306 replies to this topic

[Chados]

Gyrok, on 21 February 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

Can we get single projectile ACs? You can have all the bullet hoses in the world if I can have a ballistic not named Gauss that was single projectile weapon to a single component...

Sure, why not?

[Parnage Winters]

I was tempted to have a discussion on the pro's and con's of the various mechs but then I see people calling the mist lynx and adder super good. As someone who has the Adder and loves it, it's a less tough urbanmech with more weapon options.

It's pointless to attempt rational discussion when measurements of CW is considered a measurement of balance and the Adder is somehow too good.

Do what was done last time, get 24 decent players in a lobby and have them drop in clan and is mechs respectively for a few rounds and have them swap faction every other round.

Conversely, git gud. Lol at comments that centurions can't kill clan lights and streak crows are good. Literally the best comments. "GUYS I KILLED A LOCUST STORMCROW OP NERF"

[Eider]

You are confusing good with super good and are also blindsided by the fact that its still way better than other mechs in its weight catagory with IS. Does one really need to get into hardpoints? it can field more than say a commando or locust etc. But im used to stupidly pointless arguments that sidetrack from clan supporters. Lets compare your worst adder to say a commando? gg.

[Metus regem]

Gyrok, on 21 February 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

Can we get single projectile ACs? You can have all the bullet hoses in the world if I can have a ballistic not named Gauss that was single projectile weapon to a single component...

So that means I can haz a RAC/5? Sure fair trade!

[Graugger]

Face it Clans were buffed so they'd quit QQing and play CW again.

Notice the sudden stomping going on on the northern fringes of the map again.

PGI imbalanced things intentionally.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 21 February 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

Can we get single projectile ACs? You can have all the bullet hoses in the world if I can have a ballistic not named Gauss that was single projectile weapon to a single component...

Sure! As long as they weigh 7, 9, 13, and 15 tons, each, for 2-, 5-, 10-, and 20-class Ultras!

Enjoy!

[Aresye]

Appogee, on 21 February 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

In fact, I play mostly Clan Mechs when pugging. That's how I know just how strong they already were, without needing de-nerfing or clubbing the IS.

Good for you. I'm glad to hear that Clan mechs still work for you in an anything goes queue where massive discrepancies in skill and builds is commonplace. The Mist Lynx must be OP as well considering I can make that work in public queue.

I on the other hand, shelved my Clan mechs for public queue. Make no mistake though, I tried many times to make them work, but at the end of the day the combination of structure quirks, laser range quirks, burn duration quirks, heat gen quirks, accel/decel/torso turn rate quirks, and (in general) better hardpoint placement and hitboxes, the IS was just flat out better.

You have time to react and twist damage from a TBR spewing laser vomit. You DO NOT have time to react and twist damage from a Black Knight shooting a pinpoint, 58 damage alpha in 0.77s duration.

I'd personally like to see another Clan vs. IS test between the top players. Maybe now the Clan side might actually win a couple games, instead of getting 6-0'd by IS.

[Sjorpha]

It's early to say, but IMO the IS vs. Clan balance feels really close now.

Some of the IS mech variants that got range nerfs lost their niche because laser sniper was the only competitively useful role for them (X5, BLR-1S and so on), those mechs will need some attention. There are still some clan mechs that are too weak as well.

But for the top mechs out there, faction balance is good. And there is actually a lot of chassis in that category.

[Necromonger Commander]

I am glad I have plenty of Clam Mechs.

[Damia Savon]

ShinobiHunter, on 21 February 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

I'm sure you'll find a way talk crap to clanners anyhow...

Any self respecting member of the IS talks crap to clanners. Only bad thing is we lose "yo mama" jokes cause clanners are actually proud they are spit out by baby making robots.

[Chados]

So I geared up in a TBR-C(C) that I won in the October event just to remind myself how the other half lives. I have not run this mech since I mastered it right before the Marauder came out and this is a wholly new loadout I've never tested but it mirrors the loadout I run on my Dragon Fang but for the missiles. One uAC/10 and 3 tons of ammo, 2 cLPL, one SSRM4, 1 ton of ammo, radar dep, uAC/10 cooldown module. "C" right arm, Prime torsos, "S" left arm. Missile velocity quirk +10. Almost max armor. 1.3 score for heat management, and firepower just over 40. Drop in solo queue on Polar Highlands.

624 damage, one kill, 4 most-damage kills, 5 assists. Top damage on my side and second-most in the match, in a 12-10 defeat that happened because I stupidly cored myself out facetanking a 4-uAC KGC (I got him) halfway through, which left my left arm and torso one-shottable...and that happened shortly after that, taking my LPLs with it; I was out of SSRM ammo and thus didn't have much left to carry for the rest of the match. Ended up getting ganked by an Arctic Cheetah and left my side with two heavily damaged allies lighter than me. And I'm not trying to brag here-this performance wasn't because of any skill I might have. I'm not a very good pilot, I'm low tier 4 in that place where one loss puts me back in high tier 5.

If I'd been running a Marauder or Rifleman, this would have been 325 damage and an early out, tops because of all the stupid mistakes I made while trying to get used to what is to me an unusual mech in combat. This was all the mech, all day, all the way. And what jumped out at me was the mobility. This thing runs at 87kph and accelerates like a dragster, and it can stop on a dime. It can reverse into cover at warp speed; in my RFL-3N or 3C or MAD-3R I'd get pounded while trying to get back under a ridge crest to recharge weapons or dissipate heat. In this thing, it's up and back, easy peasy, while the return shots from the other side hit the top of the hill as I vanish over the top. Plus it has 80 front CT armor. It's every bit as good as its reputation suggests!

Edited by Chados, 21 February 2016 - 08:22 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 February 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Sure! As long as they weigh 7, 9, 13, and 15 tons, each, for 2-, 5-, 10-, and 20-class Ultras!

Enjoy!

That is not a bad idea. And give IS lower weight AC that fires multiple pellets like the current Clan setup.....

[Ace Selin]

I haven't read the pages of this but im genuinely interested in peoples take on how IS can beat the SRM brawler Madcat under 300 metres.
What IS heavy can equal its performance?

A seperate question ..
What IS heavy can bring Dual AC10s without an XL with enough ammo and backup weapons?

Edited by Ace Selin, 21 February 2016 - 08:24 PM.

[Chados]

Ace Selin, on 21 February 2016 - 08:24 PM, said:

I haven't read the pages of this but im genuinely interested in peoples take on how IS can beat the SRM brawler Madcat under 300 metres.
What IS heavy can equal its performance?

A seperate question ..
What IS heavy can bring Dual AC10s without an XL with enough ammo and backup weapons?

Question 1: I don't know but someone else might have an answer. The key to killing a TBR, in my opinion, is to hit it in the side torsos or from behind. Most effective is to distract him and let an ally hit him from behind while he's focused on you, in my opinion.

Question 2: That depends on your definition of 'enough.' A Jagermech or Rifleman can rock two AC/10s and carry 3 tons of ammo plus two medium lasers, but you're gonna be slow. STD 240, about 64.8 kph before speed tweak. I like that setup but your mileage may vary. You can drop armor for another couple ML but you're going to be real hot and real flimsy.

Edited by Chados, 21 February 2016 - 08:35 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Clan vs IS balance? Let's see what either side has going for it...

Clan:
-longer range on E weapons
-higher damage on E weapons
-all weapons smaller & lighter than IS (except MPL and smaller, which still have the above advantages)
-1 point more armor per ton if FerroFibrous
-7 fewer critical slots occupied by FF armor or ES structure
-2 fewer critical slots (1 per side torso) per XL engine; engine can survive loss of one side torso
-built-in, no-weight CASE in all components (Omni or non)
-smaller double heat sinks (can actually fit in a CT or leg, locked equipment notwithstanding)
-Targeting Computers Mk I-VII

IS:
-cooler-firing lasers
-optional non-pulse, non-ER E weapons (straight PPC, LL, ML, and SL)
-single-shot ACs for 100% PPFLD for rated damage (opposed to burst-firing Clan ACs, which are considered mediocre)
-lack of locked equipment (compared to Clan omnimechs only, of course)
-multiple mechs with considerable buffs to structure, armor, mobility, and weapons behavior
-shorter laser durations
-Command Console

What's basically the SAME?

-max sensor range, including with AP and/or ASR module
-TIG time, including buffed by modules
-behavior of ALL modules
-amount of missile/AC/Gauss ammo per ton
-critical health of installed equipment (10HP for most items)

Just a short list off the top of my head at bed time.

So, one might think that the Clan mechs have an advantage at range, and ESPECIALLY mid-range. And the IS mechs would have an advantage in the short-range game, where their cooler and shorter-duration weapons can out-DPS Clan opponents.

That sounds just like BEFORE the last patch!

Sure, you still have Streak Crows and Streak Dogs out there crushing light mechs that try to swarm the Dire Whales. IS still has a medium 45-tonner that can tank a 55-tonner's damage (BJ wasn't nerfed THAT hard, y'all). Not ONE Clan heavy has the high arm weapon mounts like ROFLman or Jagermech, or even Blackjack for that matter (SHC is as close as you'll get right now), to beat folks down with the superior IS dakka in hill humping and corner peeking.

Play your mechs to their strengths, folks. And if you don't enjoy playing the way that your mechs' strengths require for success, then either enjoy losing or get mechs that DO match the way you wanna play.

It's a game, not rocket science.

[Nauht]

Ace Selin, on 21 February 2016 - 08:24 PM, said:

I haven't read the pages of this but im genuinely interested in peoples take on how IS can beat the SRM brawler Madcat under 300 metres.
What IS heavy can equal its performance?

A seperate question ..
What IS heavy can bring Dual AC10s without an XL with enough ammo and backup weapons?

1 - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2458bcfc8c9368c

2 - http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b919a792e2ffb05

Edited by Nauht, 21 February 2016 - 10:00 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Chados, on 21 February 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

Saw it coming. Posted about it, too. Now it's happening. Enjoy it, Clans. But remember: Paul is watching.

Already seeing more Clan mechs in game than IS, but for those working on the Rifleman challenge. I'm supporting Dires and Executioners now, not Atlases and Banshees...I can't remember the last time I saw a Banshee in the public queues.

I am aware Paul is watching. I just hope he's paying attention instead of seeing a mist lynx killing an LRM king crab and then nerfing the mist lynx... jokes aside.

Perhaps population of mechs isn't a good way to verify what is OP or not, sure it is a part of it but what is new and changes.

For eg... a new mech can draw attention away from older ones... hence why banshees are not seen that much often or the atlas... durring an event that was targeting the founders by having an event for the original 4 mechs. Jenner, Hunchback, Catapult, Atlas... the most common thread or post at the time was people thanking PGI for giving them a reason to use these old mechs again and remembering how much fun they are and how good their Atlas/ Catapult/ Jenner is.
Even though the release of the stalker, jagermech, and firestarter stole those mechs thunder in the overal timeline.

Here we got lots of Clan buffs that are much needed (most of the "tier 5-3" mechs) as well as some other changes. It is true it's hard to see a Banshee... maybe also by the geometry change in the stalker and incorperation of higher missile count than 6 in the side torsos...

When the Kodiak comes in yo uwill not see many direwolfs or executioners for like a month most likely.

Juodas Varnas, on 21 February 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

I just find it so funny how in the same patch they un-nerfed all the Top Clan mechs that were still easily the best mechs of their weight classes AND threw out a global blanket nerf on the IS side.

It's just so random.

I think it was to re-evaluate on how good some of these mechs are and/or thinking on more specific methods of quirking... for eg it's easy to say "timberwolf [in general] is OP!". but it's hard to say an ER PPC Timberwolf is. Even though not only 1 but 2 ran them stock as a primary weapon... Which is a fair statement because using stock omnipods (looking at the Timberwolf Prime and D) is a really valid plan on an omnimech as well as a good way to keep each mech individualised instead of the same build on all timberwolfs. I am looking forward to see if PGI adds more specific quirks to omnimechs as a good way to keep the good mechs good instead of OP, while nerfing the under performing ones.

It's a bit random. However PGI is a fan of doing incrimental adjustments. The games ballance to clan has changed a lot since those quirks...
Laser range...
Heatsinks...
Engine...

etc.

Chados, on 21 February 2016 - 06:11 AM, said:

Don't forget the advanced zoom boosts the IS doesn't get, LOL. And how many IS heavy mechs are in tier 1 per Metamechs? Zero. It's HBR, TBR, EBJ. How many assaults? Zero. Cue the Dire Wolf. I'm just saying.

MetaMechs is a persons view on the quote and quote "Competitive meta scene" in MW: O. It is very subjective and opinionated and many people even those who dabble in the competitive scene a lot disagree with metamechs on certain areas.

Some units in the comp scene praise the Ice Ferret (the worst clan medium mech in game many consider) as one of the best CW mechs to have in the line up due to it's blend of armour, speed, and missile firepower for generator rushes.. I could try and nit pick every disagreement commonly found between MetaMechs

Another problem is in the name of the service- META mechs. The Meta in the game is barely a meta. You and your 12 man team can change it in a split second on that very game... for eg: meta tactic for terra therma is go centre... way to change meta? go to the open valley instead.
Or in terms of mech selection and weapons... meta typically being long range laser vomit, what does your 12 man bring? several TAG's, majority in LRM boats and the rest in LRM boats [LRM being one of the least desirable competitive weapon in game] and they absolutely hammer the enemy team.

However of course this all depends on the players right and their ability to co ordinate? well. That is a pretty large variable that should be taken into consideration of the meta. I should state a number of people have extremely good statistics, KDR's, are tier 1, etc... meanwhile all they play is an Atlas.

In my humble opinion. I do not really believe in much of the scales for op/ up or bad / good or competitive / pathetic mechs.
The majority of my mechs are not meta and on top of that none of them run a meta build. I often do quite well in them, even if my single cue games are in a tier 1-2 games. However I have also played in the higher ups in CW and group cue and have not suffered to much there and when I have, it wasn't due to my poor taste of mech or build. But was the fact I do not have some of the builds that would fit in a tightly nit group. As example for ice ferrets above... my ice ferret didn't have the same build, far from it... and using a mist lynx as a substitute was just a weak link in the chain.
Nothing to do with my choice of playstyle/ mech or my skill. Just my stubbornness to change a build only for 5 matches.


However as my original point is... the whole topic of the meta is opinion based. I am no more 'right' than MetaMechs in terms of what is and isn't up with the game. I only sport a perspective that isn't the same... take it as you will.

Johnny Z, on 21 February 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

A Storm Crow would destroy a Centurian in a 1 v 1 with ease.

At the moment Omni mechs are not so much easy mode like they were. But there is a lot of minor issues here and there.

Unless you play siimlar variants with similar performance...

Centurion D will **** over a Stormcrow C if both have LBX 10's.

[WANTED]

Darn. I'm so going to miss those clan whining post.

[Nauht]

WANTED, on 21 February 2016 - 09:34 PM, said:

Darn. I'm so going to miss those clan whining post.

Don't worry! It2all IS whining posts for you to read now.

[Appogee]

Aresye, on 21 February 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

Good for you. I'm glad to hear that Clan mechs still work for you in an anything goes queue where massive discrepancies in skill and builds is commonplace.

They work for me because nothing the IS has can beat the inherent advantages of:

• survivable XL torsos
  
• interchangeable min/maxed omnipod hardpoints
  
• light weapons, meaning more weapons
  
• Large caliber UACs and Streaks

The only quirks that provide any genuine counter to these are the structure quirks on some IS Mechs and some additional heat efficiency quirks.

Aresye, on 21 February 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

You have time to react and twist damage from a TBR spewing laser vomit. You DO NOT have time to react and twist damage from a Black Knight shooting a pinpoint, 58 damage alpha in 0.77s duration.

Matter of fact, I soloed God Copy in his pinpoint high alpha Black Knight on Frozen City, in my Orion IIC with UACs and SRMs just last night.

Clan players need to adapt. Laser vomit is not the only competitive weapon loadout available. You have UAC2s, 10s and even 20s. You have Streak 4s and 6s. Nothing IS has can match either of these.

Aresye, on 21 February 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

I'd personally like to see another Clan vs. IS test between the top players. Maybe now the Clan side might actually win a couple games, instead of getting 6-0'd by IS.

It would be interesting.

But here's the thing. Very few matches outside of the top tiers of competitive play consist of "the best IS Mechs". In the CW queue, you get teams with this assortment of poor IS Mechs vs Timbies, Whales, Crows, Hellbringers. So most actual matches the Clans have the better Mechs due to the inherent advantages of Clan Techs, and if you're lucky, half the Mechs at any given time will be the IS quirked meta-Mechs.

Edited by Appogee, 21 February 2016 - 10:26 PM.