140 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

Yes, you are wrong.

How is it wrong then?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 02:56 PM, said:

Fixed some things for you since they do make a difference. It certainly isn't perfect that we have this mess of balance we have now, but meh, it is what PGI has painted themselves into a corner with by refusing to actually balance equipment.

Your fix is bad.

Not EVERY IS 'mech gets 25%-50% more structure. That's a myth propagated by Clan Apologist Zealots. Some do, and those that do may not get them in the ST/CT, but only in the arms or legs, which does nothing for XL survivability.

While the IS 'mech may get off a few more shots over the course of the duel, the MOMENT an ST is gone, it's game over.

Clans.have.the.edge.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

How is it wrong then?

You are taking a tiny slice of the pie, and blowing it up so big that you are pretending it is all that matters.

[Revis Volek]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

How is it wrong then?

Your fix is bad.

Not EVERY IS 'mech gets 25%-50% more structure. That's a myth propagated by Clan Apologist Zealots. Some do, and those that do may not get them in the ST/CT, but only in the arms or legs, which does nothing for XL survivability.

While the IS 'mech may get off a few more shots over the course of the duel, the MOMENT an ST is gone, it's game over.

Clans.have.the.edge.

LOTS. OF.IS.MECHS.HAVE.CT and ST.QUIRKS.

But no not every single one, thats just silly. only mechs that needed it got it according to PGI.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

Not EVERY IS 'mech gets 25%-50% more structure. That's a myth propagated by Clan Apologist Zealots.

We aren't comparing all, we are comparing the top vs top, and guess what a good chunk of the best IS mechs have (minus assaults, which have high mount benefits)?

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

You are taking a tiny slice of the pie, and blowing it up so big that you are pretending it is all that matters.

Hardly, I'm taking a systemic view, looking at both systems side by side, made as equal as possible, and seeing the predictable outcome.

I'm not pointing to ONE frickin' weapon, and it's ONE frickin' stat and crying that one entire faction has to be nerfed into the dirt to fix the problem. Yet, that's what I'm seeing a lot of people effectively calling for.

[Dimento Graven]

Revis Volek, on 17 February 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

LOTS. OF.IS.MECHS.HAVE.CT and ST.QUIRKS.

But no not every single one, thats just silly. only mechs that needed it got it according to PGI.

Yes, we agree "lots" != "all" or even "most".

Also we have to look at PGI's history on this sort of thing.

Seriously, they buff the Atlas, which absolutely needed some CT/ST buffs, but they ignore the KGC which has HUGE ST's, and a CT that can be hit from damn near ANY angle (yes, literally nearly 100% 360 horizontal and vertical exposure angles, it's a bit on the annoying side).

And then there's the Blackjack... Kind of boggled by that one...

[dario03]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

Ok here's why I'm dismissive:

Random IS 65 ton mech with XL vs. Random Clan 65 ton mech with XL
Not so random generalized assumptions based on the randomness of builds:
Both with equal alphas and heat dissipation
Both with equal range
Both with equal armor setups

Both battling with equal amounts of skill, and both torso twisting like crazy.

Which 'mech has the better survivability?

That's right, the Clanner.

If the IS loses an ST, even with all the torso twisting in the universe, he's still dead, where as the Clanner loses an ST, he's down some speed, some weapons, BUT, he's still fighting.

You can't say "IS can torso twist, so it's ok that they die with an XL loaded when they lose an ST", as if to say Clans don't torso twist as well, AND STILL GET TO KEEP FIGHTING AFTER AN ST LOSS...

Your argument is myopic and doesn't look at the issue systemically...

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

How is it wrong then?

Your fix is bad.

Not EVERY IS 'mech gets 25%-50% more structure. That's a myth propagated by Clan Apologist Zealots. Some do, and those that do may not get them in the ST/CT, but only in the arms or legs, which does nothing for XL survivability.

While the IS 'mech may get off a few more shots over the course of the duel, the MOMENT an ST is gone, it's game over.

Clans.have.the.edge.

Every IS 65tonner has 50% (67% for Top Dog) ST structure quirks and all the Catapults, Jagers, and the Top Dog get 25-50% CT structure quirks. The rest of the Thunderbolts are the only ones that have ST but no CT quirks.

Edited by dario03, 17 February 2016 - 03:39 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

We aren't comparing all, we are comparing the top vs top, and guess what a good chunk of the best IS mechs have (minus assaults, which have high mount benefits)?

I wasn't going for top-v-top, at that level it'll be what the pilots make of it.

I go for the average, where most of the player base lives, you balance for them, otherwise if you balance for the 1%'ers, the 'average' have a game too difficult to be fun, because the 1%'ers are ALWAYS gonna meta-min/max.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

I wasn't going for top-v-top, at that level it'll be what the pilots make of it.

I go for the average, where most of the player base lives, you balance for them, otherwise if you balance for the 1%'ers, the 'average' have a game too difficult to be fun, because the 1%'ers are ALWAYS gonna meta-min/max.

If your game is balanced to the point that the meta min-maxers cannot abuse it enough to gain more than a very slight edge...by default, the rest of the player base will have a balanced game, because they could not possibly min/max any harder than the people that live for it.

The issue here is you compare base stats, but a handful of clan mechs have quirks, and fewer of those are for things that actually matter. Meanwhile, nearly every IS mech has a stack of quirks ranging from agility to bonus structure, heat generation, range, beam duration, cooldown, missile spread...etc.

The other issue is that with the game in the current state it is in, finding an actual 95% harmonious balance point will be virtually impossible.

The way this should be accomplished is the following:

1.) remove all quirks period. ALL QUIRKS.

2.) Restore the skill tree (because it was simply a clan blanket nerf in disguise)

3.) Bring in IS T2 tech comparable to that which the clans have, and any tech clans do not have a counterpart for needs the clan versions brought in. (ER lasers, streaks, UACs/RACs, MRMs, XPL, LFE, CHS, etc.)

4.) Build your balance around face time exposure from beam weapons, and balance that DPS against PP FLD weapons for both sides accounting for the new T2 tech

5.) Run about 3-4 test server iterations with the equipment introduced for a week at a time and make adjustments accordingly.

6.) Once the internal balance passes and test server changes are approved for live push it to the servers and WAIT. Let it marinade for about 2-3 months and gather data.

7.) Reintroduce quirks for mechs that are showing to underperform and boost agility/structure lightly, with perhaps some weapons quirks thrown in for flavor. (We are talking quirks in the range of 5-15% tops to any one attribute)

8.) Enjoy your now balanced game, continually make small adjustments as weapons and chassis evolve/get introduced, and profit.

[Dimento Graven]

dario03, on 17 February 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Every IS 65tonner has 50% (67% for Top Dog) ST structure quirks and all the Catapults, Jagers, and the Top Dog get 25-50% CT structure quirks. The rest of the Thunderbolts are the only ones that have ST but no CT quirks.

I don't recall it being 50% for all but a few actually, I'll have to go and check.

Some Clan heavies (not many, totally agree) get ST quirks too.

The point of those structure quirks though, at least as I understand it, was to try and make it worth the IS loading an XL in their 'mech.

Until the quirks increase ST armor to 100%, it's not worth it in most cases as no matter what the clans blowing away a single 50% quirked ST, STILL requires LESS damage than the IS blowing away TWO unquirked Clan ST's, or unquirked CT, or two unquirked legs (though I think "most" Clan heavies get some leg structure quirks, right? Don't remember, will have to try and remember to look that up too).

Beyond that, the structure quirks don't prevent crit damage as I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), so that sure it may take MORE hits to completely destroy that ST, it will STILL only require 15 points of crit damage to the IS XL engine parts in the ST to kill it. It's not absolutely required that you hit the ST for every structure point its worth before the 'mech dies.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

I don't recall it being 50% for all but a few actually, I'll have to go and check.

Some Clan heavies (not many, totally agree) get ST quirks too.

The point of those structure quirks though, at least as I understand it, was to try and make it worth the IS loading an XL in their 'mech.

Until the quirks increase ST armor to 100%, it's not worth it in most cases as no matter what the clans blowing away a single 50% quirked ST, STILL requires LESS damage than the IS blowing away TWO unquirked Clan ST's, or unquirked CT, or two unquirked legs (though I think "most" Clan heavies get some leg structure quirks, right? Don't remember, will have to try and remember to look that up too).

Beyond that, the structure quirks don't prevent crit damage as I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), so that sure it may take MORE hits to completely destroy that ST, it will STILL only require 15 points of crit damage to the IS XL engine parts in the ST to kill it. It's not absolutely required that you hit the ST for every structure point its worth before the 'mech dies.

The only clan heavies with any structure quirks at all are the Suckoner and the Baddog.

Both of which I doubt any one would argue over them having.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

If your game is balanced to the point that the meta min-maxers cannot abuse it enough to gain more than a very slight edge...by default, the rest of the player base will have a balanced game, because they could not possibly min/max any harder than the people that live for it.

True enough, to a point. Won't need to debate this any further.

Quote

The issue here is you compare base stats, but a handful of clan mechs have quirks, and fewer of those are for things that actually matter. Meanwhile, nearly every IS mech has a stack of quirks ranging from agility to bonus structure, heat generation, range, beam duration, cooldown, missile spread...etc.

Yeah, they have those stacks because they ABSOLUTELY need them, otherwise the Clans are so goddamned overpowered, no one but the most die hard masochists would bother playing IS.

Quote

The other issue is that with the game in the current state it is in, finding an actual 95% harmonious balance point will be virtually impossible.

Agreed, that's PGI's fault.

Quote

The way this should be accomplished is the following:

1.) remove all quirks period. ALL QUIRKS.

2.) Restore the skill tree (because it was simply a clan blanket nerf in disguise)

On your number two it hit IS too, in some cases harder than Clans.

Quote

3.) Bring in IS T2 tech comparable to that which the clans have, and any tech clans do not have a counterpart for needs the clan versions brought in. (ER lasers, streaks, UACs/RACs, MRMs, XPL, LFE, CHS, etc.)

Yeesh... Can o' worms there, hence PGI hasn't even touched this and as far as I know, has no plans to any time soon™.

Quote

4.) Build your balance around face time exposure from beam weapons, and balance that DPS against PP FLD weapons for both sides accounting for the new T2 tech

Then Clanners are going to have to accept instances of IS weapons having longer range and more power than some Clanner equivalents. Either each side has to have matching stats, OR, there has to be a mix where certain things are better than the other, and visa versa.

We can't act like we can give Clans nearly total technological superiority, but it's somehow balanced...

Quote

5.) Run about 3-4 test server iterations with the equipment introduced for a week at a time and make adjustments accordingly.

6.) Once the internal balance passes and test server changes are approved for live push it to the servers and WAIT. Let it marinade for about 2-3 months and gather data.

7.) Reintroduce quirks for mechs that are showing to underperform and boost agility/structure lightly, with perhaps some weapons quirks thrown in for flavor. (We are talking quirks in the range of 5-15% tops to any one attribute)

8.) Enjoy your now balanced game, continually make small adjustments as weapons and chassis evolve/get introduced, and profit.

All in all, reasonable, not much to be argued with there.

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

The only clan heavies with any structure quirks at all are the Suckoner and the Baddog.

Both of which I doubt any one would argue over them having.

Are those 'mechs REALLY that bad? I can't think of a single match played where I haven't faced multiple Summoners and Maddogs...

[Mcgral18]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

Beyond that, the structure quirks don't prevent crit damage as I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), so that sure it may take MORE hits to completely destroy that ST, it will STILL only require 15 points of crit damage to the IS XL engine parts in the ST to kill it. It's not absolutely required that you hit the ST for every structure point its worth before the 'mech dies.

No, they do not prevent crits.

Now, stop spreading that XL being death-Crit nonsense.
Engine Crits are worthless in MWO, THEY DO NOTHING!
Nothing deadly, at least. They Crit Pad the CT and ST, but upon destruction, nothing happens (much like Actuators, Gyro, cockpit items).

Okay? Good. How many more times are you going to mention that?

Edited by Mcgral18, 17 February 2016 - 04:08 PM.

[DownRightFierce]

Holy ****, these threads get so far off topic that by the time I got to the end I completely forgot what the thread was about.

Edited by DownRightFierce, 17 February 2016 - 04:00 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DownRightFierce, on 17 February 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

Holy ****, these threads get so far off topic that by the time I got to the end I completely forgot what the thread was about.

Welcome to GD.

[Felicitatem Parco]

DownRightFierce, on 17 February 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

Holy ****, these threads get so far off topic that by the time I got to the end I completely forgot what the thread was about.

This is a thread about energy weapon quirks. It has nothing to do with XL engines.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Prosperity Park, on 17 February 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

This is a thread about energy weapon quirks. It has nothing to do with XL engines.

To be fair, the energy quirk changes were to help balance IS vs Clans, and guess what the most egregious balance problem between the two tech bases is? Engines.

Plus, I believe somewhere in the first couple pages someone probably tweeted Russ about their mess up, so the thread fulfilled its purpose a while back (and now we wait 3+ months for it to be fixed).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 February 2016 - 04:24 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mcgral18, on 17 February 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

No, they do not prevent crits.

Now, stop spreading that XL being death-Crit nonsense.
Engine Crits are worthless in MWO, THEY DO NOTHING!
Nothing deadly, at least. They Crit Pad the CT and ST, but upon destruction, nothing happens (much like Actuators, Gyro, cockpit items).

Okay? Good. How many more times are you going to mention that?

Fine have it your way, BUT STILL, in the case of IS where losing an ST with an XL in it, destroys the 'mech, game over, and for Clans, they only lose some speed.

That HAS to be balanced one way or another, and giving Clans longer reaching weapons (in general), harder hitting weapons, and the ability to load MORE of said weapons, surely doesn't do much for balancing that, now does it?

[dario03]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

I don't recall it being 50% for all but a few actually, I'll have to go and check.

Some Clan heavies (not many, totally agree) get ST quirks too.

The point of those structure quirks though, at least as I understand it, was to try and make it worth the IS loading an XL in their 'mech.

Until the quirks increase ST armor to 100%, it's not worth it in most cases as no matter what the clans blowing away a single 50% quirked ST, STILL requires LESS damage than the IS blowing away TWO unquirked Clan ST's, or unquirked CT, or two unquirked legs (though I think "most" Clan heavies get some leg structure quirks, right? Don't remember, will have to try and remember to look that up too).

Beyond that, the structure quirks don't prevent crit damage as I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), so that sure it may take MORE hits to completely destroy that ST, it will STILL only require 15 points of crit damage to the IS XL engine parts in the ST to kill it. It's not absolutely required that you hit the ST for every structure point its worth before the 'mech dies.

On the 65tonners it is 50% on all variants but the Top Dog which is 67%. And yeah those quirks are there to increase TTK but not just for XL equipped mechs. If that was the case then they wouldn't have CT quirks since the Cxl does nothing to stop CT death. But yet almost all of them have CT quirks of 25-50%.

And no, you do not need 100% extra ST armor on a IS XL mech to be worth it. For one thing that would bring each ST on a 65ton IS mech to 150 total hp compared to a 65ton clan mechs 90, so only 30 less than the 2 ST combined. So unless you are letting enemies hit you in one ST and only that ST that isn't needed. It would also be 24 more hp than the CT of a unquirked 65ton mech, unless you were wanting to quirked that as well. Also a lot of the IS 65ton mechs have agility quirks so you can torso twist and get out of fire faster.

Do you run the chance of getting a ST shot out without taking much damage elsewhere? Sure, but if you play it right you can have a IS XL mech not die until every torso is blood red and still have all or at least most of your weapons till the very end. Where as a clan mech would have died long ago because it would not have been able to spread damage as well. Yeah living when a ST gets taken out is nice and all but its also nice when you can just spread the damage and not lose half the mech. Its also nice having a extra 50% structure on your CT no matter what engine you have.

For instance my Top Dog has these quirks
Energy Range +10%
Accel +40%
Decel +40%
Turn Rate +35%
Torso Angle Yaw +20
Torso Yaw Speed +30%
Add Struc CT +21
Add Struc L/R Torso +20
Add Struc L/R Leg +20

I have had that mech with a XL down to all 3 torsos open tons of times. I just had a CW match a few days ago where I was the last one standing but got 5 or 6 kills before going down because I was able to spread damage like crazy (also the enemies were hurt). Some of the kills were from taking 2 torsos out but some I just drilled through the clan mech's unquirked CTs. I don't think I could have done that in a Hellbringer or Ebon because they would have been able to focus fire on any of the torsos easier since I wouldn't have massive agility quirks. If they went for STs I would have lost each ST and thus half of my weapons much faster because they would be easier to hit and not have a extra 20 structure. And if they went CT it again would be easier to hit and I wouldn't have a extra 21 structure and again Cxl doesn't help CTs.

And no structure quirks don't stop crits, however I do think it makes you less likely to blow a component up from heat damage. Not positive on that though. Also engines don't die from crits in this game and no, most clan heavy mechs don't have leg structure quirks (Summoner only)

Edited by dario03, 17 February 2016 - 05:06 PM.

[Kmieciu]

Prosperity Park, on 17 February 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

This is a thread about energy weapon quirks. It has nothing to do with XL engines.

Clans have great quirks.

C-ERML has a built-in +50% range quirk. At the cost of +15% duration penalty.
And +40% damage quirk. At the cost of +50% heat.

I think it's a pretty good deal compared to IS ML. And the majority of players agree with me.

Take a poor mech (like an Adder or an Ice Ferret).
Mount 5 C-ERML.
Now you've got a decent mech.

Take a top tier mech: Timber Wolf, Hellbringer, Stormcow.
Mount 5-6 C-ERML
Profit.