140 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Dimento Graven, on 16 February 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

You've not been paying attention for the past few years then... Paul typically gets the details wrong.

To react like it's some major criminal negligence is just way over the top.

To constantly assume that people have agendas when it comes to balance (i.e. wanting Clan or IS to be better, not wanting actual balance), gives away the fact that you have that agenda.

There are a lot of people (myself included) who do not have any lore affiliation, and want to see actual balance.

[Lily from animove]

DovisKhan, on 17 February 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

Because AC20 don't have a lot of heat?


I'd like to get proven wrong, any of you can add me for a challenge and bring a double AC20 KGC, I'll bring my Dire packing CUAC20s, if I'm wrong, I'll have no problem admitting that here, but so far my experience shows the clear superiority of cuac

well you run into ghostheat, of you don't ant to run into ghostheat you will have to fire them at a chain. chainfiring stream ac's is like the worst way or making sure you spread your damage over the opponent. Because he just twists off your damage to irrelevant sections. The KGC will dual AC40 you, and twist off. twist back, dual AC 40 and so on. and it will hit your CT while you will most of the time hit something else as well, or not be able to fire properly without either running into heat issues or shooting at a non visible CT.

yes AC's have heat, but they don't doublefire and can bring 100% of their heat into the targets relevant sections.

[DovisKhan]

Lily from animove, on 17 February 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

well you run into ghostheat, of you don't ant to run into ghostheat you will have to fire them at a chain. chainfiring stream ac's is like the worst way or making sure you spread your damage over the opponent. Because he just twists off your damage to irrelevant sections. The KGC will dual AC40 you, and twist off. twist back, dual AC 40 and so on. and it will hit your CT while you will most of the time hit something else as well, or not be able to fire properly without either running into heat issues or shooting at a non visible CT.

yes AC's have heat, but they don't doublefire and can bring 100% of their heat into the targets relevant sections.

Dual AC20 gets you above 40% heat as well, it's really not viable at all, after 2 rotations you will either risk overheating on your 3rd or you can unload 3 but not use any lasers to go with it.

While with a cuac20 you will chain fire them, yes, but also unload a few large pulse lasers for the same heat as double AC20


Like I said, we can always try, if i'm wrong, I will have learnt something new in the process, If I'm right, then you will.

My dual cuac20 + 2 large pulses vs any modification of the king crab involving 2 AC20

[Duke Nedo]

I just wish PGI had been a little more reasonable about this range nerfing. I mean, the problem in my head at least was the combination of range, duration (and heat) quirks on the same variant. Instead of nuking range I wish they had let some variants still be long range mechs and others be short duration variants.

What they do now instead is to nerf BOTH range and duration on some mechs (hello QKDs) and NONE on others (hello RVN-4X). Btw, was that a stealth nerf on the QKD-5K duration, didn't that use to have 10%, now 5%? Perhaps my memory fails me...

Edited by Duke Nedo, 17 February 2016 - 04:01 AM.

[Kmieciu]

DovisKhan, on 17 February 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

My dual cuac20 + 2 large pulses vs any modification of the king crab involving 2 AC20

That seems like a fair fight.

I personally use 2xAC20 2xSRM4 2xML and set the ACs on a permanent chainfire. It's not like the KGC can run away to dissipate heat. While brawling, i try to convert each and every point of heat capacity into damage, and chain-firing AC20s takes only 0.5 seconds - half the duration of medium lasers.

[DovisKhan]

Kmieciu, on 17 February 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

That seems like a fair fight.

I personally use 2xAC20 2xSRM4 2xML and set the ACs on a permanent chainfire. It's not like the KGC can run away to dissipate heat. While brawling, i try to convert each and every point of heat capacity into damage, and chain-firing AC20s takes only 0.5 seconds - half the duration of medium lasers.

I do chain fire with my crabs as well, that's why I'm not yet sold on people claiming double fire being the go to option here.

But if they can wreck me doing that, than i'd of course adopt the new method.

Edited by DovisKhan, 17 February 2016 - 04:26 AM.

[Lily from animove]

DovisKhan, on 17 February 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

Dual AC20 gets you above 40% heat as well, it's really not viable at all, after 2 rotations you will either risk overheating on your 3rd or you can unload 3 but not use any lasers to go with it.

While with a cuac20 you will chain fire them, yes, but also unload a few large pulse lasers for the same heat as double AC20


Like I said, we can always try, if i'm wrong, I will have learnt something new in the process, If I'm right, then you will.

My dual cuac20 + 2 large pulses vs any modification of the king crab involving 2 AC20

see the dual AC20 is already too hot, and so our ultra AC's will even be hotter when you use them in ultramode + jam chance + spread damage. unless the AC which doesn't jams and just doesn't spreads damage.

if you chainfire and it works efficietly thaan you opponent is doing a bad job at twisting. no facetime stream kind of wepaon usage should hit someone in a ingle section unless its a NVA or a DRG which have omnipresent CT's. All other emchs cna more or less start to spread damage rather well against these laodouts.

so when being in an angle to shoot an CT, you will probably be able to chainfire 2 PP AC20, but surely not 2 CUAC20's in ultramode and still landing them in the same component. That requires a sitting duck as opponent to work.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 February 2016 - 04:38 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Hal Greaves, on 16 February 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

i wanna see a Dimento vrs Johnny Z grudge match, personally

Hey, I'd do it... They can be fun!

[Gas Guzzler]

Jman5, on 16 February 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Another thing I have noticed is that several of the mechs have energy + specific laser range quirks giving it higher than 10%. I'm not sure if that was intentional or not, but here it is:

• Stalker 4N: 5% LL 10% Energy
  
• Stalker 5S: 5% LPL 10% energy
  
• Battlemaster 3S: 5% MPL 10% energy
  
• Battlemaster 1G: 10% ML, 10% energy
  
• Banshee 3S: 10% ML, 5% energy
  
• thunderbolt 9SE: 10% LPL, 10% energy
  
• Thunderbolt 5S: 10% LL, 10% energy
  
• Thunderbolt 5SS: 15% MPL, 10% energy
  
• Trebuchet 5J: 20% std laser range
  
• Loup de guerre: 10% MPL, 5% energy
  
• Golden Boy: 20% MPL, 10% energy
  
• Enforcer 4R: 10% LL, 10% energy

You didn't read the patch notes did you...


Besides, this makes sense if the goal was to curb the 911m ERLL snipe festing, why should mechs lose their 350m range medium lasers?

[Gas Guzzler]

Deathlike, on 16 February 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

WHM-6D and Black Widow keeps its 15% Energy Range quirks.

I'm sure that passed QA with flying colors.

Spreadsheet needs fixing.

Building list from smurfy:
WHM-6D
Black Widow
RVN-4X
ZEU-9S
HGN-733P

[Kyuzo]

well russ knows about the warhammer.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 16 February 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

I'd rather have it be a 4-way including Gyrok and Hillslam (the latter of which is the Inner Sphere version of Gyrok).

Hey...comparing me to those people is insulting...

I will at least admit when someone has a valid point, rather than hand waving it away as an inconsequential argument and spouting some nonsequitur one liner...

Edited by Gyrok, 17 February 2016 - 08:13 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

I will at least admit when someone has a valid point

Will you really though?

Come on, Gyrok.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

I will at least admit when someone has a valid point, rather than hand waving it away as an inconsequential argument and spouting some nonsequitur one liner...

Maybe you aren't as bad as Dimento, but you still do this often, lest we remind you of the XL vs STD debate not too long ago.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Maybe you aren't as bad as Dimento, but you still do this often, lest we remind you of the XL vs STD debate not too long ago.

That particular instance revolved around subjective opinions on differing sides. I made objectively valid points, and so did you...we agree to disagree. I conceded that there are some cases where it certainly does make sense, though.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

That particular instance revolved around subjective opinions on differing sides.

And Clan vs IS balance is any different?

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

...

I will at least admit when someone has a valid point, rather than hand waving it away as an inconsequential argument and spouting some nonsequitur one liner...

And I refuse to accept the myopic focus on little benefit as the end-all-be-all of IS/Clan balance. Though I admit to dismissing histrionics certain Clan zealots go into when ANY feature of IS occasionally exceeds Clans, and I refuse to debate with those people in any serious fashion.

[Lily from animove]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

And Clan vs IS balance is any different?

Well discussing about balance should not be about opinions at all, it should be about objective ideas around solving a balance issue. But too many people aren't interetsed in true balance, thts why opinions start to dominate and dstroy most of these kind of threads.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lily from animove, on 17 February 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

Well discussing about balance should not be about opinions at all, it should be about objective ideas around solving a balance issue. But too many people aren't interetsed in true balance, thts why opinions start to dominate and dstroy most of these kind of threads.

The same could be said about XL vs STD engine debates as well, though. Any balance discussion meant to be through objectivity, but objectivity is a rare thing in discussions often.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

The same could be said about XL vs STD engine debates as well, though. Any balance discussion meant to be through objectivity, but objectivity is a rare thing in discussions often.

Objectively:

Clan XL's are better than IS XL's. (Two slots smaller than IS, able to survive an ST loss)
Clan XL's are better than IS Standards. (IS is typically required to load a larger standard to match speed, sacrificing weight that could be used for matching alphas and/or equipping armor).

As far as I know, there are no "Yeah but..."'s when comparing engines between IS and Clan when it comes to balance.

Opinion: I think that's where the systemic lack of balance begins.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 17 February 2016 - 09:54 AM.