64 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Ok, i have to speak up because of the mis-conception regarding how to counter the LRM problem the beginners are running into.

AMS is not the fix, it is a novelty.

ECM is better but limited to a few mechs but is also a crutch.

Radar Deprivation Module is best, but without the piloting skills to go with it, it would also be pointless.

So, PGI, PLEASE Help the new players realize and practice that piloting and positioning are key to countering LRMs.

Not only will this help them in the underhive but also introduce the basic skills needed for play in general.

Basically:

Moving under cover.

Moving from cover to cover.

Not running out in the open.

Seeking cover when warned.

PUSHING the LRM boat instead of cowering.

The setup could be simple:

PART 1
A firing line of 4 LRM boats on a ridge and the pilot has to advance and kill them. The boats wont move and there is varying degrees of terrain to use as cover. Could go Left/Center/Right with each route having different difficulties.

Advanced course could be using timing to bait a volley, hide, then move/attack during cooldown.

PART 2
Your Lance advances across open terrain and a friendly is LRM'd. Shoot the LRM boat to make it hide.
Friendly bots wont announce which Boat they will shoot so pilot has to use radar-awareness and LoS to slap the boat that peeks. kinda like Whack-a-Mole.

Thoughts?

[Doctor Dinosaur]

New players don't have the XP to get radar deprivation, nor the money to buy the module (6 million), as you said ECM is not always available - but 1-2 mechs in the pack would suffice, people just need to use that invisible cover.
Natural cover is not always available (polar highlands...). Of course you are right, that LRM training would be nice, but AMS is a failsafe way to go, when **** hits the fan.

[happy mech]

problem is that lrms track you even in cover (a bad mechanic)

i would add: learn to twist, do not stare at missiles

[InspectorG]

Doctor Dinosaur, on 15 February 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

New players don't have the XP to get radar deprivation, nor the money to buy the module (6 million), as you said ECM is not always available - but 1-2 mechs in the pack would suffice, people just need to use that invisible cover.
Natural cover is not always available (polar highlands...). Of course you are right, that LRM training would be nice, but AMS is a failsafe way to go, when **** hits the fan.

Radar Dep would be useless anyhow if they stand in the rain.

Natural cover is USUALLY around, even on Polar. Been rolling in my Banshee on Polar and never really felt out in the open. Dont walk on the ridge-lines, dont walk on the high ground.

AMS is not a fail safe. AMS would be great if people used single LRM10-15 as backup weapons.

But they dont, they boat LRMs in 40-80 groups.

And asking 'if only the team would each equip an AMS' shows ignorance of how Solo (doesnt)works, hence even less utility from it.

The best solution, is proper training on using piloting to negate locks, hence nullifying LRMs and making the pilot a better player in general.

[Domenoth]

Dave Forsey, on 21 January 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

I may be able to add a very simple something with LRMs into the Academy, but I've run into memory limitations on 32bit machines.

[Doctor Dinosaur]

AMS is pretty failsafe if enought people use it and there are not too many LRM boats around (the latter comes with the former, when there are enough AMS then LRM will vanish from the meta). It's 1,5 tons negating the damage of a multiple of it the enemy is wearing on tubes and ammo.

[InspectorG]

Doctor Dinosaur, on 17 February 2016 - 01:37 AM, said:

... if enought people use it ...

And that is the problem, in theory if everyone spent 2.5 tons and stayed near each other the big bag LRMs would be countered.

Fallacy 1. People use good builds. In order to build well you must understand MWO. Most do not. Hence this thread.
The closer you need to get to 'Meta' builds for efficiency, the more that AMS costs in tonnage and space.
If you just play for 'Fun' they you likely shouldnt care about LRMs/AMS/etc etc...

Fallacy 2. People staying near each other is coordination, which is lacking in Pug and utterly lacking in T5 Puglandia. Because is the was actually coordinated, your firepower and push would itself negate enemy LuRMers.

So, again, piloting skill is the fix.

[ObsoleteVodka]

Well, I've been playing since December and lurking the forums almost every day since then. But i think i could throw my two noobie cents here.

As some people stated before, i also believe countering LRMs is more about seeking cover and getting out of the missiles' way rather than relying on fancy gadgets. -wich seems to be intended for more experienced players and customized builds anyways-

So far the two things that works for me are either to move behind a tall structure (i love River City in this regard) or running out of the way when in the open (as in Polar Highlands). I gotta be careful when doing the latter though, moving in a wrong direction could get me exposed to enemy fire.

[DodgerH2O]

Couldn't you use LRM turrets plus a map like say, River City to teach at least a little bit of LRM avoidance? Move from point A to B along a line with a bunch of buildings that block LOS or give cover, maybe.

[InspectorG]

ObsoleteVodka, on 20 February 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Well, I've been playing since December and lurking the forums almost every day since then. But i think i could throw my two noobie cents here.

As some people stated before, i also believe countering LRMs is more about seeking cover and getting out of the missiles' way rather than relying on fancy gadgets. -wich seems to be intended for more experienced players and customized builds anyways-

So far the two things that works for me are either to move behind a tall structure (i love River City in this regard) or running out of the way when in the open (as in Polar Highlands). I gotta be careful when doing the latter though, moving in a wrong direction could get me exposed to enemy fire.

You are right about moving to cover.

The fancy gadgets are basically ignored by experienced players, or used for non-LRM reasons.

DodgerH2O, on 20 February 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Couldn't you use LRM turrets plus a map like say, River City to teach at least a little bit of LRM avoidance? Move from point A to B along a line with a bunch of buildings that block LOS or give cover, maybe.

Could? Yes.

But a firing line of enemy mechs would better show the point of movement+aggression done properly, makes LRM boats fold.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

DodgerH2O, on 20 February 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Couldn't you use LRM turrets plus a map like say, River City to teach at least a little bit of LRM avoidance? Move from point A to B along a line with a bunch of buildings that block LOS or give cover, maybe.

It's all in there. The LRM turrets (long ago in assault game mode), the route (same as gauntlet and running cored), areas on the route covered and not covered. So, simply back to the memory problem.

And TO that memory problem, I might have to ask if there shouldn't be more than one Academy location. The mechanic is there to select one (the initial popup asking to select BASIC TRAINING or EXPLORE ACADEMY, which would be expanded to include options for individual combat training, CW, etc., as appropriate). Fresh set of bits to work with if it's a whole new map, which doesn't have to include all the existing elements of the Academy. Almost a blank slate to work with.

More on this in a new/separate post...

[patoman]

would be very complicated to train and not learn in quick matches, tutorial is basic stuff.

If going into that much detail of training, might as well go all out and do training on how to do pop and shoot, etc.

[Omaha]

It's not like quick play is (other then (some) events) ranked. So yeah just go out there and get to dodging. Best experience is the real deal. I'm sure you guys that have been in the service can attest to that.

[General Solo]

I think new pilots need to be told Line of Sight (LOS) is the key.
Limit the amount of time an enemy have LOS on you and your LRM problems will be lessened.
No LOS from a LRM boat or any other spotter, No Missile Lock
Narc and UAV are exceptions
Use cover to limit LOS exposure

[Barkem Squirrel]

For training remember frozen city and river city provide good cover for LRMs, I would suggest canyon network, caustic valley or even some areas of alpine peeks. Have static LRM turrets with overlapping fields of fire. Then some TAG or NARC turrets. Or some LRM boats for figuring out what ones are more dangerous. Why, are you going to charge a treb 7M or hunch 4J, no. This give them a chance for negative reinforcement. certain LRM boats will kill you quick. Multiple LRM boats or turrets also. That is why you use a more LRM friendly map, so that they learn to use the small things on how to stay hidden or reduce exposure time. One thing I would add is standing in the open with maybe 2 or 3 AMS turrets just to see how 4 AMS deals with LRM 20 or 10 turrets.

I know some places where you can get to with LRM boats for a free kill at times on caustic valley or tremoline, the but is I can do the same thing with Auto cannon mech builds. Laser is a bit harder due to the range and heat. I can not remember how many times I have kill mechs from these locations. It got so bad in group drops that when I ran off and a new member of the unit asked why, someone else would say, he is just running of for a quick kill or two, don't worry.

I still say the best training is in the quick play, but even there you have people that will continue to fire at you while standing under the bridge on river city at 500 m or so away. The hard part is, just letting them fire while trying not to hit them. Why, it is more important to let them fire all their missiles than do damage, since if one is firing at you another LRM boat just might start firing at that target in the open (but protected by the bridge.) There are so many variables, that just experience in game is the best.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Omaha, on 14 March 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

It's not like quick play is (other then (some) events) ranked. So yeah just go out there and get to dodging. Best experience is the real deal. I'm sure you guys that have been in the service can attest to that.

SO much the opposite, that I considered one of those Jackie Chan memes to accompany my response. Then, I decided that it MIGHT be sarcasm, and thought better of it.

But no, NOT EVEN CLOSE. Now, comparing the training of the 21st Century US military POG to that of a 31st Century pilot of the most awesome land warfare machine ever conceived? Not entirely realistic. SO, let's look at something a lot closer, of which I do happen to know a bit. Let us consider the training of a new, wet-behind-the-ears AH-64 attack helicopter pilot.

FIRST, he or she (just HE for sake of simplicity and brevity, henceforth) still has to undergo and successfully complete the same basic training as any other soldier in the US Army (assuming he's not going to be an aviation branch officer, which is a safe enough assumption for now). There goes a little over two months of his life that he'll never get back, starting with learning to stand at various positions in a formation, to do a proper pushup, and to walk in a straight line without tripping on the guy in front of him and dying. It moves on through basic laws of land warfare (Lynndie England, FROM MY HOME TOWN (to our everlasting disgrace, LIED in claiming that she was never instructed on this stuff... it's week one stuff at basic training), Code of Conduct (NOT what you think; code by which one conducts one's self when captured by an enemy), and so on. Then firearms stuff--basic safety, LOTS of marksmanship training (wasted on the common POG), numerous different range exercises. Moves on to fieldcraft. Some cool situational and field exercises. Graduation.

From THERE, he is promoted to Sergeant (formality, as he will not have completed WLC/PLDC/PLC/etc, and will not have truly EARNED that rank) and sent off to Mother Rucker (Fort Rucker, Alabama, near Enterprise, AL) for the WOBC (Warrant Officers Basic Course). There's another six weeks of his life he'll never get back, spent doing the DUMBEST f***ing s**t you can imagine just to prove that he can. From THERE, it's off to flight school. This is BASIC stuff, piloting a trainer helicopter before it's all said and done. Nothing tactical, just the basics of getting off of the ground, navigating, and returning to the ground, without inadvertently killing himself or destroying a bus loaded with nuns and orphans. That's a solid 9 months, last I heard. And that's just a SINGLE-ENGINE TRAINER. THEN, it's off to the AQC (Aircraft Qualification Course, or some such), which is the course specific to the aircraft that he has been slotted to spend a career flying. And there go several MORE months of his life, leraning the specific ins and outs of that aircraft. Learning EPs (emergency procedures, like what to do in the event of a single engine failure at a forward airspeed BELOW the minimum safe single-engine airspeed, or what to do when a main rotor overspeed occurs). Learning some very basic stuff about the aircraft's tactical gear, like flare/chaff dispensers, the ALQ-136 radar jammer and ALQ-144 IR jammer, and so on. Learning to manage the aircraft's intercom system AND three or four different radios simultaneously. MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL PERHAPS, learning to make PURE HABIT out of the three-way transfer of control between pilots (a minor misunderstanding of which cost two friends of mine their lives in South Korea in early 2005).

Now, you'd think after something approaching 2 years, that he'd be ready to go kick some tail out there in the world, right? PFFT! Get a LIFE, POG! He shows up to his first duty assignment, and he's a dirty WOJ (Warrant Officer Junior Grade, which is no longer a rank in any branch, but is a semi-derrogatory term for a Warrant Officer 1, and a reminder that he's still nobody) who's RL3. RL means Readiness Level, and if you ain't RL1 then you're a pain in the commander's fourth point of contact. SO, now the Instructor Pilots (IPs) have to start a new training file on Mister ... whoever, Mister WOJ. And they have a RL progression scheme, and Mister WOJ has to work up through that scheme (and compete with other pilots for flying and simulator time, both of which ARE limited) to RL1 before they're good to go to fly in a no-kidding training mission and actually be rostered for one of the commander's 6-8 aircraft.

Completing all of THAT (another three months, IIRC), that WOJ typically promotes to CW2 (Chief Warrant Officer 2), and his training is STILL not f***ing complete! Now there's aerial gunnery that must take place, in order to qualify the rostered aircrew for the aircraft's weapon systems. And accomplishing THAT, there's still ongoing quarterly requirements for time spent flying under night vision system, night vision goggles, instrument navigation, and so on, and failing to log the appropriate hours per quarter on all of those means getting bumped BACK to RL3 and starting over.

Mind you, one of the factors limiting the available flying hours for these pilots is the availability of aircraft, and the AH-64 is a NOTORIOUSLY maintenance-intensive aircraft across all three variants that have been fielded (A, D, and E), and progressively more so with each. Boeing pulled some real b***r moves with some of the D-model's systems (WHO IS THE F***ING GENIUS that decided to mount the HPSMs like that, REALLY?! I want his f***ing HEAD, mounted on my wall, YESTER-F***ING-DAY!).

Anyhoo, then there's the inevitable pre-deployment exercise at NTC or JRTC, to bring it all together for the whole unit, brigade down to individual soldiers. There go another 6 weeks of his life. Be sure to wave bye-bye!

And only THEN, is our intrepid CW2 ready to go weapons-free on Taliban Joe in RC East in Afghanistan, and wind-up losing his tail rotor (THIS REALLY HAPPENED) in-flight. Fortunately, that aircraft had sufficient forward airspeed to maintain its proper attitude, and the back-seat pilot was DAMNED good, and a successful roll-on landing was executed, resulting in zero injuries (unless you consider the front-seater's pants-crapping an injury, though likely only to pride). And that's one less aircraft available to the TF commander for operations. Smooth. Had to pack that up and ship it off to Corpus Christi, TX, to get evaluated and eventually reconditioned for return to service. THAT little project kept a lot of families fed for months, I assure you.

TL;DR- No, training someone for this sort of thing is a years-long process, and even THEN there are no guarantees that he won't wind up a Tier 5 scrub. But you take that chance, because most come out the other side ready to face Tier 2 after a few real-deal encounters.

Training is 90% or more of the day-to-day reason for existence of most conventional military personnel in the free world. Without it, we may as well settle our wars with so many rolls of the 2D6 and let those young men and women go on about their lives.

BY ALL MEANS, DRIVE ON WITH IMPROVING AND EXPANDING THE ACADEMY!

And tell CPT Adams to tone down the HOOAH a little, eh? Dude sounds WAY too enthusiastic for someone that's stuck training a bunch of scrubs...

[Rocket2Uranus]

No People need to learn how to lose lock.
They also need to learn how to hide behind covers.
There are many things people don't understand because they don't know and tutorials don't cover enough.

1. They should learn how LRM/SSRM lock on.
2. They should learn how LRM flies.
3. They should learn about how to hide behind covers.

Simple yet, these are things no one really knows about when they first start the game.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Rocket2Uranus, on 21 March 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

No People need to learn how to lose lock.
They also need to learn how to hide behind covers.
There are many things people don't understand because they don't know and tutorials don't cover enough.

1. They should learn how LRM/SSRM lock on.
2. They should learn how LRM flies.
3. They should learn about how to hide behind covers.

Simple yet, these are things no one really knows about when they first start the game.

I agree so much, that it actually kinda hurts. 'Grats, bruh.

Now, we're on to the real problem. In a paid-up-front game title, you can afford to force the player to undertake a training scenario, even if it's an on-mission kind of deal. They've already paid for the game, so even if they get fed up and hang the thing up now, you still have their money to pay your bills. Smooth.

But in a Free-to-Play game like MWO, you've got to get the hook in before the money flows (Founders notwithstanding, of course). So forcing a new player to go through all the tutorial stuff first MAY cause that player to lose interest. After all, the player usually doesn't have anything other than a couple hours and some disk space invested in this game, and a simple uninstall recovers one of those two. So you need the players to WANT to do the tutorial.

So yeah, PGI waved a few fistfuls of CBills in front of us to hit the GOLD level time for the Thunderbolts-can-sorta-run course, and all that. But even so, ADVERTISING the academy as a viable tool for honing one's skills is something that isn't quite matching the IMPORTANCE of the same. That is, we really ought to see more recommendations for the academy in the TIP rotations in the map loading screens.

And yeah, more tutorial subjects with a more robust field of replayable/scaling tutorial tasks? That would be stupendous.

[Virlutris]

Sister RAbbi, on 17 March 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

SO much the opposite, that I considered one of those Jackie Chan memes to accompany my response. Then, I decided that it MIGHT be sarcasm, and thought better of it.

But no, NOT EVEN CLOSE. Now, ...

Awesomeness

...

BY ALL MEANS, DRIVE ON WITH IMPROVING AND EXPANDING THE ACADEMY!

And tell CPT Adams to tone down the HOOAH a little, eh? Dude sounds WAY too enthusiastic for someone that's stuck training a bunch of scrubs...

Aww, go easy on Cap, this is the only Hooah he's likely to see for awhile. Let him have his fun.

Besides, once he promotes, he's gonna have more qualifying time in his desk chair than his command couch. Let the man live it up while he can.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Nice!

Hey, no offense to the voice actor for that job. And for the character himself, was that a carry-over from another MW title? I've never played any of the others, save Crescent Hawk's Inception (which wasn't really heavy on NPCs, to be honest).

But yeah, I spent the tutorial shaking my head at that dude. Sounded so POG, I felt like a REAL soldier for a minute (I wasn't retired yet when I started playing MWO, but to be fair, I WAS by the time the Academy tutorial rolled out) by comparison.

I've been thinking that when (okay, IF) the Academy gets expanded, there ought to be a new, ORIGINAL character introduced into the training stuff. Maybe CPT Adams' hand-picked successor, some up-and-coming young Lieutenant with a chip on his shoulder. OR maybe we can meet the grumpy old first sergeant, who's just riding the gravy train a few more months until retirement and really RESENTS being responsible for all these young officers who can't actually find their shiny brass backsides with a map and compass and GPS and an 8-digit grid.

You know what? I want a bowling ball cockpit item. Fun story. The tale of WO1 Ball. WO1 Ball wasn't an actual Warrant Officer. He was a bowling ball. Had a nice bag that he was carried around in, and had a logbook. He was assigned to either the newest officer (warrant or commissioned) in the squadron (pfft... cav... yeah, I got my spurs) or the one who most recently screwed up. SO, just to introduce him to the good like, the USMA cadet that spent part of the Summer of '99 with us in B/2-6 Cav in Germany, HE got WO1 Ball assigned to him (as opposed to PVT Sphere, who was only for enlisted folks). Gotta take WO1 Ball cool places, do cool stuff with him, and get pictures, and put it all in the logbook, right? OH, and DO NOT EVER GO ANYWHERE WITHOUT HIM. That's a standing order for whomever is assigned to WO1 Ball. So, when the cadet leaves WO1 Ball in the pilots' office while he goes to take a leak, and he comes back freshly relieved of urine, he finds that WO1 Ball has mysteriously disappeared. In its place, he finds a Polaroid instamatic photo of WO1 Ball, blindfolded, with a lit cigarette hanging from his thumbhole, with a squirtgun pointed at his head, and a hastily-constructed note next to it reading:

"1800, Bowling Alley, or the Ball GETS IT"

This led the young cadet on quite an adventure, which was equal parts scavenger hunt and pub crawl, to recover WO1 Ball. And I'd be in deeper than deep dookie, were it ever known to certain parties that I did assist the cadet in coordinating taxi transportation from the bowling alley to the bar in the next town over (ah, Bad Windsheim, what a town! My daughter was born there, too). Hey, I felt for the kid. He didn't speak a lick of German after only 5 weeks or so, and losing WO1 Ball to THAT crew would have followed him around for years.

Anyhow. CPT Adams is making the best of a tough situation, I'm sure. Probably a Tier 1 player, just not in the comp game at the moment. You know. Real life stuff, priorities, all that...