31 replies to this topic

[Hades Trooper]

What with IS mechs getting stupidly powerful acc/dec quirks?


I thought PGI wanted to bring back the feel of heavy stompy robots and yet i see a Rifleman with 70% acc/dec quirks to name but just one.

All the while the clan mechs feel like bricks without this. I personaly found this after driving the Warhammers and then going back to clan heavies and assults and notice how much slower the clan mechs are.

So not only are the IS weapons got shorter burn times for laser they can duck in and out of cover much faster than there clan counter parts.

Just another example in my eyes of OP IS mechs.

[Pjwned]

They shouldn't have quirks like that because yes they are ridiculous.

The only mechs that should be seeing quirks like that are the extremely light mechs like Locusts, Commandos, Mist Lynxes, etc. and maybe 1 or 2 other exceptions, otherwise agility quirks need to be left alone.

[Davegt27]

I got out my IS Champion and Hero Mechs for this last challenge and I thought PGI had screwed up

And had applied the acceleration/deceleration nerf to the wrong mechs

I kept saying what the heck is wrong with these Mechs, I got so mad I stripped the Cataphract and was about to sell it

It was a painful weekend for me with many sub 200 damage matches

The IS Mechs could not get out of their own way

I would say maybe the Rifleman needs the quirks

[MeiSooHaityu]

It's probably partially due to the inclusion of the Clan mechs in MWO. When it comes to clanners, Now we have 75 ton mechs (Timber Wolf) going almost 90kph, Assaults like the Gargoyle also doing shy of 90kph, Executioner also about that fast with MASC, and the best Clan medium (Stormcrow) doing 105kph. Those large engine don't just make Clan mechs fast, they make them very agile as well.

Machines like the Timber Wolf are so well equipped due to the pod space and lighter (and often smaller) Clan tech. Combine that with the high speed of a big yet light XL engine that is almost as durable as an IS STD and yet a lot lighter, and you have a big reason why IS mechs are getting agility buffs.

An IS mech has heavy weapons and equip along with a heavy STD engine or a super fragile XL. So, in an IS heavy, you want to mount competitive weaponry with the survivability of a Clan Heavy, you need a smaller STD engine that not only makes you slow, but also makes the mech handle like a pig.

So to compensate, PGI gives some mechs agility bonuses to help make them more competitive to their clan bretherin (even if a smaller engine still equates to a slower top speed).

That's my take on it anyway.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 16 February 2016 - 03:02 AM.

[MechWarrior849305]

Alistair Winter, on 16 February 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

Better at laservomit, better at ballistic boating, better at missile boating, just plain better overall.

Better @ PPC spamming 'cause dat speed...

[LordKnightFandragon]

Pjwned, on 16 February 2016 - 01:37 AM, said:

They shouldn't have quirks like that because yes they are ridiculous.

The only mechs that should be seeing quirks like that are the extremely light mechs like Locusts, Commandos, Mist Lynxes, etc. and maybe 1 or 2 other exceptions, otherwise agility quirks need to be left alone.

Naw, LIghts and mediums should handle like an upgraded Warhawk, everything else should handle like anywhere between a stock Warhawk and an Atlas.

Game needs to start feeling like rompy, stompy robots, not Call of Duty: Alpha War.

[Pjwned]

MeiSooHaityu, on 16 February 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

It's probably partially due to the inclusion of the Clan mechs in MWO. When it comes to clanners, Now we have 75 ton mechs (Timber Wolf) going almost 90kph, Assaults like the Gargoyle also doing shy of 90kph, Executioner also about that fast with MASC, and the best Clan medium (Stormcrow) doing 105kph. Those large engine don't just make Clan mechs fast, they make them very agile as well.

Machines like the Timber Wolf are so well equipped due to the pod space and lighter (and often smaller) Clan tech. Combine that with the high speed of a big yet light XL engine that is almost as durable as an IS STD and yet a lot lighter, and you have a big reason why IS mechs are getting agility buffs.

An IS mech has heavy weapons and equip along with a heavy STD engine or a super fragile XL. So, in an IS heavy, you want to mount competitive weaponry with the survivability of a Clan Heavy, you need a smaller STD engine that not only makes you slow, but also makes the mech handle like a pig.

So to compensate, PGI gives some mechs agility bonuses to help make them more competitive to their clan bretherin (even if a smaller engine still equates to a slower top speed).

That's my take on it anyway.

And that tells us why agility needs to be decoupled from engine rating.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Pjwned, on 16 February 2016 - 06:09 AM, said:

And that tells us why agility needs to be decoupled from engine rating.

That's kind of what those quirks are doing in a round about way. *shrug*

I mean, if they were truly decoupled and separate, you could have arms and torsos fast even though the engine was small and slow. I'm not sure the potential for that extreme is all that good either. Quirks seem an ok and solid way to do it.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 16 February 2016 - 06:14 AM.

[Pjwned]

MeiSooHaityu, on 16 February 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

That's kind of what those quirks are doing in a round about way. *shrug*

...Quirks seem an ok and solid way to do it.

That's not good enough because engine rating still affects agility for battlemechs that way. How do you balance agility quirks on battlemechs that can (and do) change their engine rating?

Agility should be static values and if you have different engine ratings changing those values then that makes it all ****ed up.

Quote

I mean, if they were truly decoupled and separate, you could have arms and torsos fast even though the engine was small and slow. I'm not sure the potential for that extreme is all that good either.

There's nothing wrong with that at all.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Pjwned, on 16 February 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

That's not good enough because engine rating still affects agility for battlemechs that way. How do you balance agility quirks on battlemechs that can (and do) change their engine rating?

Agility should be static values and if you have different engine ratings changing those values then that makes it all ****ed up.

There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Ehhh *shrug*. I could care less honestly. I'm happy enough with the system now. Detached agility really just seems to benefit or harm the extreme engine sizes more than anything.

Anyway, I dont care enough about it to petition one way or another so quirks seem fine to me.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 16 February 2016 - 06:29 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Davegt27, on 16 February 2016 - 01:59 AM, said:

I got out my IS Champion and Hero Mechs for this last challenge and I thought PGI had screwed up

And had applied the acceleration/deceleration nerf to the wrong mechs

I kept saying what the heck is wrong with these Mechs, I got so mad I stripped the Cataphract and was about to sell it

It was a painful weekend for me with many sub 200 damage matches

The IS Mechs could not get out of their own way

I would say maybe the Rifleman needs the quirks

Try walking around a corner into a nest of Ebon Jags and then have to "quickly" reverse back to cover...

[Gyrok]

MeiSooHaityu, on 16 February 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

It's probably partially due to the inclusion of the Clan mechs in MWO. When it comes to clanners, Now we have 75 ton mechs (Timber Wolf) going almost 90kph, Assaults like the Gargoyle also doing shy of 90kph, Executioner also about that fast with MASC, and the best Clan medium (Stormcrow) doing 105kph. Those large engine don't just make Clan mechs fast, they make them very agile as well.

Machines like the Timber Wolf are so well equipped due to the pod space and lighter (and often smaller) Clan tech. Combine that with the high speed of a big yet light XL engine that is almost as durable as an IS STD and yet a lot lighter, and you have a big reason why IS mechs are getting agility buffs.

An IS mech has heavy weapons and equip along with a heavy STD engine or a super fragile XL. So, in an IS heavy, you want to mount competitive weaponry with the survivability of a Clan Heavy, you need a smaller STD engine that not only makes you slow, but also makes the mech handle like a pig.

So to compensate, PGI gives some mechs agility bonuses to help make them more competitive to their clan bretherin (even if a smaller engine still equates to a slower top speed).

That's my take on it anyway.

Then, the comp teams run XL engines in the mechs buffed out the yin-yang with accel/decel agility quirks, because according to everyone but the "clamz OP" crowd, the IS XL is still superior to the STD engine, and everyone runs XLs anyway. Then IS agility becomes OP compared to clan mechs, because they are buffed to run STD engines but it makes IS XLs overpowered by default.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:

Then, the comp teams run XL engines in the mechs buffed out the yin-yang with accel/decel agility quirks, because according to everyone but the "clamz OP" crowd, the IS XL is still superior to the STD engine, and everyone runs XLs anyway. Then IS agility becomes OP compared to clan mechs, because they are buffed to run STD engines but it makes IS XLs overpowered by default.

Lol.

Coming up with wild extremes is no way to condemn a system. I like how the whole argument against is qualified by "buffed out the ying yang" remark. None of these are that severe, and mechs that carry higher agility buffs (like say a MAD-BH) have an engine cap at 300 for a 75 ton mech (almost had a cap of 275).

Sure, if agility quirks are wildly set to the point of absurdity on all IS mechs, and engine caps are raised on certain mechs too, then there might be issues. That can be said for anything though.

[Gyrok]

MeiSooHaityu, on 16 February 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

Lol.

Coming up with wild extremes is no way to condemn a system. I like how the whole argument against is qualified by "buffed out the ying yang" remark. None of these are that severe, and mechs that carry higher agility buffs (like say a MAD-BH) have an engine cap at 300 for a 75 ton mech (almost had a cap of 275).

Sure, if agility quirks are wildly set to the point of absurdity on all IS mechs, and engine caps are raised on certain mechs too, then there might be issues. That can be said for anything though.

60-70% is actually quite significant, especially considering that is about how much agility the clans lost and never got back.

So, essentially, because of the way the buffs work, a WHM running a STD280 engine would be the equivalent in a clan mech of a TW running XL480 (if such a thing existed anyway...).

Understand the significance now?

Edited by Gyrok, 16 February 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

60-70% is actually quite significant, especially considering that is about how much agility the clans lost and never got back.

So, essentially, because of the way the buffs work, a WHM running a STD280 engine would be the equivalent in a clan mech of a TW running XL480 (if such a thing existed anyway...).

Understand the significance now?

Nope, I just see flawed reasoning.

Those quirks are assigned on a mech by mech basis and values like a 60% bonus for a Warhawk is another extreme example to make your point. A Warhawk isn't obsurdly slow for an assault, so it wouldn't get 60% buffs to accel and decell. The mech I pointed out that has those values is the Bounty Hunter. Have you ever piloted one? It is SLOW for a heavy. A 300 engine in a 75 ton HEAVY, not ASSAULT, is dog-ish. That stat helps it move from a standstill but it doesn't make it into a poking Locust sniper. It still accells slow and decells slow. it just isn't as abysmal as it could be.

Besides, maybe a Warhawk does deserve some agility buffs too. Maybe that is another conversation to have. Again, doesn't mean the whole system is borked.

Besides, the Executioner Prime has MASC and still receives a 40% buff to accell and decell. I don't see people complaining about that one. I don't care about that one lol.

Even after all of this, is the issue you have really with the quirk system or quirk values assigned? if you feel a specific value seems out of wack, that's fine. I just wouldn't condemn a system over it.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 16 February 2016 - 07:35 AM.

[Gyrok]

MeiSooHaityu, on 16 February 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

Nope, I just see flawed reasoning.

Those quirks are assigned on a mech by mech basis and values like a 60% bonus for a Warhawk is another extreme example to make your point. A Warhawk isn't obsurdly slow for an assault, so it wouldn't get 60% buffs to accel and decell. The mech I pointed out that has those values is the Bounty Hunter. Have you ever piloted one? It is SLOW for a heavy. A 300 engine in a 75 ton HEAVY, not ASSAULT, is dog-ish. That stat helps it move from a standstill but it doesn't make it into a poking Locust sniper. It still accells slow and decells slow. it just isn't as abysmal as it could be.

Besides, maybe a Warhawk does deserve some agility buffs too. Maybe that is another conversation to have. Again, doesn't mean the whole system is borked.

Besides, the Executioner Prime has MASC and still receives a 40% buff to accell and decell. I don't see people complaining about that one. I don't care about that one lol.

Even after all of this, is the issue you have really with the quirk system or quirk values assigned? if you feel a specific value seems out of wack, that's fine. I just wouldn't condemn a system over it.

The mech I pointed out is a WHM-6D...have you ever piloted it? It is an amazingly lithe 70 ton energy boat that can wreak havoc upon poor unsuspecting fools with a well quirked 53 pt alpha, and peeks so well, my HBR is jealous. It can also bring as big an XL engine as any other WHM can (XL340 @ ~85 kph).

EDIT: You realize I am talking about the Warhammer, not the Warhawk right? IS 70 ton heavy. No clan mech has accel/decel buffs except the SMN and KFX/ADR.

Edited by Gyrok, 16 February 2016 - 07:49 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

The mech I pointed out is a WHM-6D...have you ever piloted it? It is an amazingly lithe 70 ton energy boat that can wreak havoc upon poor unsuspecting fools with a well quirked 53 pt alpha, and peeks so well, my HBR is jealous. It can also bring as big an XL engine as any other WHM can (XL340 @ ~85 kph).

EDIT: You realize I am talking about the Warhammer, not the Warhawk right? IS 70 ton heavy. No clan mech has accel/decel buffs except the SMN and KFX/ADR.

I do now . Still doesn't change anything though. Specific issues with mechs do not condemn a system. If you feel the Warhammer needs or doesn't need something, that doesn't mean the whole system is bad. If it needs obvious fixing, it is up to PGI to correct it (like the Black Jack Structure buff).

BTW: The Executioner according to Smurfy has Accel/Decell buffs so either Smurfy is lying or you are mistaken.

"EXE-PRIME CENTER TORSO
ACCELERATION RATE: 40.00 % DECELERATION RATE: 40.00 % TURN RATE: 25.00 % TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 30.00 % TORSO TURN ANGLE (YAW): 10.00" - Smurfy

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 16 February 2016 - 08:22 AM.

[Gyrok]

MeiSooHaityu, on 16 February 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

I do now . Still doesn't change anything though. Specific issues with mechs do not condemn a system. If you feel the Warhammer needs or doesn't need something, that doesn't mean the whole system is bad. If it needs obvious fixing, it is up to PGI to correct it (like the Black Jack Structure buff).

BTW: The Executioner according to Smurfy has Accel/Decell buffs so either Smurfy is lying or you are mistaken.

"EXE-PRIME CENTER TORSO
ACCELERATION RATE: 40.00 % DECELERATION RATE: 40.00 % TURN RATE: 25.00 % TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 30.00 % TORSO TURN ANGLE (YAW): 10.00" - Smurfy

Wow...shows how long it has been since I looked at the EXE. That must have been snuck in at some point recently...

Either way...the EXE still needs *way* more than accel/decel buffs,

I wonder if that is counting MASC, or actual quirks...?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Gyrok, on 16 February 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

Wow...shows how long it has been since I looked at the EXE. That must have been snuck in at some point recently...

Either way...the EXE still needs *way* more than accel/decel buffs,

I wonder if that is counting MASC, or actual quirks...?

I think it is actually quirks. That plus MASC sounds pretty nice and quick. Luckily MASC I'd getting a speed buff too, but I think it is purely top speed and not acceleration...I think.

[Cyborne Elemental]

The ACCEL/DECEL from the skilltree nerf is the one thing I wish they would revert.

Bump into an obstacle or rough terrain & spend 5 seconds recovering speed, have to stop suddenly & you spend 5 seconds standing around like "Duh? please punch me in the face good sir" before you're actually moving again.

Its very frustrating trying to get out of harms way if you ever get stopped or slowed down, and it just gets worse the heavier you go.