5 replies to this topic

[Ritual Hammer]

Oh, MGs. Cool. Damage isn't great but I bet they have an amazing range. Even longer than the AC/2s as they are the smallest projectile

... huh? No?

MGs range is not half of the hulking AC/20?

... Okay.

That seems to totally break the pattern of size to range but I'm sure they have some redeeming quality.

Right?

Crits. Crits! Awesome!

I can use these bad boys to destroy enemy equipment before I punch through their armor!

How strategic!

What? No?

I have to shred the armor first to destroy equipment? But... But... the armor is shredded? Any weapon can do that now. Why do I need to worry about the equipment in a section I just took the trouble of shredding so I could blow it off entirely!? That arm is gone in 3 seconds! It's near useless! Why is the MG only useful when used against the nearly useless?

I realize half a ton is barely anything when considering the mass of the monsters that equip them but I'm going to close my eyes and imagine an actual ONE THOUSAND POUND MACHINE GUN sitting next to me.

Anti-material?

Yeah.

Effective range?

120 meters.

Really? Did we for get how to coat bullets in teflon in the 31st century? Give them a hardened core?

This weapon annoys me.

/rant

[Koniving]

Austiclyse, on 21 February 2016 - 01:29 PM, said:

Oh, MGs. Cool. Damage isn't great but I bet they have an amazing range. Even longer than the AC/2s as they are the smallest projectile

This is actually an interesting topic so I'll be happy to explain it.

MGs according to 1980s Battletech has a marginally accurate range in excess of 1,000 meters (provided the mech is not bouncing around), but even then the MGs of BT are between 12.5mm and 20mm. It is actually a 20mm weapon similar to this, minus the radar.


In fact, Anti-Missile Systems, aka AMS, are literally stated to be a turreted 12.5mm MG tied into the projectile warning system of the sensors and a different arrangement for how the ammo is stored (though BT tabletop just puts the ammo in the next crit slot). Basically a VADS with smaller bullets.

It's also great against alien dinosaurs!


But! Here's the kicker.
The MG in Battletech can only significantly damage military-grade armor of BAR (Battle Armor Rating) of 10 at "just under 90 meters." No penetration, no real damage. The weapon system is generally for use against infantry as well as "Battle Armor" aka armored suits, Elementals, IFVs, and military vehicles who BAR is usually between 4 and 7, where the MGs can damage at greater distances.

They exist to keep stuff like this off of you.


So you don't end up like this.


Now you fire it at a car, and you can shred it from around 2,000 meters away in BT lore; you're just gonna have a heck of a cone of fire. Keep it at about 1,000 meters and you should be able to stay very accurate.

MWO just put in a "cut off."

Meh.

More on it.


Now if you're wondering about ACs... they are absolutely nothing like the depiction in MWO.


Note that higher calibers require fewer shots to deliver rated damage, but lower calibers shoot faster. Either way an AC/5 of a high or a low is expected to deliver 5 damage in the same amount of time; the question is with how much spread, how much 'down time' between shots, and how costly are misses. Ratings are generally for 5 seconds.

As such the range of the AC/20 is not actually 270 meters. That is the accurate range in which you can hope to land as many as '100 bullets' in a single rating on a target, in one general area, over about 5 seconds, with factors like bullet drop and recoil. Actual Autocannon "possible" ranges are in excess of 3,000 meters, but the chances of even hitting anything moving beyond 1,000 meters was horribly unlikely, and hitting things like tanks, mechs, etc. is pretty doggone slim. After all in BT tabletop, either you hit 100% or you don't hit, since BT TT is a summary of events not a real time simulation. (Glancing/direct blow rules do help, but they still fail to take the 30+ AC/20 variants into account, or the 60+ variants of medium laser of which over 44 are unique from each other).

Has this helped? I know it does nothing for MWO, but it may help you with the "What the..." of the source material.

[Ritual Hammer]

Sir, let me start off by saying you are a master of forums. Your Search-fu is legend. Thank you. It sounds like to me that MGs aren't even intended to be use against other mechs at all. More for battle tech lore than MW:O. It leaves me only confused on why they bothered to include it in the game then.

[Koniving]

Austiclyse, on 21 February 2016 - 07:50 PM, said:

Sir, let me start off by saying you are a master of forums. Your Search-fu is legend. Thank you. It sounds like to me that MGs aren't even intended to be use against other mechs at all. More for battle tech lore than MW:O. It leaves me only confused on why they bothered to include it in the game then.

First off, thank you. More on that at the end. Second I've been collecting the source material and comparing it to tabletop and MWO and trying to conjure up "What a Battletech Simulation" would be like. So I've had much of this already.

PGI has stated as much. Stock builds mainly. There's also the things that they want to be able to do with them. They like the idea of infantry swarms and elementals and the like... but how to implement it? Would it be a consumable, or faction warfare thing? How would they decide their targets? Their pathing AI? Would they act as a group or individually? Etc.

In Battletech, it is pretty effective. Then again instead of 608 stock armor, an Atlas has 304. A Locust with 128 stock, is actually holding 64 stock, and it continues on. There's also that in MWO, you only get crits after removing armor. You bring an MG up close and personal, and you're getting through armor crits (provided you are playing with this rule). The following is not a good example of through armor crits, but it gives an idea of what they can do.

Weapons fire for Locust LCT-1V (Koniving)
	Machine Gun at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs 3, rolls 7 :  - Direct Blow - hits  (using Rear table) RTR
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 3 damage to RTR.
			7 Armor remaining.
	Machine Gun at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs 2, rolls 8 :  - Direct Blow - hits  (using Rear table) LL
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 4 damage to LL.
			20 Armor remaining.
	Medium Laser at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs 0, rolls 7 :  - Direct Blow - hits  (using Rear table) LA
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 6 damage to LA.
			6 Armor remaining.
---
Weapons fire for Locust LCT-1V #2 (Koniving)
	Machine Gun at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs 4, rolls 10 :  - Direct Blow - hits  RT
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 4 damage to RT.
			11 Armor remaining.
	Medium Laser at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs 4, rolls 5 : hits  RA
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 6 damage to RA.
			17 Armor remaining.
---
Atlas AS8-D (PTC) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (20+ damage).
The base target is 6 [4 (Base piloting skill) + 2 (Sprinting)].
	Roll #1, (4 (Base piloting skill) + 2 (Sprinting) + 1 (20+ damage) - 2 (weight class modifier)); needs 5, rolls 4 : falls.
	Atlas AS8-D (PTC) falls on its left side, suffering 10 damage.
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 5 damage to RT.
			6 Armor remaining.
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 5 damage to RT.
			1 Armor remaining.
Pilot of Atlas AS8-D (PTC) "Lily Davenport" must roll 5 to avoid damage; rolls 3 : fails.
		Pilot of Atlas AS8-D (PTC) "Lily Davenport" takes 1 damage.		
Pilot of Atlas AS8-D (PTC) "Lily Davenport" needs a 3 to stay conscious.  Rolls 6 : successful!
(Next ten)
Physical Attack Phase
-------------------
Physical attacks for Locust LCT-1V #2 (Koniving)
	Kick (Left leg) at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs -1, rolls 5 :  - Direct Blow - hits (using Right Side table) RT
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 5 damage to RT.
			Armor destroyed, 17 Internal Structure remaining
			Critical hit on RT. Roll is (8+1) = 9; 1 location.
			CRITICAL HIT on Rotary AC/5 Ammo (20).
			*** Rotary AC/5 Ammo EXPLODES!  100 DAMAGE! ***
				Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 100 damage to RT.
					 SECTION DESTROYED,
		LIMB BLOWN OFF Right Arm blown off.
					remaining 83 damage prevented by CASE.
					Critical hit on RT.		 Roll is (7+4) = 11;		 2 locations.
					CRITICAL HIT on Rotary AC/5 Ammo (11).
					*** Rotary AC/5 Ammo EXPLODES!  55 DAMAGE! ***
						Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 55 damage to RT.
							remaining 55 damage prevented by CASE.
				Pilot of Atlas AS8-D (PTC) "Lily Davenport" takes 2 damage.				
Pilot of Atlas AS8-D (PTC) "Lily Davenport" needs a 5 to stay conscious.  Rolls 5 : successful!
				
Pilot of Atlas AS8-D (PTC) "Lily Davenport" needs a 7 to stay conscious.  Rolls 5 : blacks out.
					Location has no more hittable critical slots.
		Pilot of Atlas AS8-D (PTC) "Lily Davenport" takes 2 damage.
__________________________
Heat Phase
-------------------
Locust LCT-1V (Koniving) gains 4 heat, sinks 4 heat and is now at 0 heat.
Atlas AS8-D (PTC) gains 3 heat, sinks 10 heat and is now at 0 heat.
Locust LCT-1V #2 (Koniving) gains 4 heat, sinks 4 heat and is now at 0 heat.
(Next ten seconds)
Weapon Attack Phase
-------------------
Weapons fire for Locust LCT-1V (Koniving)
	Machine Gun at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs 3, rolls 6 :  - Direct Blow - hits  (using Left Side table) HD (hit aimed location)
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 3 damage to HD.
			6 Armor remaining.
		Pilot of Atlas AS8-D (PTC) "Lily Davenport" takes 1 damage.*** Atlas AS8-D (PTC) DESTROYED by pilot death! ***

	Machine Gun at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs 2, rolls 9 :  - Direct Blow - hits  (using Left Side table) LA
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 4 damage to LA.
			2 Armor remaining.

	Medium Laser at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs 2, rolls 9 :  - Direct Blow - hits  (using Left Side table) LL
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 8 damage to LL.
			12 Armor remaining.

Weapons fire for Locust LCT-1V #2 (Koniving)
	Machine Gun at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs 5, rolls 9 :  - Direct Blow - hits  (using Right Side table) CT
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 3 damage to CT.
			29 Armor remaining.

	Medium Laser at Atlas AS8-D (PTC); needs 5, rolls 11 :  - Direct Blow - hits  (using Right Side table) HD (hit aimed location)
		Atlas AS8-D (PTC) takes 8 damage to HD.
			Armor destroyed, 1 Internal Structure remaining
			Critical hit on HD. Roll is (8+3) = 11; 2 locations.
			CRITICAL HIT on Standard Cockpit.
			CRITICAL HIT on Sensors.
		Pilot of Atlas AS8-D (PTC) "Lily Davenport" is already dead, so no damage is dealt!

MGs here didn't get any through armor crits, but spraying the cockpit injured the pilot. even though there wasn't genuine penetration. Lasers got a few through armor crits, though. As did stomping the fallen Atlas.
Lots of MG and laser fire, however, caused the mech to fall over and gain an extra ten damage. These aren't "soft" things like MWO depicts.

I mean, here's what an LBX and a small laser can do to battle armor.



This said, in numbers of 3 or more, OR when supplementing other short range weapons the MGs are actually quite devastating as a secondary weapon. Especially when your opponents are 'twisters'. For example some time ago 2 MGs and 2 flamers (the old ones not the current ones) were paired with twin LBXs, a close range blow could peg someone like an AC/20 and once the armor is stripped, the MGs have frequently made lightning fast work of enemy AC/20s. (These days better the MGs, LBXs and SPLs). But now 6 MGs?

Well six MGs...


The evolution of this build with 2 MGs, 2 LBx and 4 flamers...

has become this.
Three AC/2s, one LBX OR AC/10 depending on whether casual or group play, and twin MGs.


This was a surprisingly successful joke build I had ages ago; it traded flamers for a large pulse laser and a tag.


The wife would like you all to know: "My husband likes to spend all his time on here geeking out." I think it's a compliment. Right? She knows I love her.

[Koniving]

I should note MGs are freaking dangerous to carry around, too. This is from a tank hitting a Locust's MG ammo stash.

Spoiler

Weapon Attack Phase
-------------------
Weapons fire for Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard) (TAAANK!)
	Large Laser at Locust LCT-1V #6 (Koniving); needs 0, rolls 8 :  - Direct Blow - hits  (using Left Side table) CTR
		Locust LCT-1V #6 (Koniving) takes 11 damage to CTR.
			Armor destroyed.
			 SECTION DESTROYED.
		Locust LCT-1V #6 (Koniving) has taken 6 engine hits this phase.
		Checking for engine explosion on 10, roll is 6.
		Engine safety systems remain in place.
*** Locust LCT-1V #6 (Koniving) DESTROYED by damage! ***
		>Locust LCT-1V #6 (Koniving) suffers catastrophic damage, but the autoeject system was engaged.
	
Locust LCT-1V #6 (Koniving) must make a piloting skill check (landing in clear terrain).
	Needs 12 [5 (ejecting) + 5 (Mech is prone) + 3 (pilot unconscious) + 1 (automatic ejection) - 2 (landing in clear terrain)], rolls 10 : fails.
		Pilot of MechWarrior Yanni Diamantopoulos (Koniving) "Yanni Diamantopoulos" takes 1 damage.			The pilot ejects safely!
			Critical hit on CT. Roll is (9+4) = 13; 3 locations.
			CRITICAL HIT on Machine Gun Ammo (200).
			*** Machine Gun Ammo EXPLODES!  400 DAMAGE! ***
				Locust LCT-1V #6 (Koniving) takes 400 damage to CT.

[i][b]				Ammo explosion damages nearby units.[/b][/i]
				[b]Start Secondary Damage Report[/b].
				Locust LCT-1V #2 (Koniving) is hit for 20 damage!
				Locust LCT-1V #2 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LA.
					Armor destroyed.
					 2 Internal Structure remaining.
					Critical hit on LA.		 Roll is 8;		 no effect.
				Locust LCT-1V #2 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LA.
					 SECTION DESTROYED.
				3 damage transfers to LT.
					Critical hit on LA.		 Roll is 7;		 no effect.
				Locust LCT-1V #2 (Koniving) takes 3 damage to LT.
					5 Armor remaining.
				Locust LCT-1V #2 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to LL.
					3 Armor remaining.
				Locust LCT-1V #2 (Koniving) takes 5 damage to RA.
					Armor destroyed.
					 2 Internal Structure remaining.
					Critical hit on RA.		 Roll is 8;		 no effect.
				Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard) (TAAANK!) is hit for 20 damage!
				Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard) (TAAANK!) takes 5 damage to LS.
					15 Armor remaining.
					Chance for motive system damage.		 Roll is 10;		 (w/ +0 bonus)
					 Heavy damage, +3 to driving skill rolls, 1/2 MP.
				Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard) (TAAANK!) takes 5 damage to LS.
					10 Armor remaining.
				Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard) (TAAANK!) takes 5 damage to LS.
					5 Armor remaining.
				Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard) (TAAANK!) takes 5 damage to TU (critical).
					15 Armor remaining.
					Critical hit on TU.		 Roll is 5;		 no effect.
				SRM Foot Infantry Taurian Citizens' Militia (TAAANK!) is hit for 20 damage!
				Infantry is hit by area-effect artillery!!! Damage doubled.
				Infantry platoon caught in the open!!!  Damage doubled.
				SRM Foot Infantry Taurian Citizens' Militia (TAAANK!) takes 20 damage to MEN.
					10 men alive
				Infantry is hit by area-effect artillery!!! Damage doubled.
				Infantry platoon caught in the open!!!  Damage doubled.
				SRM Foot Infantry Taurian Citizens' Militia (TAAANK!) takes 20 damage to MEN.
					 PLATOON KILLED,
		*** SRM Foot Infantry Taurian Citizens' Militia (TAAANK!) DESTROYED by damage! ***
				Infantry is hit by area-effect artillery!!! Damage doubled.
				SRM Foot Infantry Taurian Citizens' Militia (TAAANK!) takes 10 damage to MEN.
				Infantry is hit by area-effect artillery!!! Damage doubled.
				SRM Foot Infantry Taurian Citizens' Militia (TAAANK!) takes 10 damage to MEN.
				Firestarter FS9-H (Bugsy) is hit for 20 damage!
				Firestarter FS9-H (Bugsy) takes 5 damage to LL.
					3 Armor remaining.
				Firestarter FS9-H (Bugsy) takes 5 damage to LA.
					 1 Internal Structure remaining.
					Critical hit on LA.		 Roll is 9;		 1 location.
					CRITICAL HIT on Upper Arm.
				Firestarter FS9-H (Bugsy) takes 5 damage to LA.
					 SECTION DESTROYED.
				4 damage transfers to LT.
					Critical hit on LA.		 Roll is 7;		 no effect.
				Firestarter FS9-H (Bugsy) takes 4 damage to LT.
					7 Armor remaining.
				Firestarter FS9-H (Bugsy) takes 5 damage to CT.
					0 Armor remaining.

				End Secondary Damage Report.
		Pilot of Locust LCT-1V #6 (Koniving) "Yanni Diamantopoulos" has ejected, so no damage is dealt!
			Location has no more hittable critical slots.

120 'splash' damage from the ammo explosion that delivered 400 damage to the CT of the Locust whose ammo stores were hit. Boom.

[Rushin Roulette]

MGS are good on small mechs such as lights. Which have limited weapon capacities. They dont have the luxury of being able to decide betwwen an AC20 or an MG, so they go for MGs instead and rely on the crit chances to take out vital weapon systems faster once the armour has been removed from a specific section.

On a side note. WHAT the heck is that dino trying to do with the poor mech? Is that how the Dinobots from the Transformer Francise came to be?