97 replies to this topic

[Aeryk Corsaer]

Kerzin, on 13 July 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

God I hate LRM’s they are such a broken weapon’s system.

Gets on soapbox.

Any weapon system that loses 30% of its range is just a waste of tonnage in my book, while a weapons system with a max range of 630m (almost 7 football fields) they may look great on paper you lose 180m (about 2 football fields) on the bottom end and the sheer randomness of the damage they apply and the many other ways they can be rendered almost ineffective is truly silly hopefully something can be done to make them more useful without overpowering things otherwise I’ll rip the damn things out and kick them to the curb for more armor or engines or something else useful....Sorry bit of a rant.

Gets of soapbox.

But if you insist on using them then I’d recommend leaving the LRM-15’s installed and just upping ammo tonnage and installing Artemis. With Artemis installed your overall fire power will be better than running LRM-20’s without and you won’t have to completely strip out your short and medium range defense and let’s face it even if you have an insanely well-coordinated teem backing you up some close range brawler(s) will get to you at some point.

Additionally you’re ammo will cost less and you will likely have a lower repair bill overall making the mech. more cost effective to run since I’d expect the repair cost to be some factor of the construction cost of the system being repaired.

I like your comments on how to do the build but your rant about the LRM minimum range has a basis in reality. There are ballistic launchers today that do not arm themselves until a set distance. If you view the LRM system as a form of mobile artillery (the purpose it somewhat serves in the BTech universe), then you can understand hy the minimum range exists. Many types of artillery chassis, for example, were not able to fire 'straight' ahead but arc the shots to gain a better angle of attack and greater range. This post is a justification, from my perspective, for the balance originally created in Battletech between the first weapon systems in the game.

Just FYI they were: Small, Medium, Large Laser and PPC; MG, AC5; LRM5-10-15-20; SRM2-4-6. THATS ALL.

[OJ191]

Anywho it's late, I'm off to bed now. If anyone else posts up builds I will stick them into the builder to format into a tech readout when I get on here again.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Aeryk Corsaer, on 13 July 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

Not sure about XL engines but pulse lasers are in the game - not experienced enough to find and especially post a link though.

XL Engine+double heatsinks are both confirmed and will be the game at launch.(And at August's beta for that matter) From what I understand, XL Engine does the same thing as regular but takes up half of much weight in exchange for taking up double the hardpoint slots.(Which will carry over some of its slots into the side torsos instead of just being in the chest) The double heatsinks are the same type of deal; they will do the same thing as a normal heatsinks but weigh half as much in exchange for 2x the hardpoint slots used. Both of these will be great at filling out extra hardpoint slots that you wouldn't have enough weight to use otherwise. If you have unused slots, then they are basically cheaper options for the same effect.

Pulse Lasers are also confirmed. These lasers do less damage per shot but have a very fast recycle time, typically they are laser machine guns. (Like comparing a Machine Gun to an Autocannon) I never preferred them in previous games because they ate extra weight and built up heat too quickly. I don't know how they will fare here though.

[Akito272]

Pulse are a great but requiere mobility. I dont see a catapult being very mobile.

[Kerzin]

@OJ191

Yes I agree in a coordinated lance with full voice comm. bring 4 LRM-20’s is a lot of firepower (on paper) particularly if you pop tart well, however things happen even with a well-coordinated team and bring any mech. that’s strictly a one trick pony is a determent to the team IMO you need to have sufficient tactical flexibility so that when things start to go pear shaped you can plug gaps with whatever unit is near buy, but it’s ultimately a judgment call on the lance commanders part.

@Aeryk Corsaer

Yes you are correct that many modern weapons system have a safety range mostly to protect friendly personnel and equipment (in some case this can be overridden though), but I can’t think of any that are 30% of the maximum range of the weapon system (but I’m far from an expert) that the basic problem if it was dialed back to say 90-120m I’d have less of an issue with them. Still don’t really like them just not my play style but mileage varies.

[Glythe]

OJ191, on 13 July 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

It's a RANDOM MATCH.

You don't have a lance to tell to bring NARC or TAG.

If you do have a lance with you then it isn't a random match, it's coordinated play where you don't need artemis.

Coordinated play as you define it won't be in when all the founders start playing.... that I define as your team picks all 12 people and what mechs they are driving. A lance is 2-4 people selecting a limited number of mechs..... the rest is still random (that should be available on the 7th).

OJ191, on 13 July 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Don't use CASE with an XL engine... if your side torso blows up you are dead regardless.

See what I said above.... if you don't use CASE with chest stored ammunition you run the risk of needing to repair the entire mech (instead of just say the torso).

Bluten, on 13 July 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

The double heatsinks are the same type of deal; they will do the same thing as a normal heatsinks but weigh half as much in exchange for 2x the hardpoint slots used.

That's clan DHS and I don't think we will get those for about a year in game according to the dev plans so far. Regular DHS take up 3 critical slots so you can't put them in the legs or central torso (thus severely limiting their placement).

Edited by Glythe, 13 July 2012 - 11:16 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

From what has been said recently hardpoints are 1:1 with the weapons fitted to the original mech. The cat has 2 missile HPs and 4 energy so thats what your weapon limit is.

[Elizander]

Pilotreborn, on 13 July 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

As the title says, what is a viable build with 2 LRM-20, and still have enough ammo to **** people up at distance without running out and having solid armor.

I did this already using QuickMech, but I took out the Jump Jets and reduced the speed to 3/5. I think I had (2) Medium Lasers left for defense but it had double LRM20s and enough ammo to go critical on an armor breach (10 tons of Ammo, good for 30 salvos). It does have full armor though.

Double Heat Sinks + Endo Steel also.

[Kraven Kor]

OJ191, on 13 July 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Don't use CASE with an XL engine... if your side torso blows up you are dead regardless.

And how are you fitting 20 double heatsinks? You don't have the tonnage nor the crits.

You also need 1 artemis per launcher per what I was told earlier in this thread.

How much ammo are you running? Looks like 4 blocks of ammo/96 missiles to me, i'd personally drop some armour and run more but w/e.

It is also highly unlikely you can put launchers in the torso with the hardpoint system.

Anyway the below is what I made of your build, I only had 10 double heatsinks (all you could fit), 1 artemis per launcher, and I removed the CASE.

Well, that was just a quick build. And it only has 10 double heatsinks, not 20...

But wouldn't 8x Artemis-IV LRM-5's result in more missiles hitting per salvo than 2x LRM-20 + Artemis? It is a bit more heat and tonnage, but I seem to recall that multiple smaller launchers would generally result in more missiles hitting than a comparable larger launcher.

Naturally, the charts from TT and those from MWO may not mesh up.

Edited by Kraven Kor, 13 July 2012 - 11:35 AM.

[Major Tom]

The LRMs I have seen in the video are a little lackluster for the tonnage.

• eveyone has double armor
  
• fast mechs avoid LRM volleys easily
  
• LRMs have very little ammo per ton
  
• LRMs are extremely heavy and not very heat efficient
  
• LRMs have a minium range

On the plus side you can indirect fire them so you can save tonnage on armor

[Kraven Kor]

Also, uh, I think you would want CASE with XL...

If you get an ammo crit, in side torso, with no CASE, Torso go boom. Dead mech. With case, you lose all the armor on that torso, but not the internal structure, I thought? Wait... nevermind, that is CASE II. Sorry.

[Der Zivilist]

I'd like to bring up a point that seems to have been missed so far, despite the link to the Artemis system on Sarna.

In tabletop, you need to have LoS to your target in order to benefit from the FCS. Meaning if you fire indirectly you do not get the bonus. I do not know how it will be implemented in MWO, but you should keep this in mind.

If you want to fire indirectly, you should be using a NARC beacon (but then you need to come much closer than your LRM's maximum range), or more ideally a TAG system (but ammo for this is incredibly expensive, and it's harder to keep on the victim).

Also note that in tabletop, all three systems are incompatible with each other, because you need to load a specific ammunition type for each of them.

Considering the limitations of the various guidance systems, their pricey ammo and the random factor of matches where you don't know if you'll get a proper scout to help you, I'm actually tending towards solving the issue by pure missile spam. Sure, an LRM15 with Artemis might be more efficient (direct fire mode only) than a LRM20 without it, but you can fire the LRM20 twelve times (240 missiles) for the same C-Bill price of firing the LRM15 eight times (120 missiles), Or, if you feel confident you can earn enough, run LRM20s with Artemis.

Remember: if the target survives, you aren't using enough missiles.


P.S.: I have a MWO-legal twin LRM20 catapult build with 1700 BV.
And no, you aren't getting it until I made good use of it ingame

Edited by Der Zivilist, 13 July 2012 - 11:46 AM.

[Glythe]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 13 July 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

From what has been said recently hardpoints are 1:1 with the weapons fitted to the original mech. The cat has 2 missile HPs and 4 energy so thats what your weapon limit is.

Nope do your research:

http://www.mechspecs...h-quot-Catapult

4x Missile
4x Energy

[Der Zivilist]

Hardpoints can change with every beta patch.

That said, if they do allow four missile hardpoints on the -C1, that would be opening up a lot of additional design avenues.

[Seabear]

The 3025 TRO lists a variant with 2 LRM20s, double the ammo and 2 SL.

[Lightdragon]

Pilotreborn, on 13 July 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

As the title says, what is a viable build with 2 LRM-20, and still have enough ammo to **** people up at distance without running out and having solid armor.

um... you dont even ahve to build it... theres already a catapult variant in the universe that has lrm20's and 2 tons of ammo for each launcher

[Huntsman]

Downgrade the engine for more ammo, case, artemis, and maybe more hs if there's room. Keep the jj if possible as they will allow you to poptart from cover. Focus on fire support so no brawler weapons "just in case". Leave cqb to your team mates. Its their job to protect you not your job to pilot an eclectic mess.

If you'd rather brawl however, 2 srm6's and as many tons of lasers and heat sinks as will fit along with possibly some armor and engine buffs would be a good way to go, and probably more fun. I find fire support to be a frustrating role. The map and the flow of the battle so often conspire to you targets.

[Ogryn]

Doing some relooks at this thread. Since I'll be playing solo and without lancemates, and relying on randoms for matches most days...

I cannot count on anyone else but myself, so my builds tend to reflect that when they include things like Artemis or extra ammo.

From a mechanical standpoint, massed small launchers with Artemis takes a hit in effectiveness versus tonnage. 1 ton extra per launcher, means 4 extra tons to get the same effect as +1 ton per LRM20.

To Huntsman and related glass cannon builds:

I'm not entirely sure, but from what I'm reading, the popular mentality ascribe to an all or nothing approach. While I'm not slapping in MGs for non existent infantry to maintain 'canon design principles' I'm also a fan of a balanced loadout. The confirmation of ammo explosions from both enemy fire and heat means that a non heat neutral mech runs the risk of doing some serious harm to itself putting out maximum rate of fire.

While relying on friends and lancemates to protect you is all well and good, those heat induced ammo explosions and simply running out of ammo means that the 'eclectic mess' could be considered a backup for those 10% chances. While you are never as effective as a specialist in the same role, the effects of counterbattery fire, bad luck, long range direct snipers or running out of ammo might leave you with a mech that can only DFA/charge, long before your armor loss damage would reduce you to scrap.

From painful experience playing other titles in the franchise and tabletop/MegaMek, having some backup weapons to do SOMETHING while being harassed/chased is better than the hopeless feeling of being chased down and killed by small arms fire from a marginally faster mech. The 6 tons in my builds for leakers/chargers/rushers/badgoddamnedluck is a fair tax to give me something to do. Nevermind the rather nasty effect that the devs confirmed that LRMs will bounce off for no damage at minimum ranges.