366 replies to this topic

[NocturnalBeast]

Sereglach, on 13 February 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

You said this:



In regards to this:



Over this:

You were unable to quote any post that I made regarding that flamers should "do 0 damage to Mechs". Please do not paraphrase me to try and prove me wrong, especially when you are ignoring how the (Battletech) game designers intended the role of the flamer to be in the game.

Edited by Ed Steele, 13 February 2016 - 03:45 PM.

[Koshirou]

Wintersdark, on 13 February 2016 - 01:15 PM, said:

But the only mechs that were severely hurt by the range nerf weren't mechs that drive clan vs. IS balance.

I beg your pardon? QKD? BLR-1S?

Of course, even if that were true, it wouldn't make the patch better - quite the opposite in fact. It was really not necessary to kick several Locusts and Cicadas into the crotch and destroy whatever little shred of niche viability they had.

[Sereglach]

Ed Steele, on 13 February 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

You were unable to quote any post that I made regarding that flamers should "do 0 damage to Mechs". Please do not paraphrase me to try and prove me wrong, especially when you are ignoring how the (Battletech) game designers intended the role of the flamer to be in the game.

It's a bit difficult to believe that you'd be completely called out with direct quotes saying that flamers should "melt paint and warm the mech up a bit" and try to say that's NOT saying Flamers shouldn't do any damage to mechs. Pathetic, ridiculous, and utterly absurd. I knew you wouldn't keep to your word on being called out. Regardless, its there in writing for everyone to see.

EDIT: Oh, and as far as the Battletech intention of the weapon system, if it was meant to exclusively build heat on mechs, then it'd have the same rules at the Clan Plasma Cannon . . . which, in fact, does ZERO damage to mechs and merely inflicts 4d6 heat damage. Flamers do both physical damage and heat damage to targets . . . however for balancing purposes (and an extra feature to make them more desirable) that heat damage is done as bonus physical damage to non-heat tracking targets. If you want to cite the rules and intentions, then you should know them before prattling on about them.

Edited by Sereglach, 13 February 2016 - 03:55 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Sereglach, on 13 February 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

It's a bit difficult to believe that you'd be completely called out with direct quotes saying that flamers should "melt paint and warm the mech up a bit" and try to say that's NOT saying Flamers shouldn't do any damage to mechs. Pathetic, ridiculous, and utterly absurd. I knew you wouldn't keep to your word on being called out. Regardless, its there in writing for everyone to see.

EDIT: Oh, and as far as the Battletech intention of the weapon system, if it was meant to exclusively build heat on mechs, then it'd have the same rules at the Clan Plasma Cannon . . . which, in fact, does ZERO damage to mechs and merely inflicts 4d6 heat damage. Flamers do both physical damage and heat damage to targets . . . however for balancing purposes (and an extra feature to make them more desirable) that heat damage is done as bonus physical damage to non-heat tracking targets. If you want to cite the rules and intentions, then you should know them before prattling on about them.

Again, I never said "0 damage" or "exclusively build heat". You are just upset that I do not agree with you. And by the way, words have meaning, that is why I select certain words and not others.


What I would really like the flamer to be in MWO is a damage over time weapon which starts at 0 damage and scales to 2 damage over 10 seconds and then continues to do 2 damage every 10 seconds after that if the target has not moved out of range.

Edited by Ed Steele, 13 February 2016 - 04:21 PM.

[Sereglach]

Ed Steele, on 13 February 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

What I would really like the flamer to be in MWO is a damage over time weapon which starts at 0 damage and scales to 2 damage over 10 seconds and then continues to do 2 damage every 10 seconds after that if the target has not moved out of range.

Because when are mechs constantly within 90m of each other for 10 seconds at a time while never breaking contact or maneuvering? Let alone 20 or 30 or more? Put bluntly, your concept is pretty absurd and not feasible within MWO mechanics. Also, if you want it on a 10 second cycle, then I better start hearing you say you want every other weapon in the game on a 10 second cycle to match the TT rules, which is also patently absurd.

Edited by Sereglach, 13 February 2016 - 04:28 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Sereglach, on 13 February 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

Because when are mechs constantly within 90m of each other for 10 seconds at a time while never breaking contact or maneuvering? Let alone 20 or 30 or more? Put bluntly, your concept is pretty absurd and not feasible within MWO mechanics. Also, if you want it on a 10 second cycle, then I better start hearing you say you want every other weapon in the game on a 10 second cycle to match the TT rules, which is also patently absurd.

I told you my opinion of how the flamer should be in MWO, you do not have to agree with me, however the flamer that is currently in MWO is not what either of us wants it to be, so that much we can agree on.

[Blackhound]

Is there a reason the Mist Lynx/Koshi received a pile of nerfs while the Arctic Cheetah wasn't touched?

[Miles McQuiston]

Flamers. 90 meters, No Damage, More Heat to Shooter than Target for the most part. Now how do we make flamers viable without making them overpowered.

First the damage they generate and heat they inflict on target should scale with range (0-270 linear fall off). I.E. the plasma spreads and cools over distance it is shot. It should fire similar to a laser and have a cycle time to get rid of this ridiculous heat acceleration mechanic that we seem to be arguing over (Tweak the heat to make a hard decision between flamer and small laser). It should deal 5 damage and 6 heat at point blank and fall off as distance increases. I would still use small laser (IS) max range here and cycle at the rate of a medium laser. The projectile speed should be relatively slow, I would start with narc velocity (and go up from there as needed), where you truly need to lead moving targets. Ghost heat anything past one flamer such that boating would be suicide from a heat standpoint. Two being viable, three might as well bring lasers. Set it such that chain fire is not an option and will incur the same ghost heat penalties. Visual obstruction should be kept and have a one second burn time on target. I.E if you take a shot to the face with one of these you see some blur/flame when trying to return fire. The visual obstruction is the same regardless of range it hits you at, thus even at 270ish there is no damage, but a bit of annoyance on the cockpit window should it hit you there. Oh and if you are hot and you get hit with one of these you do shutdown. That is the reality of adding heat to a mech.

How is it useful from a game mechanic? Lights are probably going to want one as it does damage and heat and if you manage to get close enough, the damage is not negligible and the heat is an added bonus. No constant heat addition mechanic with a recycle time will mean that using it will simply accelerate the heat scale of your opponent, but not be some easy button overheat your opponent. Might just curb the laser meta a bit. I.E. if you run really hot two lights with flamers can send your heat scale up that when you alpha your LPLs and MLs you are in trouble. Mediums, heavies, and assaults that run cool could easily increase their viability by closing distance and adding some heat to their enemy. Laser alphas are nice, but if you are running hot and they round the corner with one of these you could end up partially blinded and overheated. I would put one maybe two on an assault as backups for when lights come around. I.E. get a shot of flamer plasma on that laser boat light after he has squeezed off a few alphas, bam shutdown, insert AC20 round into leg.

It has to be dangerous in some situations to be useful and the situations need to be common enough to make it viable. Make it a heat adding, damage generating weapon that is not a flame fire hose and allow it to overheat your opponent. Control its power with cycle time and ghost heat like everything else in the game such that the trolls cannot run around overheating people. Thus I would try to make it a weapon that becomes dangerous to your opponent when their heat hits 85%-90%.

Tweak heat and damage as needed patch after patch like everything else.

Now if we could just fix the nascar, oh wait larger maps are helping that but give us some of these http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thunder_LRM to make the added utility lrm launcher viable. Hey make BAP detect mines as well. This would force some interesting battles on all the maps, no more run counterclockwise until enemy gets your back or you get theirs. Hey area denial on conquest cap points.

The sky is the limit with Battletech PGI. Keep giving us new features and we will of course keep giving you our money.

Edited by BAHS, 13 February 2016 - 06:05 PM.

[Karmen Baric]

meteorol, on 12 February 2016 - 09:35 PM, said:

So you will remove the Quickdraw 4G from the game, which was to be expected, given your history of heavy handed knee-jerk balance.

But i didn't really think (well who am i fooling, i knew you would do it) you would really go for a blanket nerf on all IS mechs with zero compensation on most of them. The locust, spider, commando, awesome and urbanmech really needed to be brought back in place again. lol.

Listen, i don't really mind. I timed my CW contract to end this weekend, and i'm sitting on 60 filled mechbays and 250mio cbills, I stopped caring about your massive balance fails long time ago. I'm just switching factions according to your ongoing failures.

Had a nice run with the IS, back to clans i guess.

Next balance pass incoming when the big units all go clan again and CW map changes in favor of clans again. Can't wait to see how long it takes before the two major balance indicators (CW map and guys crying on twitter) will make russ nerfhammer clan mechs again.

This is quite true. All the big units went or are going Clans for this patch. Clan mechs now again have the upper hand, rather than things being balanced.

crustydog, on 12 February 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

About the DireWolves... once glorious, now just kinda sad.


Atlas's are scary now, not so much for their firepower as for their ability to absorb seriously huge amounts of damage. They are dangerous now, and they should be.

But the poor Dires - mobility nerfed so badly, an elephant would make a better weapon - and they seem to enjoy none of the staying power of our new killer Atlas. Direwolves pack a big punch, sure - but they can't actually aim those weapons anymore. They are rather helpless now - and not very scary at all.

Really. No i dont think so.

Dire Wolfs have so much fire-power and with the Ws JJ decent manoeuvrability, they are perfect right now and dont need any help at all. At 5-600m dakka Dires will destroy the brawler Atlas before the Atlas gets in range.

Edited by Karmen Baric, 13 February 2016 - 06:40 PM.

[Navid A1]

Karmen Baric, on 13 February 2016 - 06:38 PM, said:

Really. No i dont think so.

Dire Wolfs have so much fire-power and with the Ws JJ decent manoeuvrability, they are perfect right now and dont need any help at all. At 5-600m dakka Dires will destroy the brawler Atlas before the Atlas gets in range.

I don't think anyone is silly enough to move towards a dire on open ground.
You live in a fantasy world if you think that is a real case.
Dires are helpless.

You can hit it with anything from anywhere

[NocturnalBeast]

Navid A1, on 13 February 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

I don't think anyone is silly enough to move towards a dire on open ground.
You live in a fantasy world if you think that is a real case.
Dires are helpless.

You can hit it with anything from anywhere

The Dire and the King Crab are basically turrets, they point in one direction and obliterate anything stupid enough to stand still in front of them, but they can easily be flanked and picked apart by any Mech that goes faster than 70kph or so.

[MauttyKoray]

Felio, on 12 February 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

Better late than never.

Lol, not the flamer tweak that was mentioned in that tweet. I think that was the heat ramp change that made them useful in 1-2 but capped them and prevented the heat-lock that was an issue before then. (to be fair the flamer-lock builds were horrible... even ballistic mechs fell prey to them)

[Sereglach]

MauttyKoray, on 13 February 2016 - 07:39 PM, said:

Lol, not the flamer tweak that was mentioned in that tweet. I think that was the heat ramp change that made them useful in 1-2 but capped them and prevented the heat-lock that was an issue before then. (to be fair the flamer-lock builds were horrible... even ballistic mechs fell prey to them)

Nope, those tweets are the promised Flamer overhaul that we've been waiting on for over 2 years, now. The one that was promised to be coming at the same time the Firestarter was announced. It didn't come with the Firestarter, and we were fed excuse after excuse until it basically dropped off the face of the planet when the Clans were announced.

[spectralthundr]

Sereglach, on 13 February 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

Nope, those tweets are the promised Flamer overhaul that we've been waiting on for over 2 years, now. The one that was promised to be coming at the same time the Firestarter was announced. It didn't come with the Firestarter, and we were fed excuse after excuse until it basically dropped off the face of the planet when the Clans were announced.

Oh jeez who cares? It's a flamer, did any one expect it to eventually become a meta weapon? It's largely been a useless weapon in practically every MW title it's been in. I swear some in this community just make up reasons to ***** at this point.

[Realizer]

The whole meta changes, hardly anyone cares. Flamers get nerfed, everyone loses their minds. Rofl couldn't resist.

[Sereglach]

spectralthundr, on 13 February 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

Oh jeez who cares? It's a flamer, did any one expect it to eventually become a meta weapon? It's largely been a useless weapon in practically every MW title it's been in. I swear some in this community just make up reasons to ***** at this point.

Those of us who'd like to see every weapon in the game become at least somewhat viable care.

Plenty of us are sick of nothing but laser vomit ruling the day just like we were sick of poptarts ruling the day. We don't care if those kinds of mechs exist, but we'd like everything to be reasonably viable.

EDIT: That is, of course, unlike those who ride the meta wave, live the meta, and only care because the meta changes and "forces" them to change/rebuild mechs so they can keep up with the meta.

Edited by Sereglach, 13 February 2016 - 09:28 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Mister Blastman, on 12 February 2016 - 07:52 PM, said:

Why is Clan MASC still inferior to IS in regards to turn rate? It should be equal or superior in every way.

Also... no re-sizes yet?

Maybe because all variants of Shadow Cat and Executioner get it compared to the IS Wolverine-7D and.....nothing else. There should be a Wolverine-7M it just replaces the Ballistic arm with Energy.

[Wildstreak]

Rhialto, on 12 February 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

AMEN!

I'm gonna be positive and really think this time is the good one...

PLEASE can you elaborate on how you fixed it? I'm curious...

Soooooooooo many fixes in thsi patch, congrats!

Problem is they once before claimed to have fixed it but.....

[Wildstreak]

Blackhound, on 13 February 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

Is there a reason the Mist Lynx/Koshi received a pile of nerfs while the Arctic Cheetah wasn't touched?

Mist Lynx did not really get nerfed.
C legs got standardized to others.
A few slight nerfs to LAs by standardizing Armor/Structure buffs.
It did get torso buffs and a few others.
No big change here.

[NocturnalBeast]

spectralthundr, on 13 February 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

Oh jeez who cares? It's a flamer, did any one expect it to eventually become a meta weapon? It's largely been a useless weapon in practically every MW title it's been in. I swear some in this community just make up reasons to ***** at this point.

There are just those who want nothing but .5 ton OP weapons to mount on their overly durable light mechs.

Sereglach, on 13 February 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

Those of us who'd like to see every weapon in the game become at least somewhat viable care.

Plenty of us are sick of nothing but laser vomit ruling the day just like we were sick of poptarts ruling the day. We don't care if those kinds of mechs exist, but we'd like everything to be reasonably viable.

EDIT: That is, of course, unlike those who ride the meta wave, live the meta, and only care because the meta changes and "forces" them to change/rebuild mechs so they can keep up with the meta.

Making flamers into lasers does not make the game better though.