24 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

Take a look at the map and think about your experience as an attacker.

1. Defenders spawn signficantly closer to the gates than attackers. Most maps it's either similar distance or attackers are actually closer. On Sulfurous it takes about 2-3 times as longer to get through a gate than it does for defenders to set up in their position. Defenders respawning can reinforce the previous wave easily. The same can't be said for attackers.

2. The distance between gates forces attackers to commit to an entrance. Switching lanes after you commit is impractical for attackers. For defenders the gates entrances are close together so it's simple to react to each gate quickly.

3. It has more turrets clustered around the gens than any other map. The other maps have 5-7, sulferous has 8.

4. At the very least the top and middle gates are extremely susceptible to firing lines by the defenders. This is less of a problem for disciplined premades, but extremely difficult to overcome for less organized teams.

5. Defenders have a well defended spawn point, attackers do not. Usually matches are decided by the time it comes down to attacking spawn points, but sometimes it can be necessary in a close counter attack match.

6. It's on the high end for travel time between attacker spawn and omega. Not the worst, but 2 or 3 of them are noticeably closer. The more time it takes to get to omega the better for defenders.

7. It's hot. Not a huge deal but it does slow down the fights as players need to cool off more. Again, the longer you can draw out a game, the better for defenders.

All this individually isn't a problem. Several of the other maps share some of these downsides for the attackers. However taken together it seems to paint a grim picture for the attackers.

What do you all think? Do you think Sulfurous has balance problems? Do you think it's fine? Anything you would change in particular?

Edited by Jman5, 16 February 2016 - 07:05 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Whilst the defenders do have the advantage from a reinforcement point of view it can be a trap for them too.

If the attackers are properly coordinated they come in on their first wave, get most of the defenders first wave and some of the defenders second wave. Getting the enemy out of sync can be very valuable late in the game when they are a player or 3 down and you have 12.

This map is not really friendly for dire whales though, too much travel time to get into the action.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 16 February 2016 - 09:10 PM.

[Valdherre Tor]

Attacking through the center gate(beta) is tough. The best approach is to push through one of the outer gates because less turrets and you can take away the defenders ability to flank if your team hugs the walls. The alpha gate at C3 has lots of cover once your inside and you can hill hump the ledge, side poke the corners with big alpha strikes while most of the defenders are standing in the open.

Sometimes the team wants to roll through the gate at F3 which is a wide lane that lets the team form a better firing line and the defenders cannot flank.

I wouldn't say the defenders have an advantage for their spawn to be as close as it is. Any reinforcements coming out of the drop zones lose armor witch makes the next attaching wave easier for the attackers because said reinforcements are already chewed up. If any thing this puts the defenders at a huge disadvantage for their spawn to be so close to where the fighting is taking place because of the risk of being spawn camped or pined down in the spawn.

But I wouldn't know anything about that because I'm a Kcom scrub.

[Valdherre Tor]

One more thing, the defenders on this map are very predictable and without even pooping a UAV you can likely guess were they will be setup i.e if you go through the alpha gate there is almost always.... always a group of mechs clustered on the platform waiting for someone to walk around the corner, just one quick peak form any ledge or back wall and you can drop a strike that is guaranteed to hit 6 mechs.

Just think about it, you know and I know where every defender likes to camp on this map.

[Tasker]

Sulfurous has always been one of the easiest maps for attackers, while Vitric and Portico favor the defense so heavily that if you actually lose on those maps on defense while presenting an organized defense, you should simply uninstall the game.

The maps are just bad.

[Valdherre Tor]

I don't do many defensive drops these days and mostly live in the attack lanes. IMO the hardest map to attack on is Borel Vault. I'll usually lose %10 armor just walking through the gate and thats a nicer version on when a coordinated team is defending and gets a kill before the gates are opened.

It's not uncommon to see the attackers on Borel down 6 mechs before the gates are opened. Back in Beta 1, I have been in defense drops with my old unit where we had to eject from fresh mechs into JJ mechs to hop over the gates to kill the reaming attackers because they failed to open the gates.

Most turrets in CW can be killed without taking any fire from, but not on Borel, Borel has those turrets tucked right behind the gate as you walk in, that is guaranteed to deal some dmg to your team. and while you focus that turret here come the arty/air strikes and enemy fire.

The defenders have some really nice spots to hill hump and brawlers can setup right in between the two gates waiting to Bukake their alpha strikes all over the first mechs face that walks through.

Borel Vault is the only map you have to Leeroy Jenkins the gate gen down, and YOLO your way through the gates.

Edited by Valdherre Tor, 17 February 2016 - 12:03 AM.

[sycocys]

Other than the walking issue I think this map is probably one of better of the CW maps.

The thing I'd consider for improving it would be to push the gates out further and put the generators out further as well.

Have the initial battles/competitions over the gens in the 4/5 line split areas and it really opens up the match. Forces defenders to move up/scout and gives lance warfare a real possibility. Should burn up at least 2 waves whether people try a split or a deathball.

Just kind of a shame that they use so little of the maps and that discourages any real sort of tactical play.

[Danjo San]

as an attacker its fairly easy, there are several positions from which a good longrange ballistic mech can sniper every generator and even omega, without even having to step on the platform in or around omega. get one or two designated snipers, push the gates in the right order, 10 players defend the snipers and keep the other mechs in lockdown or push in and distract the whole enemy team, while getting kills. gens down, mechs killed take down omega and win.
Counterattack same deal, get one or two snipers to take down omega while the others prevent the snipers from being toasted, by damageing the enemies. once omega is down, get up on kills and take the fight outside ...

[Kin3ticX]

Vitric and grim are much more asymmetric.The attack isnt so bad on the first two or three created maps, Boreal, Sulfer, Hellebore.The maps seem to get progressively asymmetric in the order they deployed the maps give or take. Emerald and Vitric have the most close quarter urban fighting. Grim gives the defenders pretty good high ground at the choke point

edit: The design is a mixed bag.

All else equal, two teams of equal ability, the defender is expected to win.

However, you can also have a group of somewhat less ability hold ground against a somewhat superior one

If the superior group is defending, the odds are stacked much higher against the attacker.

Base rushing is supposed to be the fallback for an inferior group on attack to win, and with how its set up now, if it happens, you really ****** up the defense.

Then there is all this other **** like burning the clock and spawn hiding on counter

Edited by Kin3ticX, 17 February 2016 - 07:53 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Yeah, the distance is problematic for attackers: you basically have three waves and if you haven't built a sizable lead by then, or dropped all the genies, you're going to lose. By the last wave, you're usually pushing the 3-minute mark and that's not a lot of time to do much with.

This map almost never comes down to the last wave: Usually by wave three, either one team or the other is spawn camping.

[Sputty]

Sulfurous is one of the easiest maps to attack. If you're going to talk about defender advantage you should be taking about grim portico

[Tasker]

Sulfurous is again, very, very easy to attack. The problem is that most people simply have no clue how to do it. For instance, I see people talking about attacking beta? I'm going to give all of you bad players some free advice, and you should actually heed this advice instead of filing it away as a troll just because it doesn't mesh with your insane head canon:

Attack Alpha. It's a strong attack lane.

[Wildstreak]

Danjo San, on 17 February 2016 - 07:29 AM, said:

as an attacker its fairly easy, there are several positions from which a good longrange ballistic mech can sniper every generator and even omega, without even having to step on the platform in or around omega. get one or two designated snipers, push the gates in the right order, 10 players defend the snipers and keep the other mechs in lockdown or push in and distract the whole enemy team, while getting kills. gens down, mechs killed take down omega and win.
Counterattack same deal, get one or two snipers to take down omega while the others prevent the snipers from being toasted, by damageing the enemies. once omega is down, get up on kills and take the fight outside ...

Problem is the promoted strategy in CW now is to wipe the defenders when attacking in Invasion for maximum rewards. PUGs have a harder time doing this but still try, also I do not think new guys understand the objective.
Several of the CW maps have spots where you can snipe gens with long range weapons, again no one tries due to the promoted strategy.

Tasker, on 17 February 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

Sulfurous is again, very, very easy to attack. The problem is that most people simply have no clue how to do it. For instance, I see people talking about attacking beta? I'm going to give all of you bad players some free advice, and you should actually heed this advice instead of filing it away as a troll just because it doesn't mesh with your insane head canon:

Attack Alpha. It's a strong attack lane.

Depends on the team, for PUGs I would say Gamma. Once inside Gamma, there is more open space to spread out for a firing line. Inside Alpha, I have seen too many PUGs all over get stalled out trading on the sides and top of the rock formation and the nearby gate generator.

[Lily from animove]

Well it works good for attackers

go in wiht the first wave, which often fails, due to defenders disadvantage.

howeve rnow you have a mix of damaged firstwave mechs and fresh second wave mechs in the defense.

Then you cna strike in hard as attacker, a kind of snowball effect can make you claim the spot and pick apart the damaged ones easy and everyone that follows rather much one by one. Due to how respawning works you cna prevent the defenders to form a deathball again..

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 February 2016 - 09:25 AM.

[Husker Dude]

Simple key for me on this map is that if you're brawling, attack Gamma, and if you're medium to long range, attack Alpha.
I never want to go middle, too severe a choke point at the base of the platform to deal with.

[Tasker]

You should never attack Gamma.

[MischiefSC]

Tasker, on 17 February 2016 - 07:59 AM, said:

Sulfurous is again, very, very easy to attack. The problem is that most people simply have no clue how to do it. For instance, I see people talking about attacking beta? I'm going to give all of you bad players some free advice, and you should actually heed this advice instead of filing it away as a troll just because it doesn't mesh with your insane head canon:

Attack Alpha. It's a strong attack lane.

Same reason smart teams take mountain or center on Alpine and Therma and why defending Boreal is easy with Erlls.

Dat high ground. Go Alpha, get up high and exploit better firing position. You have cover all the way to Omega. Remove turrets, go shoot people.

Or exploit the heavy cover for the approach, Arty the turrets and light rush to kill ogens/omega without ever taking a gate down.

For giggles you can Atlas/Stalker rush Beta. That's all but a guaranteed win too. 2 waves at most. You just can't kill them fast enough on that hot map. On Vitric you can kite them all the way from gates to gens. Just can't get the same effect on Sulfur.

Sulfur favors attacker like Boreal favors defender.

[Tasker]

Boreal only favors the defender if the attacker is objective rushing. Boreal does not favor the defenders at all if the attackers are fighting to 48.

Boreal is a legitimately good map, easily the best CW map.

[Danjo San]

Wildstreak, on 17 February 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

Problem is the promoted strategy in CW now is to wipe the defenders when attacking in Invasion for maximum rewards. PUGs have a harder time doing this but still try, also I do not think new guys understand the objective.
Several of the CW maps have spots where you can snipe gens with long range weapons, again no one tries due to the promoted strategy.

when i lead my unit into battle we usually field at least 4-6 pugs, i always call my orders over voip... other just dont seem to care to give orders. so it works for me ... just tell them whats up and roll

[MischiefSC]

Tasker, on 17 February 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

Boreal only favors the defender if the attacker is objective rushing. Boreal does not favor the defenders at all if the attackers are fighting to 48.

Boreal is a legitimately good map, easily the best CW map.

Boreal is good but the attacker has time in an exposed choke point every wave. As defender you can either play at the gates and force them to eat a firing line with no cover or you can play back at Omega and exploit that hill for a high firing position. It's not as bad as Vitric but you've got to rock out with you Glock out coming in either gate and the defender has some good positions to focus you from.

It's good, but it favors the defender. Which is good; It's not supposed to be even. Attacking should be harder.