306 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

Jenovah, on 22 February 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

Everyone likes to cite the MarkVII TC... I personally do not know anyone who uses a Mark VII TC @ 7 tons and 7 slots. That space is usually for my heatsinks, personally. I could be wrong, but I'd like to see a CW/Comp viable build that equips it.

This is true. The largest I have ever equipped was a MIII on the HGN(Highlander)-MII and even then If I could fit a larger engine in there I'd happily downgrade it to a TC 1

[Der Hesse]

Apocryph0n, on 22 February 2016 - 05:45 AM, said:

The Clans aren't OP. The problem isn't the Clanners 'Mech choice, the problem is yours. There's plenty of IS Mechs that outperform Clans, even at Long Range.

Which plenty IS mechs outperform Clan mechs at long range?
Educate me!

Edited by Der Hesse, 22 February 2016 - 06:11 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Juodas Varnas, on 21 February 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

I just find it so funny how in the same patch they un-nerfed all the Top Clan mechs that were still easily the best mechs of their weight classes AND threw out a global blanket nerf on the IS side.

It's just so random.

big big step bakc form chassis balance, again. very sad.

Instea dof relaising that overbuffing sspecific single IS emchs was bad, thy unnerrfed some Clanners . LOL seriously I do not even. No idea what PGI is doing. I think there is no one over there having a proper oversight about mechs in comparison.

Edited by Lily from animove, 22 February 2016 - 06:13 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Jenovah, on 22 February 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

Everyone likes to cite the MarkVII TC... I personally do not know anyone who uses a Mark VII TC @ 7 tons and 7 slots. That space is usually for my heatsinks, personally. I could be wrong, but I'd like to see a CW/Comp viable build that equips it.

I only cited the TC7, because it was a direct reply to Widowmaker saying that the IS get the same Quirks as the TC7. But I do agree with you. not many builds actually use the big TC7, most use the smaller ones. However some Assault mechs can and do use the TC7, and they are getting massive buffs. If as you say the smaller TC variants are insignificant, then removing the crit chance enhancements from all TC (and from the IS Comand Console) should not pose any problems.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 22 February 2016 - 06:28 AM.

[nehebkau]

TRUTH

I was in a CW drop with a bunch of pugs, well it was a 4-man, a 2-man and 6 pugs. We were against a bunch of pugs on the clan side. We got smoked, and people in the game were crying about how over-powered clan mechs were now.

TRUTH
It wasn't the clan mechs, it was our players. They were horrible! Horrible in the extreme. Only 2 of us managed to break 1000 and I was 800 damage above that other 1000-mark player (we had 3 players who did ~200 damage). It wasn't that the other team was any good -- they were pretty bad as demonstrated by my damage. They had bad positioning, bad trades and no strategy -- but my team was worse! Now the worst part was that the players on my team didn't even realize how horrible players they were -- all were sportin' those lovely vanity unit tags that automatically mean they know what they are doing.

Conclusion:
Unless you routinely switch between clan in CW and IS in CW -- you know very little about overall balance of clan and IS mechs. Maybe you have an idea of how meta stacks up, but meta is not the entire game.

[Jenovah]

Rushin Roulette, on 22 February 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

I only cited the TC7, because it was a direct reply to Widowmaker saying that the IS get the same Quirks as the TC7. But I do agree with you. not many builds actually use the big TC7, most use the smaller ones. However some Assault mechs can and do use the TC7, and they are getting massive buffs. If as you say the smaller TC variants are insignificant, then removing the crit chance enhancements from all TC (and from the IS Comand Console) should not pose any problems.

Gotcha, I guess I missed that part. For me, I run the Mark 1 on a few builds- specifically because I do not run C-ERLL due to burn times, but to boost my range on my C-LPL instead.... That being said, I didn't say the smaller TC's are insignificant.I can't say to the affirmative or negative whether the crit chance helps or not, but for my builds, its only on laser vomit that I carry the TC1 for the range boost as stated above. Anything with SRM's I don't- its another ton of ammo or a HS for me.

Edited by Jenovah, 22 February 2016 - 06:33 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Rushin Roulette, on 22 February 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

I seem to be blind... which mech has the advanced zoom quirk (and the module does not count, as that is neither free nor mech/IS specific). +35% projectile speed is probable on some quirked IS mech... but I cant remember which one and if any are quite up to 35%.
Finally, the point which makes the clan TC so damn OP is the crit chance increase for every single weapon installed. IS mechs never had increased crit chances on any weapons, and if there would haev been, then they would have been on single weapons systems on single mech chassies.

Show me the Clan targeting computer than gives energy heat reduction, additonal structure, laser duration and ballstic cooldown? What i meant was that Clans need to pay heavily in tonnage and slots to get their 'quirks' whereas IS get quirks tonnage / slot free. (of course i know clans get quirks too - but only on chassis with locked in severely bad build choices)

Crit chance is nice, but really not a big thing since it has ZERO effect on shots fired at armour, which is 2/3 of the time. The Nice thing with TCs is the projectile speed, thats it really. Totally not worth using unless you are running UACs or PPCs, but with current stats, worth it then.

[Lugh]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 22 February 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

if there would be balance, there would be no laser vomit
and units would not change factions whenever one faction was "fixed" so often

There WAS balance when poptarts were 'kings' of the battlefield. The predominate meta was 2 ERPPCs and Gauss.

It was very beatable but most of the underhive laserscan l33ts complained to high heaven until such time as there was less PPFLD than instant hit scan. That way they could do their cowardly few points of damage and retreat while playing dodgeball with projectiles because if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a PPC.

[Rushin Roulette]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 February 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

Show me the Clan targeting computer than gives energy heat reduction, additonal structure, laser duration and ballstic cooldown? What i meant was that Clans need to pay heavily in tonnage and slots to get their 'quirks' whereas IS get quirks tonnage / slot free. (of course i know clans get quirks too - but only on chassis with locked in severely bad build choices)

Crit chance is nice, but really not a big thing since it has ZERO effect on shots fired at armour, which is 2/3 of the time. The Nice thing with TCs is the projectile speed, thats it really. Totally not worth using unless you are running UACs or PPCs, but with current stats, worth it then.

The clans get them as well, those quirks, you know? look at the Excel file posted in the patch notes;

http://mwomercs.com/...53-16-feb-2016/

The very first mech MLX-A (CT location) Energy Heat generation -15% (up from -10%)
Additional Structure: (HD) +12 (up from +8), (LT & RT) +10 (Up from +6), (LL & RL) +12 (unchanged)

That was litterally the very first damn mech in the Excel file.. But OK, the MLX is not a Tier 1 metamech... lets look at the WHK then which is a Tier 1 or close to Tier 1 Mech.

WHK-A (LA) +21 Structure (unchanged), (CT) +9 Structure (unchanged), (LT & RT) +9 Structure (unchanged), (RA) +28 Armour (Unchanged)

[sycocys]

nehebkau, on 22 February 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

Conclusion:

the worst part was that the players on my team didn't even realize how horrible players they were

This is all that really needs to be said.

[Widowmaker1981]

Rushin Roulette, on 22 February 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

The clans get them as well, those quirks, you know? look at the Excel file posted in the patch notes;

http://mwomercs.com/...53-16-feb-2016/

The very first mech MLX-A (CT location) Energy Heat generation -15% (up from -10%)
Additional Structure: (HD) +12 (up from +8), (LT & RT) +10 (Up from +6), (LL & RL) +12 (unchanged)

That was litterally the very first damn mech in the Excel file.. But OK, the MLX is not a Tier 1 metamech... lets look at the WHK then which is a Tier 1 or close to Tier 1 Mech.

WHK-A (LA) +21 Structure (unchanged), (CT) +9 Structure (unchanged), (LT & RT) +9 Structure (unchanged), (RA) +28 Armour (Unchanged)

Yes, mechs with locked gear. The decent warhawk quirks? Are all for Ballistic weapons and Ballisitic hardpoint arms, and thats because the 'Hawk is running with 10 tons of fixed DHS it doesnt need for ballistic builds.

As far as i know, the ONLY clan mech with both decent quirks AND the tonnage to run a decent TC is the Warhawk.

Anyone complaining about OP Warhawks?

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 22 February 2016 - 06:56 AM.

[sycocys]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 February 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

Anyone complaining about OP Warhawks?

I'm rejoicing with my OP Warhawks, but they really are only slightly better with the TC's. With the quirked uAC builds, it didn't really make a world of difference, you just lose ammo for more guaranteed hits.

The Mist Lynx in any conversation about being unbalanced or OP..... it would need last patch BJ level quirks to be even on the list of somewhat competitive mechs. It's a bad mech, with bad pods, a small engine, terrible amounts of armor, and far too much crap locked on it.

[Widowmaker1981]

sycocys, on 22 February 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

I'm rejoicing with my OP Warhawks, but they really are only slightly better with the TC's. With the quirked uAC builds, it didn't really make a world of difference, you just lose ammo for more guaranteed hits.

Imo the Warhawk is easily the best Clan assault at the moment (until the Cuddle Bear comes out anyway), and the TCs make its PPC and UAC builds better, but its still not in the same league as the BNC-3M, Battlemasters or Stalkers.

[sycocys]

Dual uAC10s and 2 SRM 6s (or 3 srms4s on the one with the CT mount) - Haven't found much of anything that stands up to it short of running into 3-4+ mechs. Spreads damage like a boss and you can S&B with both arms WHILE they are loaded up with weapons, just tap off rounds while you switch arms.

Really is about equal with or without the TC, just depends which mode you are running. TC is nice enough to have for quick drops where more often than not you won't burn through all of your ammo - ammo is a necessity for CW.

[Gyrok]

Ace Selin, on 21 February 2016 - 11:19 PM, said:

Answered before you posted. Oh and you must be an a.ss in real life too i guess.

Nope, I just typically do the research on an issue before asking a question in an asinine manner insinuating that there is not a justifiable answer, or even a valid one.

[Widowmaker1981]

sycocys, on 22 February 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:

Dual uAC10s and 2 SRM 6s (or 3 srms4s on the one with the CT mount) - Haven't found much of anything that stands up to it short of running into 3-4+ mechs. Spreads damage like a boss and you can S&B with both arms WHILE they are loaded up with weapons, just tap off rounds while you switch arms.

Really is about equal with or without the TC, just depends which mode you are running. TC is nice enough to have for quick drops where more often than not you won't burn through all of your ammo - ammo is a necessity for CW.

Well, yeah, i don't really like running SRMs on assaults, so i run that with 2xUAC10 + 2xERML + TC5, and still get 7 tons of ammo, which is more than enough for 2 UAC10s (1400 dmg potential).

I wouldn't personally bring a Warhawk to CW anyway, low mounts are too much of a liability on slow mechs imo. Maybe defending, but not attacking.

[Gyrok]

DovisKhan, on 22 February 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

That is the point, Clans can choose to run either too hot but carry 2x the weapons or run completely heat efficient if carrying the same armament as IS

^Clans can choose in which way they are better



I happen to own both catapult and mad dog, heh, there is not a snowballs chance in hell a stock catapult A1 would beat any mdd modification, it literally doesn't have enough ammo to drop an mdd, so even if the mdd ust ran around while the catapult unloaded all it has, it would survive and then could humiliate it by scoring with a single small laser or whatever


On a side note - lrms are not bad at all, I don't get this reputation, my cbill farmer is a quad lrm15 king crab, consistent 800+ damage pretty much every game (even when losing) and lots of component destructions/kill most damage dealt

Clans can either run much hotter than IS with more weapons, or they can run similar weapons for less heat efficiency.

Clans are free to choose how they are worse.

[sycocys]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 February 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Well, yeah, i don't really like running SRMs on assaults, so i run that with 2xUAC10 + 2xERML + TC5, and still get 7 tons of ammo, which is more than enough for 2 UAC10s (1400 dmg potential).

I wouldn't personally bring a Warhawk to CW anyway, low mounts are too much of a liability on slow mechs imo. Maybe defending, but not attacking.

The Warhawk isn't substantially slower than a heavy. Not enough to be any sort of factor in CW unless you are pugging. And has more than enough Arm armor/structure to suck up gate pushes for everyone else. I won't put lasers on it because even 2 jack up it heat efficiency to a point that you can't have full DPS through multiple kills.

[Lily from animove]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 February 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

Yes, mechs with locked gear. The decent warhawk quirks? Are all for Ballistic weapons and Ballisitic hardpoint arms, and thats because the 'Hawk is running with 10 tons of fixed DHS it doesnt need for ballistic builds.

As far as i know, the ONLY clan mech with both decent quirks AND the tonnage to run a decent TC is the Warhawk.

Anyone complaining about OP Warhawks?

yeah thats how peoples perceptions work, they comapre the dead mechs with quirks vs the metamechs with quirks and say : but he got them too. Thats not even a close comparison at all. Especially when they leave out 50% of the truth behind it. I gues PGI has similar smart people doing the balanc,e that woudl at least explain those nonsense balance quirks.

But lets be honest Widow, we say this since, well ages, didn't changed, won't ever change.

nehebkau, on 22 February 2016 - 06:30 AM, said:

TRUTH

I was in a CW drop with a bunch of pugs, well it was a 4-man, a 2-man and 6 pugs. We were against a bunch of pugs on the clan side. We got smoked, and people in the game were crying about how over-powered clan mechs were now.

TRUTH
It wasn't the clan mechs, it was our players. They were horrible! Horrible in the extreme. Only 2 of us managed to break 1000 and I was 800 damage above that other 1000-mark player (we had 3 players who did ~200 damage). It wasn't that the other team was any good -- they were pretty bad as demonstrated by my damage. They had bad positioning, bad trades and no strategy -- but my team was worse! Now the worst part was that the players on my team didn't even realize how horrible players they were -- all were sportin' those lovely vanity unit tags that automatically mean they know what they are doing.

Conclusion:
Unless you routinely switch between clan in CW and IS in CW -- you know very little about overall balance of clan and IS mechs. Maybe you have an idea of how meta stacks up, but meta is not the entire game.

blame their moms who probably educated them in the "you are the best" "you are special" motivational fashion. Because this leads to people not trying to get better because they obviously dont do anythign wrong because the best can't be imporved.

[CDLord HHGD]

I was running my Riflemans this weekend and with the exception of one or two matches, I saw plenty of diversity.

1:1 the Clan mechs should be superior to the Inner Sphere.

If people are saying the Clan mechs are OP now, good. Now it's up to PGI to balance the numbers.

10:12 is ideal, but untested in MWO.
Another idea is to add "ghost weight" to clan mechs, make them +5 tons heavier on the backend code.

Both are untested in MWO and thusly the results are unknown. I do believe they are at least worth the test.