16 replies to this topic

[Jhembryn]

So, yes, I have read LOTS of other threads, watched quite a few videos, but I still have a few questions. I suppose they're all "opinion" questions, so I'm asking for opinions. I've seen threads kinda related but didn't want to necro a thread to throw my question on top of an old thread.


Lasers - Given the choice, more standard Medium Lasers, or fewer Medium Pulse Lasers? Specifically in this case I'm looking at the HBK-4P (C) which currently mounts 8 Medium Lasers, but the question applies broadly.

Missiles - Given the space for a Small rack, and the choice between an SRM 6 pack with Artemis, or a Streak 2, and include a Beacon to counter ECM?

AWS - Worth it on Assault/heavy mechs? I'm thinking mainly to counter the nasty rain of missiles that come down from Clan LRMs.

Heat Sinks and Structure - Back from my BattleTech/MechWarrior days, I remember ALWAYS going with Endo Steel and Double Heat Sinks whenever humanly possible, does that also apply here? Every mech I've done it on, I've been able to improve the heat management ratio, so seems like a no-brainer, but I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Lastly... is it odd that I'm almost afraid to screw with some of the mechs? I'm afraid I'm going to screw up and make them LESS viable. It was a little different for me back during beta, etc... especially now since I've spent my MC that I got for being a Founder on quite a few mechs. I keep telling myself, "Self, the only way to learn is to monkey with it and screw up, and learn what doesn't work." Guess I solved that one for myself.

Thanks!

I just want to add, the community in-game has been mostly amazingly helpful, especially compared to other similar style games. I've only had a handfull of "Bad" experiences where people automatically went to the "you guys suck, thanks for losing" track. I especially really like it when someone experienced gets on voice comms and leads us to victory!

[Wedge Red Leader]

IMHO

Lasers - normal lasers give you more range but require more skill to keep focused because of the burn time, the bigger the laser the more pronounced the effect. Also, more burn time means the more you need to be exposed for full damage. I'd let the mechs quirks guide me a bit, and what range I like to fight at.

Missiles- the current meta answer is SRM6 with artemis, srms are unguided so no other gear required
On mechs that are heavy in guided missiles like streaks or long range missiles I can take or leave artemis, but I almost always have BAP, or TAG.

AMS - the bigger the mech the more important, that said the more skilled the player the less important it is, generally speaking.
To nail it down for you, a HBK as a new player = recommend fully if you have a spare 1-1.5 tons,
an experienced player with a radar depravation module = almost never

Double heat sinks = must do on any good mech
Endo-steel = almost always a must do for advanced builds
FF armor = rarely used, and only after the endo steel upgrade

I look to Metamechs for a baseline build, and I adapt to my skill and pocket book. One word of wisdom, almost all posted builds (any where) are for elited/mastered chassis. If you run them unskilled you will over heat badly. Therefore, take a "good" build minus 1 weapon, and add as many heat sinks as you can until elited.

Edited by Wedge Red Leader, 11 February 2016 - 04:27 PM.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

specific to the Hunchie 4P, the medium lasers make more sense, as the quirks favor them.

That said, at the end of the day it all comes down to you. Experiment and see what works best for you.

And yes, DHS and Endo almost always. Only time I ever skip on endo is on certain Assault builds where the space is the most important to me.

[mailin]

One caveat on the Hunchback 4P though. Unless PGI changed something firing more that 6 medium lasers at once will impose a heat penalty called ghost heat. So, if you take the 4P and load it with 9 medium lasers, have them in seperate weapon groups and do not fire them all too close together.

Good luck.

[Tickdoff Tank]

You could try out this Hunch 4P loadout, it is my standard for the 4P and I have had great success with it. [smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...af58a51cbead501[/smurfy]

[Tim East]

For my money:

Lasers: Pulse, any and every time you can afford them for IS. Clan...it varies. Usually pulse, but ERs are so light, and your burn time is soooo long anyway that you may as well just wait for stationary targets and use ERs in some instances.

Missiles: Arguably neither of those. I don't really use Artemis with SRMs unless they are streaks. I tend to favor SRM4s or 6s without artemis, or Streaks with BAP and artemis both, since streaks benefit from artemis without costing from it.

AMS: Depends more on your speed than your size. If you slot radar dep, you'll need it less as well, but I like to have it on stuff that goes slower than 80kph if I can afford the tonnage. I've seen it work surprisingly well in concert though with a group of 'Mechs that all have it, so it's not really a waste of tonnage unless you're in a light and you just leave it on all the time.

Endo: Every time. I can't think of a single 'Mech I use that I needed the slots more than the tonnage.

Doubles: If you're going to use energy weapons, you'll almost always need it. Period. If you're going to use anything but gauss, you want it. Usually. There exist SHS builds for stuff, and I even drive a Zeus designed to take advantage of the critical efficiency of SHS, but it's not the easy road to design for, and it's not the easy road to drive. I wrote an in-depth post on my SHS thoughts somewhere, but I can't seem to recall where to link it.

My advice on screwing with 'Mech design, is to do it. Period. Every time. I love to try new things on old chassis, and if you never sell anything you'll eventually get to the point where you can outfit new 'Mechs for free when you get them. Trying stuff is how metas are made and broken.

[Takashi Uchida]

Just gonna chime in on the missile question: Missiles - Given the space for a Small rack, and the choice between an SRM 6 pack with Artemis, or a Streak 2, and include a Beacon to counter ECM?

Streaks sound great on paper, I mean it's a guaranteed hit (provided your target is in range, AMS doesn't shoot it down, and there are no obstacles in the flight path). For this game though, they generally need to be taken in fairly large groups to be effective. And this is due to the damage spreading mechanic.

All missiles are "spread damage" weapons (as opposed to a pinpoint weapon like a Gauss or Inner Sphere single-shot AC20). With non-streak SRMs, you can at least aim in the general direction of the component you want to hit. And with the addition of Artemis (in my opinion, very helpful on SRM-6s but SRM-4s already have a decently tight grouping without it), your spread will be reduced. Streaks on the other hand will target a random component on the enemy.

So if I'm choosing between a single SSRM2 and a single SRM-6, I'm gonna go with the SRM-6 pretty much every time. In general if I'm taking streaks, I need at least 12+ tubes to justify the decision. This means I'm NEVER taking them in Inner Sphere mechs, as they are limited to packs of 2 (I'm curious about the upcoming Archer with a zillion missile slots though). Once upon a time when SRM hit registration was really bad, and the Inner Sphere Streak-2 saw some use on fast mechs with 3+ missile hardpoints. Nowadays they are almost never seen. As a Founder you might remember when SRMs were superpowered because of splash issues, then nerfed to crap with hitreg problems when they tried to balance it. During that period some players avoided SRMs and took streaks instead. Presently though, SRMs are quite decent and the Inner Sphere Streak-2 is just too wimpy to compete with anything.

Clan streaks are another story. If you've got a clan mech like the TImberwolf, Stormcrow, or Maddog that can take multiple clan Streak SRM-4s and 6s, they are a pretty good weapon. They have quite good range and are excellent at killing lights (doesn't matter as much if you spread damage, their components have such little health anyway). Running a dedicated streakboat is a good way to inflate your numbers. For example when I run a Stormcrow or Maddog loaded with streaks, the chances of me going for 1000 damage dramatically increases, and I'll break 800 damage with very little effort. Just got to bear in mind that all that damage is spread around, and if your allies aren't focusing the enemies you've weakened, it means little.

SRMs are worth using though. Atlas brawler with 18-24 tubes worth is fantastic and will crush any mech with a few salvos when paired with an AC20. More nimble mechs like the Griffins also do well with SRMs for a weight efficient big punch.

Edited by Takashi Uchida, 11 February 2016 - 11:38 PM.

[Leone]

Jhembryn, on 11 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

Lasers - Given the choice, more standard Medium Lasers, or fewer Medium Pulse Lasers?

I believe you are looking at the issue in the wrong light. All the weapons~! Question is, Medium pulse, or mediums with heatsinks. For most builds, the extra heat capacity wins.

Jhembryn, on 11 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

Missiles - between an SRM 6 pack with Artemis, or a Streak 2,

Me, I'm deadfire all the way, but then, I also eschew Artemis.

Jhembryn, on 11 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

AWS - Worth it on Assault/heavy mechs?

I'll assume ams. Usually yes. Even if you don't need the coverage, it helps the team. Not all of us know how to hop from cover to cover, an there are pople out there worse than you. Ams is a team friendly addition.

Jhembryn, on 11 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

Heat Sinks and Structure - I remember ALWAYS going with Endo Steel and Double Heat Sinks whenever humanly possible, does that also apply here?

Leonian build considerations are... different than standard. I will no wax poetic about all the difference, but suffice to say, with a large mech built for close range you can enter a mech design phase where you have the spare tonnage for more single heat sinks than you have space for doubles. I haven't completely decided one way or t'other which works better.

Remember, any good build should be able to be run unbasiced an do okay. If your using the ability to hide an cool as a crutch, your build fails the Leonian Brawling Test. Good luck, an have fun in the mechlab.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 11 February 2016 - 11:46 PM.

[Hawk_eye]

Jhembryn, on 11 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

So, yes, I have read LOTS of other threads, watched quite a few videos, but I still have a few questions. I suppose they're all "opinion" questions, so I'm asking for opinions. I've seen threads kinda related but didn't want to necro a thread to throw my question on top of an old thread.


Lasers - Given the choice, more standard Medium Lasers, or fewer Medium Pulse Lasers? Specifically in this case I'm looking at the HBK-4P (C) which currently mounts 8 Medium Lasers, but the question applies broadly.

Well, it really depends.
If you can mount 6 MPL, sure, go for it.
If it comes down to mounting 4 MPL or 6 ML? ML it is
MLs are also a good supplement to LPL since their range synergy is better than with MPL
Note: Since you generate ghost-heat with more than 6 ML or MPL, Going 6 ML + 2 MPL might be a good idea (I haven´t actually played a Hunchback, so take all what I say with a grain of salt)

Personally, I try to put in at least _one_ longer ranged weapon, like a LPL or LL (preferably 2) so I´m not completely screwed when I end up on open maps like Alpine.

Jhembryn, on 11 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

Missiles - Given the space for a Small rack, and the choice between an SRM 6 pack with Artemis, or a Streak 2, and include a Beacon to counter ECM?

IS Streaks are pretty crap. Only way to use them (IMO) is to boat them. From 3+ on, they kinda make sense. This also lessens the impact of the Beagle, you are pretty much forced to take (1 SSRM-2 + BAP = 3 tons + ammo to shoot 2 missiles? Thanks, but no thanks)
Throw in the fact that you can shoot SRMs "on the go" so to speak, while you have to wait for a lock to shoot SSRMs and yeah, unless you want to hunt lights and boat SSRMs, go with normal SRMs.

Jhembryn, on 11 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

AWS - Worth it on Assault/heavy mechs? I'm thinking mainly to counter the nasty rain of missiles that come down from Clan LRMs.

Personally, I mount an AMS on any 50+ ton mech that can. 1 AMS + a ton of ammo is just 1.5 tons. That won´t break a build and if everyone in the lance did that, you´d be pretty much immune to anything up to an LRM-20 and seriously diminish the damage from everything larger.

Note: AMS also works vs. NARC and a lance with 4 AMS is almost immune to a sneaky light putting NARC on you, unless he enters point blank range (with all the consequences that entails for him). That can come in quite handy on the new Polar Highland map.

Jhembryn, on 11 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

Heat Sinks and Structure - Back from my BattleTech/MechWarrior days, I remember ALWAYS going with Endo Steel and Double Heat Sinks whenever humanly possible, does that also apply here? Every mech I've done it on, I've been able to improve the heat management ratio, so seems like a no-brainer, but I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Yep, Endo + DHS is the no-brainer of MWO

Jhembryn, on 11 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

Lastly... is it odd that I'm almost afraid to screw with some of the mechs? I'm afraid I'm going to screw up and make them LESS viable. It was a little different for me back during beta, etc... especially now since I've spent my MC that I got for being a Founder on quite a few mechs. I keep telling myself, "Self, the only way to learn is to monkey with it and screw up, and learn what doesn't work." Guess I solved that one for myself.

Thanks!

I just want to add, the community in-game has been mostly amazingly helpful, especially compared to other similar style games. I've only had a handfull of "Bad" experiences where people automatically went to the "you guys suck, thanks for losing" track. I especially really like it when someone experienced gets on voice comms and leads us to victory!

[Rogue Jedi]

for missiles I prefer SRM4 over SRM6+A if you have suffiscent hardpoints 2 SRM4 chainfired is as accurate as SRM6+A and has almost double the DPS ^{(2.666 missiles per second 4or 2 SRM4 vs 1.5 missiles per seconds for 1 SRM6+a both weigh 4 tons without ammo)} for the same weight.

[Jhembryn]

Thanks for all the responses! I feel a lot better about what I've been doing, and think (generally) I'm on the right track.

A tinkering I go!

[Jhembryn]

Oh, and sorry if the question about SRMs didn't quite make sense. That was about a decision I was making on an Atlas which already has LRM + Artemis installed (which I did because I find that most times I use missiles in that mech, I'm in LoS).

[Jack Booted Thug]

Takashi Uchida, on 11 February 2016 - 11:36 PM, said:

Streaks sound great on paper, I mean it's a guaranteed hit (provided your target is in range, AMS doesn't shoot it down, and there are no obstacles in the flight path). For this game though, they generally need to be taken in fairly large groups to be effective. And this is due to the damage spreading mechanic.

AMS does in fact shoot down streaks. I believe NS started the 12 firestarter with double ams rush just to nullify streak crows, which worked very well.

It only works well though when you have a bunch of AMS mechs and aren't face tanking a streak boat.

[Koniving]

AMS or Anti-Missile System will shoot down:
LRMs.
SRMs.
Streak SRMs.

So yes, I think they are worth bringing on a heavy or assault mech.

[Hawk_eye]

Koniving, on 14 February 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

AMS or Anti-Missile System will shoot down:
LRMs.
SRMs.
Streak SRMs.

So yes, I think they are worth bringing on a heavy or assault mech.

I´m pretty sure it works vs. NARC too

[Koniving]

Antecursor Venatus, on 14 February 2016 - 10:59 PM, said:

I´m pretty sure it works vs. NARC too

I don't see NARCs often enough to know for sure. I try not to say anything unless I actually know it.

[Hawk_eye]

Well, I haven´t _seen_ it shoot down NARCs, only read a couple of times that it does (shouldn´t something like this be documented somewhere?)

Ah, found the reference:
http://mwo.gamepedia..._Missile_System

I don´t know how accurate that is, of course.