252 replies to this topic

[Timuroslav]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 26 February 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

Tanks are Master race rant

So that boulder in front of your tank. My Mech can climb that.
That Ammunition box and unstable munitions supply. My Mech can pick it up and move it without dragging it or pushing it.
That Tank Trap that you're stuck in. I can climb and jump over.
The handling of smaller objects and lifting them; your tank needs a crane for that.
Your tank needs a periscope needs to see 360Degrees, My mechs can just rotate and use a back up camera.

There's reason why the Nasa and the Military are trying to replace tread and wheel drones for walking ones. Those boulders 1/3 your size for one.

[Uzi Foo]

All this only comes down to one thing for me, how do I cancel my Kodiak pre order? RIP brawling.

Reminds me of 2 years ago. LRM OP, better nerf SRMs.

Edited by Uzi Foo, 01 March 2016 - 10:25 AM.

[SplashDown]

Random Carnage, on 26 February 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

I'm willing to bet right here and now that any new heat system will have nothing to do with logic. We'll be replacing one arbitrary system with another.

^^ this......and im sure it will be broken..and the forums will fill with tears soon afterwards.

[Lightfoot]

Everybody keeps calling Group-Fire an Alpha-Strike. It is not. Alpha-Strike is when you fire all the mech's weapons at once. This is rarely done in MWO.

I never alpha-strike at all. But I use group-fire of like weapons all the time. The reason is that Battlemechs carry so many weapons if you don't fire them in groups the first ones recycle before the last ones are fired, meaning there would be no reason to carry the weapons that are not used by the time the first weapons recycle, you would just never use them.

So I hope PGI realizes Group-Fire is the core function component of mech design. Otherwise we might as well just go play Quake, or World of Tanks, or CoD where the character can only fire one weapon at a time, can likely only carry one weapon at a time. I look at MWO's Gauss Rifle charge-up from a third person shooter and I think we will get Quake and not MechWarrior. We'll see.

MWO's real problem is the mechs are too weak to damage, not group-fire. Size of hit-boxes is more relevant than armor amounts in MWO's case, but since we are unlikely to get more complex hit-boxes the fix is armor and structure buffs of what we have now. MWO's mechs die like three times faster on average than previous MechWarrior games that supported dual Gauss, 2xUAC20, 3 and 4xERPPCs with no problem. Heck those games even had mech knockdown and the mechs survived just fine!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lightfoot, on 01 March 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

MWO's mechs die like three times faster on average than previous MechWarrior games that supported dual Gauss, 2xUAC20, 3 and 4xERPPCs with no problem. Heck those games even had mech knockdown and the mechs survived just fine!

That's a bit of an exaggeration, MWO mechs have more armor than they did in MW4, and there are a few mechanical differences with regards to how a mech is killed and damage is transferred. If anything, standard engine mechs like the Stalker survive longer here than they would with MW4 mechanics, but IS XL mechs suffer quite a bit with MWO rules as opposed to MW4 (CT and legs are the most efficient).

For reference:
MW4

• There were no side torso deaths.
  
• Damage was transferred at a rate of 100% for Endo, and 50% for Standard.
  
• Damage transferred only dealt damage to internals.

MWO

• IS XLs die when one side torso or CT is destroyed, Clan XLs die when both side torsos or CT is destroyed.
  
• Damage transfers at a lower rate than Standard internals from MW4 (McGral has the actual number, I dont remember the exact amount).
  
• Damage transferred deals damage to armor, and then internals.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 March 2016 - 10:51 AM.

[Sandpit]

Lightfoot, on 01 March 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

. This is rarely done in MWO.

You're severely uninformed then. That's the most common way of firing weapons in MWO

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 01 March 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

You're severely uninformed then. That's the most common way of firing weapons in MWO

Depends on the mech, range, and engagement style. A Black Knight and even the old meta-Whale didn't always alpha-strike, once a mech gets heat capped you may need to fire off some weapons without shutting down to get a mech down, which means you aren't alpha striking.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 March 2016 - 11:01 AM.

[adamts01]

I'm excited to see what they do, it's been too long. Now all we'll need is a good game mode, we'll see how their new creation plays out.

[Jetfire]

Is is a real heat scale penalty system?!?!?! Can it be true?

[Jetfire]

Sandpit, on 01 March 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

You're severely uninformed then. That's the most common way of firing weapons in MWO

It could definitely be the most common... it's even done when it is the least productive possible method of discharging weapons. I have seen Atlai Alphaing SRM's, AC20's and ERLL's at 1000 m.

[Sandpit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 March 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

Depends on the mech, range, and engagement style.

You're absolutely right

And the most commonly used mechs, ranges, builds, and engagement styles are built around alpha striking and causing as much DPS as possible.

Which is actually what "meta" means here in MWO

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 01 March 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

And the most commonly used mechs, ranges, builds, and engagement styles are built around alpha striking and causing as much DPS as possible.

Alpha strike oriented builds are at odds with DPS oriented builds (you rarely have both in other words). This may be where people get confused. Mechs like the Quickdraw and Mauler aren't really alpha mechs (33 and 25 damage respectively, which is low), they are oriented towards pumping out DPS. Mechs like the Black Knight and super laser Timby (58 and 68 damage respectively) suffer in the DPS realm, I'd imagine worse or only slightly higher than the Quickdraw, but are meant to do short bursts of damage to punish or open holes on important targets quickly.

Or maybe you just meant to say burst damage instead of DPS.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 March 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[cazidin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 March 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

That's a bit of an exaggeration, MWO mechs have more armor than they did in MW4, and there are a few mechanical differences with regards to how a mech is killed and damage is transferred. If anything, standard engine mechs like the Stalker survive longer here than they would with MW4 mechanics, but IS XL mechs suffer quite a bit with MWO rules as opposed to MW4 (CT and legs are the most efficient).

For reference:
MW4

• There were no side torso deaths.
  
• Damage was transferred at a rate of 100% for Endo, and 50% for Standard.
  
• Damage transferred only dealt damage to internals.

MWO

• IS XLs die when one side torso or CT is destroyed, Clan XLs die when both side torsos or CT is destroyed.
  
• Damage transfers at a lower rate than Standard internals from MW4 (McGral has the actual number, I dont remember the exact amount).
  
• Damage transferred deals damage to armor, and then internals.

Just for clarity, in MW4 with Standard Structure your internals took 50% damage?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 01 March 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

Just for clarity, in MW4 with Standard Structure your internals took 50% damage?

Only when damage was transferred from other sections.

[Sandpit]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 March 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

Alpha strike oriented builds are at odds with DPS oriented builds (you rarely have both in other words). This may be where people get confused. Mechs like the Quickdraw and Mauler aren't really alpha mechs (33 and 25 damage respectively, which is low), they are oriented towards pumping out DPS. Mechs like the Black Knight and super laser Timby (58 and 68 damage respectively) suffer in the DPS realm, I'd imagine worse or only slightly higher than the Quickdraw, but are meant to do short bursts of damage to punish or open holes on important targets quickly.

Or maybe you just meant to say burst damage instead of DPS.

I don't get into the whole "legalistic definition" arguments on here anymore. There are so many misused terms and such (compared to what a word or term generally means outside this community).

Things like
meta

Meta here is nothing more than the min/max based on DPS (or burst, or alpha, or whatever word you'd like to use to describe it) according to the mech on paper and math.

that's it. nothing more

They're not the "best" because there is no "best".

I've spent almost my entire time in MWO listening to others tell me how "bad" my LL boats were for years. They were "bad" and I was "bad" obviously because I used them.

Meta is just the easiest path to obtain the most efficient damage out of a mech based on math. If you prefer that statement wording


Point is, any and all talk regarding "best" or "good" or "bad" or "competitive" is based entirely upon personal opinion. Not factual representation.

I don't represent my opinions as factual evidence. (at least not intentionally and rarely even in those cases).

A lot of players who talk "competitive" and "meta" do, however, try to represent their opinions as fact when it comes to builds, weapon systems, etc.

"Well they aren't used at the top tier"

yes they are, because I use every weapon system in the game except flamers, mgs, and small lasers.
I win just about as often as I lose
I'm in the upper tier rankings of this game.
I play against and with some of the top units and players in the game

I stand now, just like I did in regards to my LL boats, in direct and factual contradiction to sweeping blanket statements like that.


Again though, this is all getting way off topic.


Can we PLEASE talk about heat system and stop with all the "good" "bad" mechs and weapons and such discussion? There's plenty of threads for those discussions.

I'd like us to get back on track discussing what we'd like to see in a heat system, ideas on how to implement something like that, ideas on how to balance it, etc. instead of arguing in circles over opinions of what a "good" weapon or build is.

[TKSax]

Sandpit, on 01 March 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

I'd like us to get back on track discussing what we'd like to see in a heat system, ideas on how to implement something like that, ideas on how to balance it, etc. instead of arguing in circles over opinions of what a "good" weapon or build is.

But we are, understanding what builds and weapons are Optimal than others is vital to understand how to Balance the new heat system will effect the game. Not understanding that has gotten us to where we are know, from SRM's to PPC/Guass PPC/AC5 to Laser Vomit. In some ways we are close know, Srms are effective, Guass is effective . PPC's are effective on some mechs, LRM's are not really in a good place though, and Laser's are still too dominant. I don't want all weapons to be the same but it would be nice to be where all weapons (even lrms) are effective.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 01 March 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

Meta here is nothing more than the min/max based on DPS (or burst, or alpha, or whatever word you'd like to use to describe it)

I'm still not sure where you are getting this, it may be a factor in what is determined to be "meta", but not the sole determining factor.

Either way, DPS != burst damage != alpha damage, they measure damage dealt over different time periods, they are not interchangeable words like you seem to suggest or just ignore.



As for heat system, there was a simple suggestion on reddit about how to hinder high heat alphas more without rendering mechs with large amounts of energy hardpoints worthless. The higher your heat level, the faster you dissipate heat, which rewards smaller alphas/group firing with increased DPS. Actually, this was the simpler of suggestions in the thread, and one that would probably make it in the game.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 March 2016 - 01:28 PM.

[cazidin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 March 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

Only when damage was transferred from other sections.

Thank you. Its been too long since I've played MW4. Unfortunately its one of those games that seems to play worse on the new and improved modern systems.

[LordKnightFandragon]

And this new system is?

[cazidin]

LordKnightFandragon, on 01 March 2016 - 02:59 PM, said:

And this new system is?

From what I can gather it's either a proper Heat Scale that will penalize you for going beyond X heat threshold or a system that artificially limits grouped weapon fire if they exceed Y damage.