146 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Armorine, on 26 February 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

havent heard anything in this thread that convinces me this is a good idea. everything ive read tells me its a bad idea. xls are a trade. more weapons, armor, speed for increased vulnerability. clans get a better xl yes. but they also dont have the options of complete customization. this will just open a balance can of worms we arnt prepared to deal with. more then that this is a step too far from lore.

Clam Battlemechs throws that argument out the window.

They have full customization, and would they ever choose the STD?

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 25 February 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

and what im saying is clan standard structure needs an even bigger incentive. because clan endo is even better and theres even less reason to use clan standard structure.



Youd have to be a re tard to ever use std structure on a kodiak.

its only 7 crit slots for 5 extra tons from endo which you can use to jack up its engine rating since the kodiak will have no engine cap. 5 tons buys you a whole lotta XL engine.

kodiak will always have endo. and probably even use ferro a lot of the time too. with endo and ferro its basically like a 108-109 ton mech.

thats my whole point... clan standard structure needs some huge incentives over clan endo. just so the direwolf wont look so bad for being stuck with standard structure while the kodiak rocks endo.

Thats not 100% true. Mostly true, yeah, but there are builds which dont want endo, in favour of stupid large numbers of heatsinks. You can run 2xLPL + 6xERML, XL400 and 31 DHS, and you're left with only 3 slots, with no endo or ferro. If you use Endo you are capped at 29 DHS, without being able to further increase your alpha.

You could argue that it would be far better to run something else, and youd probably be right. But that is definitely a viable build, and if you want to go 100% energy vomit like that you might not want ES or FF.

[Armorine]

and most of the clam battlemechs arnt much better then their IS counterparts and thats with an cXL. my highlander IIC crys everytime it sees its older brother and his maneuverability.....i wont turn this into a highlander thread i promise!

[LordNothing]

i always put standards in everything.

back when i was fairly new i put in a lot of xls, i am literally stitting on about a dozen of them, most at 1 ton intervals. i used to die very early. now i kick but till my last bit of ct structure is gone. i love me some zombie action.

also im trying to get liquid metal

Edited by LordNothing, 26 February 2016 - 10:10 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Armorine, on 26 February 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

and most of the clam battlemechs arnt much better then their IS counterparts and thats with an cXL. my highlander IIC crys everytime it sees its older brother and his maneuverability.....i wont turn this into a highlander thread i promise!

Which is an extremely short sighted perspective. PGI are clearly not stopping at just those four, since the Kodiak is also a clan battlemech, and one that will be a LOT better than the Highlander-IIC for geometry, hardpoint and engine cap reasons.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 February 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Gyrok]

Khobai, on 25 February 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

except PGI is trying 1:1 balance. for 1:1 balance to work you need CXL and ISXL to be the same.

LFE only makes sense if IS and clans arnt 1:1 balanced. Since LFE is a worse version of CXL. LFE just doesnt make sense the way MWO is setup at present.

Because LFE admits IS tech is inferior to Clan tech. And 1:1 balance contradicts that notion.



XL penalties should be dropped anyway. Because omnimechs shouldnt be penalized for not being able to choose a different engine.

XL engines are supposed to be an upgrade over STD engines. The only reason its not is because MWO has aiming and convergence instead of random hit locations. Even 100 ton assaults like the devastator rock XL engines in tabletop. And theyre not afraid of doing it because of random hit locations.

STD engines are like single heatsinks... theyre an outdated technology. The only real way to make the STD appealing compared to CXL would be to add engine crits to the game. When CXL loses 4 slots the engine is destroyed; while the STD engine would have to lose 6 slots.

LFE + Single Crit Doubles for 1.5 tons (CHS) = IS equal to clans pretty much...would allow you to run ES/FF on basically every mech.

[Widowmaker1981]

Gyrok, on 26 February 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

LFE + Single Crit Doubles for 1.5 tons (CHS) = IS equal to clans pretty much...would allow you to run ES/FF on basically every mech.

Thats insanely wrong. There is no way that 'basically every mech' could run IS ES+FF, ever. With an XL, Endo and Ferro an IS mech is left with 13 slots for equipment.13. (assuming it has lower arms and hands). 2UAC5s is 10 slots, leaving not enough space for ammo, so thats most mechs that use ballistics out straight away... ludicrous claim. IS FF will always be extremely niche on heavier mechs.

edit: ok with a LFE its 15 slots. Still nowhere near enough for the vast majority of builds.

another edit: and 1.5 ton single crit heatsinks would also be an iffy proposition as to whether you waste more tonnage on doing that than you gain from ferro

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 February 2016 - 10:23 AM.

[Lozruet Gravemind]

BigBenn, on 26 February 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

I think the IS mechs should NOT explode, but rather have an effect similar to Clan mechs when their engines get hit, but on a larger scale. Say..... like a 50% loss in speed.

I agree though, the insta-death of the ST XL engine hit is a bit much.

Oh... and REMOVE THE CHARGE UP ON THE GAUSS!!!

The explosion is a hold over from TT. As much of a Lorewarrior as I am Ill agree make it a reduction same as CXL but with a more severe penalty, 25-30%. Also the Charge Time is there as a balance, you remove it and Gauss becomes unchallenged king of long range fire fights.

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

Clam Battlemechs throws that argument out the window.

They have full customization, and would they ever choose the STD?

No they wouldnt, but I also cant agree to making it ISXL=CXL. Keep the current penalty and make it where the IS penalty is just a bit more than the Clan one, 25-30%.

Edited by Lozruet Gravemind, 26 February 2016 - 10:28 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Armorine, on 26 February 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

and most of the clam battlemechs arnt much better then their IS counterparts and thats with an cXL. my highlander IIC crys everytime it sees its older brother and his maneuverability.....i wont turn this into a highlander thread i promise!

Quirks


Exclusively Quirks, which is a piss poor way to balance factions, I might add.

[Lugh]

Wrathful Scythe, on 25 February 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Thing is: If you let IS survive the STloss, you would need to buff clanmechs significantly, which would open a whole new bag of problems, because omnis can't switch to std engines.

I'm not against something like that but some IS machines would be really terrifying if IS could survive the st-loss. Even if it comes with a price like being slower.

Many IS machines ARE truly terrifying even with the instant death in place.

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

Clam Battlemechs throws that argument out the window.

They have full customization, and would they ever choose the STD?

IN some cases yes I would. IE a Two PPC TBR. Really don't need much beyond that. and a STD would sure allow more shooting time.

[Y E O N N E]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 February 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Thats insanely wrong. There is no way that 'basically every mech' could run IS ES+FF, ever. With an XL, Endo and Ferro an IS mech is left with 13 slots for equipment.13. (assuming it has lower arms and hands). 2UAC5s is 10 slots, leaving not enough space for ammo, so thats most mechs that use ballistics out straight away... ludicrous claim. IS FF will always be extremely niche on heavier mechs.

edit: ok with a LFE its 15 slots. Still nowhere near enough for the vast majority of builds.

another edit: and 1.5 ton single crit heatsinks would also be an iffy proposition as to whether you waste more tonnage on doing that than you gain from ferro

You actually get 15 slots with XL+Endo+Ferro, 17 if you don't have lower arm actuators. With LFE, that's 17 and 19 slots, respectively.

But I digress, that is an insanely low number to work with. And, CHS weighing 1.5 tons is an insane penalty when a puny 270 m MedLas takes up a whole ton and to get more range you have to spend at least five times that.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Armorine, on 26 February 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

and most of the clam battlemechs arnt much better then their IS counterparts and thats with an cXL. my highlander IIC crys everytime it sees its older brother and his maneuverability.....i wont turn this into a highlander thread i promise!

The only reason the IIC mechs aren't the cream of the Clan crop is that they're based on IS designs. They get IS hitboxes without the benefit of IS quirks.

Lugh, on 26 February 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

IN some cases yes I would. IE a Two PPC TBR. Really don't need much beyond that. and a STD would sure allow more shooting time.

I'm sorry, what?

You're going to have to explain that one to me. In what universe is 2 PPCs an adequate armament for a gods damned Timber Wolf?

Even then, how would a Standard engine help your build in any way? A TBR with 2 PPCs and an XL375 can fit 27 heat sinks, a TC1, a CAP, and 3 backup ERSLs and still have almost max armor.

With a Standard engine, the best you can hope for (calculated with an Orion IIC) is a STD 320 with 27 heat sinks, half a ton less armor, and either a TC1 or CAP. Same cooling, but much slower. In fact, barely faster than a TBR missing its side torso. Plus, you don't get the short range punch of the backup lasers.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 February 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

You actually get 15 slots with XL+Endo+Ferro, 17 if you don't have lower arm actuators. With LFE, that's 17 and 19 slots, respectively.

But I digress, that is an insanely low number to work with. And, CHS weighing 1.5 tons is an insane penalty when a puny 270 m MedLas takes up a whole ton and to get more range you have to spend at least five times that.

Not if you make them worth 1.5 doubles at 2.0 each.

Then, they become an interesting alternative...of course...clans would require an un-nerfing of DHS at that point...but I digress.

[Rampancy]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 February 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

Thats not 100% true. Mostly true, yeah, but there are builds which dont want endo, in favour of stupid large numbers of heatsinks. You can run 2xLPL + 6xERML, XL400 and 31 DHS, and you're left with only 3 slots, with no endo or ferro. If you use Endo you are capped at 29 DHS, without being able to further increase your alpha.

You could argue that it would be far better to run something else, and youd probably be right. But that is definitely a viable build, and if you want to go 100% energy vomit like that you might not want ES or FF.

That's... actually pretty scary. 68-damage alpha for 56 heat, with a heat capacity of 90.24, dissappating 5.92 heat per second. Running 69.7 kph with 100-tonner armor. Dang. Knuckle-dragger, yeah, but that's pretty terrifying. Can pop off an easy 2 alphas, plus a third if you pause a couple seconds after the first one. Only takes 10 seconds to bleed off 100% of the heat from an alpha.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 26 February 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Not if you make them worth 1.5 doubles at 2.0 each.

Then, they become an interesting alternative...of course...clans would require an un-nerfing of DHS at that point...but I digress.

You would have to give them 1.5x cap and 0.21 dissipation per unit to be worth considering even slightly, but that doesn't guarantee successful balance, either, because with just Endo and an XL/LFE it's entirely possible that I can get sufficient DHS in that there is no benefit to adding Ferro and CHS.

Because we've consumed so many damn slots with Ferro and Endo and XL/LFE, you can't really capitalize on it in terms of extra weapons. You'll have room to put the guns, as long as they are all Medium or Large lasers, but you won't have the room to put in sufficient cooling and those 'Mechs that can't bring a giant engine with lots of internal sinks will be super-screwed with CHS and both Endo+Ferro (i.e. Locust).

So, really, the addition of CHS is a wash because it doesn't add anything. It fails to enable any new builds without extra tonnage being available in conjunction with slots and Clans can still bring more heat-sinks, period, for a given quantity and quality of firepower. That part hasn't changed. It still takes ~1.5x the weight in isML to reach parity with cERML in damage alone, or ~ 3.75x the weight in isLL to meet or beat both the damage and range. Equipment should behave accordingly. At best, you can argue that Clans should have some of those fixed structure/armor slots unlocked (that they were locked is beyond asinine, there's no reason for that).

The Clan DHS nerf is so pathetically small that they oughtn't have bothered in the first place.It also wasn't really a nerf, more of a flavor change, since it provided better dissipation, too.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 26 February 2016 - 03:45 PM.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 February 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

You would have to give them 1.5x cap and 0.21 dissipation per unit to be worth considering even slightly, but that doesn't guarantee successful balance, either, because with just Endo and an XL/LFE it's entirely possible that I can get sufficient DHS in that there is no benefit to adding Ferro and CHS.

Assuming they do, you now get what would have been 3 IS DHS at 9 crit slots and 3 tons, for 2 crit slots and 3 tons.

Additionally, supposing you put 5 of these into an engine...you are now getting 7.5 DHS in cooling for 7.5 tons and occupying no slots.

Quote

Because we've consumed so many damn slots with Ferro and Endo and XL/LFE, you can't really capitalize on it in terms of extra weapons. You'll have room to put the guns, as long as they are all Medium or Large lasers, but you won't have the room to put in sufficient cooling and those 'Mechs that can't bring a giant engine with lots of internal sinks will be super-screwed with CHS and both Endo+Ferro (i.e. Locust).

That was my point with the comments above...consider how much less space you would need with CHS. 2 crits 3 tons, 3 IS DHS versus 9 crits 3 tons.

You are talking about a significant reduction in gear footprint there.

Quote

So, really, the addition of CHS is a wash because it doesn't add anything. It fails to enable any new builds without extra tonnage being available in conjunction with slots and Clans can still bring more heat-sinks, period, for a given quantity and quality of firepower. That part hasn't changed. It still takes ~1.5x the weight in isML to reach parity with cERML in damage alone, or ~ 3.75x the weight in isLL to meet or beat both the damage and range. Equipment should behave accordingly. At best, you can argue that Clans should have some of those fixed structure/armor slots unlocked (that they were locked is beyond asinine, there's no reason for that).

The Clan DHS nerf is so pathetically small that they oughtn't have bothered in the first place.It also wasn't really a nerf, more of a flavor change, since it provided better dissipation, too.

As proposed...you would seriously open up the possibilities for new builds. Consider some of the builds that are slot locked currently. Such as the ERLL 3H Stalker that needs every last crit. Suppose you could run endo and pick up the equivalent cooling of ~4-5 more DHS?

I am sure that is not the only build benefitting at all either. There are lots of builds for mechs that consume more crits than anything with DHS. That could be prevented tremendously with such an option as CHS.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 26 February 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

Assuming they do, you now get what would have been 3 IS DHS at 9 crit slots and 3 tons, for 2 crit slots and 3 tons.

Additionally, supposing you put 5 of these into an engine...you are now getting 7.5 DHS in cooling for 7.5 tons and occupying no slots.

Anything that can mount an engine that large doesn't have a problem with slot-locked builds.

Quote

That was my point with the comments above...consider how much less space you would need with CHS. 2 crits 3 tons, 3 IS DHS versus 9 crits 3 tons.

You are talking about a significant reduction in gear footprint there.



As proposed...you would seriously open up the possibilities for new builds. Consider some of the builds that are slot locked currently. Such as the ERLL 3H Stalker that needs every last crit. Suppose you could run endo and pick up the equivalent cooling of ~4-5 more DHS?

I am sure that is not the only build benefitting at all either. There are lots of builds for mechs that consume more crits than anything with DHS. That could be prevented tremendously with such an option as CHS.

What you have to understand is that slot-locked builds are slot-locked because they are tonnage starved and/or suffer from PGI's arbitrarily imposed engine deficiencies. My Locusts are slot-locked, because I have to run Endo and Ferro to get the tonnage needed for the firepower. If I throw on CHS, I am now instead having to spend my tonnage savings on carrying the mandatory 10 sinks; I'm now spending 4.5 tons for the externals instead of 3, and I've gained nothing substantial. Stalker? I only have enough tonnage for 10 extra heat-sinks with a STD300, 6xLL, and Endo. CHS aren't getting me anything here except seven hundredths of an extra point of heat dissipation per second, since I can only bring 7 for the same level of armor, pushable to 7. Neat, who cares about 7 hundredths? And for the 4x ERLL STK? It doesn't need more cooling, that thing is frosty as hell already, so again only the most diminished of returns. Instead, if I could bring a big XL like the Battlemaster, I could save more weight and the same heat-sinks with the same firepower while moving faster and being able to spread damage better with improved agility. I'd much rather have that than CHS.

I mean, FFS, it takes 30 tons of Large Laser to be able to compete with Clan laser poke in a quirkless playing field. Hell, even quirked, MedLas don't generally compete now that they are all stuck at 324 meters tops. If one of our goals is to reduce reliance on quirks for balance, and it should be, then CHS don't change that since I have to bring large lasers and I'm either burning up my tonnage savings on CHS or I'm burning up my slot savings on DHS. Right now, the DHS aren't a problem except on 'Mechs which have stupid engine caps or are really light and beholden to TT construction limitations.

So, CHS aren't solving anything. Clan tech is superior because it is both smaller and lighter while simultaneously having longer range and more damage. CHS merely trade size for weight, but the overall net value is identical because the whole point of having more slots is to bring bigger guns, which you can't do if you already used the weight.

You would, truly, have better effect on balance by dropping IS endo/Ferro to 7 slots than by introducing CHS. CHS make a trade. What the IS need is not a trade, they need a free improvement.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

TamCoan, on 26 February 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Honestly if they buffed is XL engines to clan levels, I would abuse that all day long. Currently the only limitation I feel with my IS heavies and assaults is the need to run standard engines on most of them for survivability. That limits my speed and weapon loadout as I have to spend tonnage on the STD weight. The only bonus clan has right now is the ability to hit me from a longer range. I can out sustain them, rarely overheat, have a lower burn time, better AC mechanics, more general durability via quirks. Throw in better xl engines into the mix? Game over!

The affect of buffing IS XL engines is larger than just the engine itself.

The fact that it's bigger than just the engine is the entire point.

The reason you're IS 'Mechs are competitive is because they have Quirk bandaids allow them to be more durable.

This change would remove the need for those Quirks and require their being stripped.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 February 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

I recognize the advantages to balance by making IS and Clan XL engines behave the same.

I do not want it.

There is a certain thrill to be had in trying to both protect that IS XL and still be threatening in combat.

But you don't really have to work that hard. Quirks pick up a lot of the slack and allow IS 'Mechs to take a lot more punishment than they really should.

Equality of durability is very important and this illustrates that we don't have that.

Yes, Clan doesn't die on XL ST loss, but they can take less punishment overall, as the most of them don't have those extra structure/armor points.

Those Quirks are detracting from the game by usurping a role they shouldn't have (balance) which prevents them from their right use (bringing out what's special/unique in a 'Mech).

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Armorine, on 26 February 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

havent heard anything in this thread that convinces me this is a good idea. everything ive read tells me its a bad idea. xls are a trade. more weapons, armor, speed for increased vulnerability. clans get a better xl yes. but they also dont have the options of complete customization. this will just open a balance can of worms we arnt prepared to deal with. more then that this is a step too far from lore.

Balance via arbitrary Quirks is the can of worms.

Making foundational balance through this change keeps the worms canned up.

Lugh, on 26 February 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

Many IS machines ARE truly terrifying even with the instant death in place.

Only because of Quirks.