18 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

The never ending debate about quirks/buffs and balance not withstanding, it seems to me that certain mechs just ought to be better at certain things than any other mech regardless of weight or class. To wit:

A Grasshopper ought to be the most "jumpy" of the heavies. The Quickdraw may be the most mobile (fast and jumpy), but the Grasshopper ought to be able to jump higher/further if properly equipped -but even the J doesn't can't better than a G. Variants of the Catapult and Thunderbolt (of all things) can jump better than most "Hoppers". Even the jump capable Marauder's are pretty close to the Hopper's capability. None of that seems right to me and in the end makes me question what is the point of the Hopper.

Similarly, why is there a variant of the Thunderbolt, and even the Zeus of all things, that does PPCs as well as some Warhammers or Awesomes? That seems odd, and even redundant.

I guess this comes down to a "lore should matter" post. But I think that if Paul's stated goal (back prior to PS-3) that each mech, and each variant, ought to have a distinct role and function; then giving "lore" based buffs/nerfs ought to be the way these distinctions are created or at least encouraged. Looking at my Grasshopper example, right now I see nothing "special" about the jumping ability of the Grasshopper over any other jump capable mech, and that just seems wrong.

I'm just pointing the the Grasshopper's lack luster jumping ability as just one example of seemingly incorrect performance characteristics. What do you guys think?

[Tarl Cabot]

The jump jets overall are lackluster, even more so the heavier the mech. The way PGI initially setup jumpjets allowed them to be abused. Mechs only needed to equip one, maybe two jj to get the most out of them. Adding more JJ provided very little in return.

Then came the Highlander, the first assault with JJs that could effectively equip the then no-charge up Gauss Rifle and higher velocity ERPPCS. Used together provided 35-45 PPD on a mech that could jump up from behind cover and hit incoming mechs. Brawler atlas pilots cried streams of tears while being abused, trashing their mechs with 40+PPD close range weapons because they were no very effective using terrain to close with the few poptarters. Add the Victor. Lighter mechs were able do it too, just not with as effective nor high 35-45 PPD (pinpoint damage).

JJ Shakes were added, ERPPC slowed down, GR charge up implemented but finally PGI just decided to kill jump jets altogether, saying jj on heavies and assaults were meant for maneuverability. Sad people. JJ were not used for just maneuverability in the Solaris boardgame, nor in the PC mech games.

Mind you, for whatever balance PGI has in mind, it is not necessary that mechs travel their full distance per lore/other rules MWO is based on, but the current setup can be improved on. It does not even have to be the full distance, at least half of their original distance would be a good start, provided minimal amount of JJs are equipped.

That would mean the Highlander, with 3 Class 1 JJs, could at least jump 45meters. In lore/boardgame a mech could equip enough JJ to travel the number of hexes it could travel at max walking speed. For a HL that was 3 hexes (max run speed 5 hexes) or 90meters. In Solaris rules (2.5sec turns/7.5m instead of 10secs/30m) a HL could continue its jump for 4 turns, traveling max 4 hexes/turn, and firing its weapons while also taking incoming fire.

Will PGI ever review and possibly change its jump jet equation setup? Not holding my breathe, unfortunately.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 February 2016 - 11:03 PM.

[Mech Jager]

I do not care about lore. In game differences are more important than believing in Santa Claus.

For IS mechs especially, it is good to have to work with different playstyles with each mech.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Mech Jager, on 13 February 2016 - 10:44 PM, said:

I do not care about lore. In game differences are more important than believing in Santa Claus.

For IS mechs especially, it is good to have to work with different playstyles with each mech.

Cute... so why do you care about a game based on a specific setting again?

[Tarl Cabot]

That was for the jumping. What is lackluster about most humanoid mechs though is very few offer enough high-mounted weapon hardpoints, and the inability for the arms to be raised to put to better use arm-mounted hardpoints, to be brought those weapons to bear without the need to expose more of the mech. Right now with arm unlock, arms give a slightly wider weapon coverage for the weapons equipped in the arm, but from the waist viewpoint, like as if you were firing from your hip.

Would the arms extend to the extent that they are complete parallel to the ground, be able lock straight out at the elbow and raised to and/or above the horizontal plane? For some mechs possibly while for others no. But that would also add another flavor to a mech, and change up the current atmosphere.

As for lore and weapon quirks, especially PPCs in its current form does it really matter, seriously? PGI makes changes to the game to change up the "flavor" between mechs and between techs. The T-Bolt 9S was a ER/PPC machine gun after one set of quirks, then after that flavor ran its course PGI changed up the quirks on that mech (lots of Clanners rejoiced), now it is rarely seen.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 February 2016 - 11:24 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 February 2016 - 10:47 PM, said:

Cute... so why do you care about a game based on a specific setting again?

Because its a fun game which has large stompy robots.

Personally I like reading into the lore a bit and I wouldn't mind if some mechs had quirks for their namesake, but I don't play the game solely for its lore. I like the game because its the only game I know about that allows you to customize a mech with this much freedom, bring it into battle, and crush your enemies for profits.

[Hit the Deck]

Tarl Cabot, on 13 February 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:

...
That would mean the Highlander, with 3 Class 1 JJs, could at least jump 45meters. In lore/boardgame a mech could equip enough JJ to travel the number of hexes it could travel at max walking speed. For a HL that was 3 hexes (max run speed 5 hexes) or 90meters. In Solaris rules (2.5sec turns/7.5m instead of 10secs/30m) a HL could continue its jump for 4 turns, traveling max 4 hexes/turn, and firing its weapons while also taking incoming fire.
...

A HGN with 3 JJs and a 325 rated engine actually jumps ~90m horizontally (I just tested it). Vertically, it hops about 19m which is TT correct assuming that one level is 6m.

I guess that means that Class I JJs in MWO adhere more or less to the TT rules. The problem is that the acceleration is pitiful.

[Nauht]

Dakota1000, on 13 February 2016 - 11:17 PM, said:

...allows you to customize a mech with this much freedom, bring it into battle, and crush your enemies for profits.

You left out hearing the lamentations of their women.

[Paigan]

Bud Crue, on 13 February 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

The never ending debate about quirks/buffs and balance not withstanding, it seems to me that certain mechs just ought to be better at certain things than any other mech regardless of weight or class. To wit:

A Grasshopper ought to be the most "jumpy" of the heavies. The Quickdraw may be the most mobile (fast and jumpy), but the Grasshopper ought to be able to jump higher/further if properly equipped -but even the J doesn't can't better than a G. Variants of the Catapult and Thunderbolt (of all things) can jump better than most "Hoppers". Even the jump capable Marauder's are pretty close to the Hopper's capability. None of that seems right to me and in the end makes me question what is the point of the Hopper.

Similarly, why is there a variant of the Thunderbolt, and even the Zeus of all things, that does PPCs as well as some Warhammers or Awesomes? That seems odd, and even redundant.

I guess this comes down to a "lore should matter" post. But I think that if Paul's stated goal (back prior to PS-3) that each mech, and each variant, ought to have a distinct role and function; then giving "lore" based buffs/nerfs ought to be the way these distinctions are created or at least encouraged. Looking at my Grasshopper example, right now I see nothing "special" about the jumping ability of the Grasshopper over any other jump capable mech, and that just seems wrong.

I'm just pointing the the Grasshopper's lack luster jumping ability as just one example of seemingly incorrect performance characteristics. What do you guys think?

I think about that myself many times.

Quirks should not be +30% equalism balancing magic, but balance by giving a Mech "character".

For example:

- Mechs like Mad Dog, Catapult, etc. should be dedicated missile boats. With positive quirks that make them better for that than any comparable Mech, but also negative quirks that make them sub-par for other roles.
- The Warhawk, being the "heat sink boat" should get some kind of (considerable) heat sink quirks, but in turn maybe negative quirks to energy cooldown, missiles and ballistics or whatever
- The Timber Wolf should have reduced armor on its arms and legs, because they are so skinny and to balance the beast a little.
- The Summoner should have CONSIDERABLE bonusses to jumpjets, speed and agility.
- The Executioner should have a REALLY tanky right arm
- Scout Mechs (like the myst lynx) should have big bonusses to scouting abilities like sensor range, locking time, etc.

etc.

Mechs should have real roles. You can still use them for something else if you love them, but they will be only, say 90% good at it, not the 110% that they are build for in their role.

And it's all doable with a few XML edits.

Edited by Paigan, 14 February 2016 - 01:49 AM.

[1Grimbane]

Nauht, on 14 February 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

You left out hearing the lamentations of their women.

AMEN BROTHA...... SING IT!!

Edited by 1Grimbane, 14 February 2016 - 01:51 AM.

[Cabusha]

As far as the grasshopper goes for JumpJetting, it was only a 4/6/4 movement mech. You said, "The Quickdraw may be the most mobile (fast and jumpy), but the Grasshopper ought to be able to jump higher/further if properly equipped". Quickdraw was a 5/8/5, so yes, a quickdraw SHOULD out jump a Grasshopper.

That said, Jump Jets across the board are anemic and desperately need love. Here's a thought, give them some vigorous jumping ability again, but while in air, force chain fire? Gets rid of the old Pin-Point-Poptart meta, gives you mobility, and you can still slam in PPCs or ACs on the fly, just not the 30pt alphas into one spot.

Edited by Cabusha, 14 February 2016 - 01:52 AM.

[Wolfways]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 February 2016 - 10:47 PM, said:

Cute... so why do you care about a game based on a specific setting again?

He doesn't, and he and others like him are pgi's target audience.
Imo the only reason MWO is based (very loosely) on BT/MW is because pgi knew they wouldn't get the funding for a game they invented. It's quite obvious by now they don't care about BT.

[jss78]

Every time JJ's are discussed I'm happy I mainly pilot mediums. Medium JJ's are really nice now, and it's completely worthwhile to put a lot of them in. I run 5 JJ in all of my Wolverines, and for just 2.5 tons I get a really nice jump.

They really need to revisit the other JJ's, and see that they get a similar return for tonnage.

[Otto Cannon]

Jumpjets are still broken generally. They made them too weak in the first place, so people were able to hover slowly up over hills and shoot. Instead of making them a proper sudden powerful jump good for mobility but not poptarting and balancing with cooldown they went the wrong way and crippled them totally.

[Bud Crue]

Paigan gets the idea (though I disagree with some of his examples) of the issue I am trying to raise. It is essentially about the character of mechs and how PGI can make each have a distinct feel with quirks, nerfs and buffs. I mention the Grasshopper and jumping merely as an example of a mech that does not seem to live up to its perceived character or for that matter have ANY real distinct character compared to the other mechs that I mentioned.

My thought that PGI ought to consider the "historic" descriptions of mechs when they buff and quirk to give the mechs their distinctiveness, is merely one way to give mechs character. But regardless of method, it seems logical and even desirable to have each mech be distinct. Not better...just different. If PGI wants to sell a lot of mech packs for different mechs there ought to be at least some sort of distinctiveness to them other than just visual.

Returning to one of my examples: the lore of the Grasshopper is that it had surprising speed and mobility. Had the mobility of a lighter design. Mounted mostly short range weaponry that was outgunned by mechs of similar tonnage. Excellent endurance and ability to Zombie. (see sarna)

Dismissing that description by simply saying well all jump jets suck, and in TT it had a 4/6/4 movement so it works as intended...doesn't exactly do that description justice, ya know what I mean? I just think a mech with that description should not perform almost exactly the same as...nearly every other heavy mech capable of supporting jump jets. My point is indeed the same old "different mechs ought to play and feel like different mechs". I just think the Grasshopper is a good example of a mech that ought to feel specialized (in good and bad ways) but in fact feels like damn near every other heavy mech since they can nearly all do what it can do. I think with a couple of well placed buffs and/or nerfs the mech could be transformed into something distinctive (For the Hopper: perhaps a +10 percent to vertical jump distance; weapon quirks exclusive to smaller energy weapons, etc. That sort of thing.). Do this for all mechs (using selective positive and even some negative modifiers) and suddenly a Grasshopper is not just a Thunderbolt-SE in a different skin. If this is done with lore, great, if not, okay. I just think a bit more flavor would go along way toward spicing up the variety of play and build options.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Anytime I think about quirks I just think PGI missed the boat on allowing customization. The skill tree and module system should have been the place that allowed us to quirk our mechs ourselves. I cannot stand that PGI dictates the quirks taking player choice away. Now it limits your build options and why would you run a mech not utilizing the current quirks?

You could build mechs with their uniqueness on an individual basis. It would be very immersive. Another thing totally wiffed on by PGI.

[adamts01]

Paigan, on 14 February 2016 - 01:46 AM, said:

- Mechs like Mad Dog, Catapult, etc. should be dedicated missile boats. With positive quirks that make them better for that than any comparable Mech, but also negative quirks that make them sub-par for other roles.

Because non-missile Mad Dogs would be OP at other roles without negative quirks
...... LOL

[Zepster]

Simple fact is though poptarting has been a viable tactic in this game over it's many iterations PGI hates it and nerfed it out of existence. You can't tell me these mechs wouldn't have gyro stabilized weapons systems. It's laughable.....

[VinJade]

off topic:
@Grimbane
I like the art of war over trash said by that mass murder.

Back on topic:
Lets not forget the Spider as it has better jump ability due to the fins it has which allows the warrior to control their flight with greater skill.

now if we are going by lore as well there are mechs that suffer at it's hands. such as mechs like the Nova as it cannot torso twist at all with the way it was designed.

also talking about those that PGI targeted for this game, I agree.

those that don't like or care about lore tend to be those that just come to play with robots.

PGI could just as easily called it 'Big stompy-stomp, boom-boom, kill-killy robots' and people like them would still most likely come to it.

And to be all honest I never felt they should have had the right to connect themselves to Battletech in anyway, shape, or form.

I know they have to balance things for PC games but Lore comes as part of the package, even micro$oft knew this when they produced MW 3-4.

but then again they had Coleman write the script for a couple of the games....

in the end though at least this isn't like that abomination M$ put out for X-box that they tried to pass off as Battletech/mechwarrior.