also, balancing by economy is a terrible mechanic and is void after a player spends a certain amount of time with the game.

[Wolfways]

DovisKhan, on 12 February 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

That's cause Arctic cheater can brawl even some poorer IS mediums, like CIcada for example.

IS lights can outbrawl mediums too.

Quote

Jenner IIC is a Clan mech as well btw

Yeah I know, but I don't really class IIc's as "real clan".

Quote

Far from all IS lights are fast, Urbie - slow, Commando - slow, Panther - Slow, Wolfhound - slow, in fact, half of them are slow, same as with Clans, it's just that there are 2x less Clan mechs overall, so the contrast is exaggerated.


^ So in contrast to those, Kit Fox is actually great, here's a random build http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0cdc88fce27c258

It has 24 burst damage and 3.2 dps in MGs, 4 MGs = 2 IS Medium Lasers in terms of dps


So you have 7 medium IS lasers worth of dps and better heat management, with the same survivability and speed AND a Clan ECM, that's 2x better than IS, AND JJ, AND 3 AMS that make it SSRM RESISTANT! how is Kit Fox bad? It's worse than Arctic Cheater, yes, but that's cause it's an OP mech


So how is IS OP again?

At least IS can choose engine size. A slow light is an easy kill, and I don't remember the last time I saw an IS light that wasn't doing 130kph+. Okay except for the occasional Raven...and the Urbie but that's not really a real mech

Saw a player in a Locust today with no armour and just an ERLL. He said he was trying an experiment. After his team died he constantly ran through the remainder of our team (5+) while we blasted him to bits. It took ages! No idea what was going on but that was just stupid

[DovisKhan]

Wolfways, on 12 February 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

IS lights can outbrawl mediums too.


Yeah I know, but I don't really class IIc's as "real clan".



At least IS can choose engine size. A slow light is an easy kill, and I don't remember the last time I saw an IS light that wasn't doing 130kph+. Okay except for the occasional Raven...and the Urbie but that's not really a real mech

Saw a player in a Locust today with no armour and just an ERLL. He said he was trying an experiment. After his team died he constantly ran through the remainder of our team (5+) while we blasted him to bits. It took ages! No idea what was going on but that was just stupid

You must have played in the Oceanic server, cause it's either lag or you were all incredibly unlucky to miss him, cause a single double AC20 punch is enough to take down even fully armored and healthy Locust.


Also, Panther, Wolfhound, Commando, Firestarter, if they want to run as fast as lets say Kit Fox AND have similar firepower, they need o run an XL engine and that makes them only half as durable, since IS XL engines make you die with a sinble side torso burst.


So what I'm saying - don't call for faction wide nerfs/buffs, cause only some chassis need sfixing and those are on both sides

Edited by DovisKhan, 12 February 2016 - 04:21 AM.

[ironcloud]

Balancing qick play maches by ton/tier and cbill values is a viable option.

lets say the machmaker starts looking for players to add to a mach pool in order to fill each team with 100 000 000 cbill worth, still distributing an even tonnage throughout, and tier pilots accordingly.

Same goes for CW, this time each player has a 4 mech deck currently with 160 - 260 tons to fill, just add a default cbill value for all players.


Adding a twist here, for a future implement, would be the possibility to have units increase the cbill value for an attack period (7 hour window if im not mistaken) spending unit cbills from their vaults, in a way that it is not too excessive.

[DovisKhan]

ironcloud, on 12 February 2016 - 05:00 AM, said:

Balancing qick play maches by ton/tier and cbill values is a viable option.

lets say the machmaker starts looking for players to add to a mach pool in order to fill each team with 100 000 000 cbill worth, still distributing an even tonnage throughout, and tier pilots accordingly.

Same goes for CW, this time each player has a 4 mech deck currently with 160 - 260 tons to fill, just add a default cbill value for all players.


Adding a twist here, for a future implement, would be the possibility to have units increase the cbill value for an attack period (7 hour window if im not mistaken) spending unit cbills from their vaults, in a way that it is not too excessive.

You'd get really inaccurate matches, since modules cost way more than mechs do

All modules can cost up to 18 million, so lets say you run a crappy Urbie, but with all modules and you'd get matched against a Dire Wolf

Lets say they don't count modules


It still doesn't work, since Clan mechs cost 2x more than IS mechs, unless the IS mech has a DHS, Endo and an XL engine, however if you do take into account those upgrades, you will have upgraded Lights going against non upgraded IS heavies and there is no competition at who's gonna win again.



This could only work if they normalized the prices for all mechs in their respective weight classes and IS would cost the same as Clan with Endo, DHS, Fero being free swappable options.

Edited by DovisKhan, 12 February 2016 - 05:10 AM.

[Catra Lanis]

Imagine an uneven ground, you fill the depressions and holes so you get a smooth surface. This was the intention from the beginning as far as I've been told, to bring bad mechs up a bit so they were viable or at least not useless.

The mistake was that insted they poured an equal amount of soil on every spot so the new ground is just as uneven as the old, just a bit higher. The relative distance between mech X and Y has not shrunk.

They should have given the worse mechs small quirks to begin with and not touched the best and then if neccesary give them even more if it wasn't enough.

[Lily from animove]

Catra Lanis, on 12 February 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

Imagine an uneven ground, you fill the depressions and holes so you get a smooth surface. This was the intention from the beginning as far as I've been told, to bring bad mechs up a bit so they were viable or at least not useless.

The mistake was that insted they poured an equal amount of soil on every spot so the new ground is just as uneven as the old, just a bit higher. The relative distance between mech X and Y has not shrunk.

They should have given the worse mechs small quirks to begin with and not touched the best and then if neccesary give them even more if it wasn't enough.

feels more like they dropped soil and bombs form an airplane 1000m above said ground and just hoped the reuslt would be even.

[ironcloud]

DovisKhan, on 12 February 2016 - 05:09 AM, said:

...
Lets say they don't count modules

It still doesn't work, since Clan mechs cost 2x more than IS mechs, unless the IS mech has a DHS, Endo and an XL engine, however if you do take into account those upgrades, you will have upgraded Lights going against non upgraded IS heavies and there is no competition at who's gonna win again.
...

Running a quick number check, an orion with 4 med lasers, 1 AC20 2SRM6 std 300 engine, DHS and endo steel costs 9 000 000

can be "paired" with a shadowcat for that value +- 10 000 000

get the laser durations back to normal and fight it off.


Just giving the orion build as an example.


Cap both teams with a valid Cbill drop value and it evens up.

[Almond Brown]

TheBlackMegadeus, on 11 February 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

when are we getting strings then?

After Quarks obviously. Come on man. Cart -> Horse type stuff.

[Coralld]

Wolfways, on 11 February 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

I don't. Players suck.


I wouldn't as players would try to avoid it in any way possible. See above.


What effort? More IS mechs vs. less clan mechs. It's called teamwork.

So what you want is to remove all forms of balance factors between Clans vs IS that were in TT and lore other than the numerical advantage even though the only way the IS stood a chance of winning against the Clan in TT and lore was to have a 10 to 1 advantage and thats including Zelbrigon and BV being taken into account.
But no, cant have that because people suck and they would find away around it, and your solution is for IS players to use team work to win because a single Clan mech in TT and lore could beat an IS lance on it's own, however, you want to remove Zelbrigon which specific state's that Clans men can not gang up, tag team, focuse fire or use overall team work as a whole against enemies.
So Clans can also use team work to their advantage as well even though they were never suppose to and was a major balancing factor and you want to throw that out the window.

Another words you want the Clan to be even more OP than they were in TT and lore.

Ok, I think it's safe to put you in the "People with such horrible ideas that they should never be listened to as well as probably should not be allowed to procreate or vote" box.

[Wolfways]

Coralld, on 12 February 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Ok, I think it's safe to put you in the "People with such horrible ideas that they should never be listened to as well as probably should not be allowed to procreate or vote" box.

I never said anything about an "idea" or balance. I just said I'd like asymmetrical matches and you made up all that other ****.

[Coralld]

Wolfways, on 12 February 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

I never said anything about an "idea" or balance. I just said I'd like asymmetrical matches and you made up all that other ****.

And when you bring up asymmetrical game play and point to TT and lore which is ultimately where this idea comes from, you also have to look at the rules that were involved in this form of game play.

As you said, you mention nothing about balance which tells me you either did not think things completely through and what might be involved or you simply did not care because you just want your asymmetrical game play and damn anything else.

As for me making sh*t up, how can you say that when you want to have asymmetrical game play using TT and lore for reasons, and when I bring up some of the balance mechanics that went on, particularly about Zelbrigon because your argument was that IS needed team work to win like they did in TT and lore. Remember, Clan do not use team work in TT and lor per the rules of Zelbrigon, which was one of the big advantages the IS had over the Clan, and by you saying 'naw, screw it because people suck and will find a way around it' you have effectively took away that one big advantage the IS had.

I'm sorry but reading what you are saying just screams that you really do not give a sh*t what the consequences may be as long as you get your way.

Edited by Coralld, 12 February 2016 - 01:48 PM.

[Wolfways]

Coralld, on 12 February 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

And when you bring up asymmetrical game play and point to TT and lore which is ultimately where this idea comes from, you also have to look at the rules that were involved in this form of game play.

As you said, you mention nothing about balance which tells me you either did not think things completely through and what might be involved or you simply did not care because you just want your asymmetrical game play and damn anything else.

As for me making sh*t up, how can you say that when you want to have asymmetrical game play using TT and lore for reasons, and when I bring up some of the balance mechanics that went on, particularly about Zelbrigon because your argument was that IS needed team work to win like they did in TT and lore. Remember, Clan do not use team work in TT and lor per the rules of Zelbrigon, which was one of the big advantages the IS had over the Clan, and by you saying 'naw, screw it because people suck and will find a way around it' you have effectively took away that one big advantage the IS had.

I'm sorry but reading what you are saying just screams that you really do not give a sh*t what the consequences may be as long as you get your way.

I never mentioned balance because 1) It's not my job, and 2) Pgi will not/cannot do it anyway. I only said I'd like asymmetrical matches. How they are balanced would be up to pgi.

I know asymmetrical matches will not happen because, as pgi have already said, players will flock to the superior clan mechs because most players are not team players and only think of the game as "me vs. them".
Yes I'd like matches to be asymmetrical. I'd also liked them to be balanced no matter how many IS or clan mechs are involved. I just don't see the point of going into how to balance it as I very much doubt that pgi will ever do it.

Also, my argument wasn't that IS would need teamwork, it was that everyone should need teamwork, but as I and pgi already pointed out most players only care about "me" rather than "us".

Edited by Wolfways, 12 February 2016 - 03:29 PM.

[Deathlike]

Spider-5V said:

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