141 replies to this topic

[Novakaine]

Gyrok, on 01 March 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

Show me facts...

Not screenshots from people playing LRMs, not anecdotal evidence submitted in story form.

Show me facts that can even get LRMs into a "competitive" place with direct fire...and I will reconsider. At this time...there are none, and you cannot provide any because there are none to be had.

While staring at a mech:

Direct Fire > LRMs

For indirect fire:

Strikes > LRMs

What are you missing? The video has all the evidence showing the proof, the onus is on you to provide information to the contrary.

Don't be obtuse, no LRM's can't compete with meta laser vomit which so many of you love.
But they do have a equaled and valid place.
I have yet to see a single CW without each side having some LRM boats.
But I guess that's not "comp" enough for your ilk.

[Trauglodyte]

Well, I personally only have a few LRM mechs: 1) Hunchy 4J (I bought it back during beta cause everyone bagged on how bad is was and I pretty much shut down people that played against me in it) w/ 2 LRM-5s, 6 Medium Lasers, and a 275 STD engine for a 97kph speed, 2) Wolverine w/ an ALRM-10, 2x ASRM-4s, and 3 Medium Pulse Lasers, and 3) my Jager which has 2x LRM-10s, 2x Medium Lasers, and an AC/20. With the first two mechs, I use the speed and the LRMs to essentially LRM brawl and, when given the chance, a means by which to dead fire smash stupid assault mechs that stand out in the open. The important thing is that the LRMs aren't my primary weapon; they're a weapon that I can use when I'm approaching a target but can't bring my primary weapons to bear. The Jager is essentially the same thing - my AC20 (4 tons of ammo) and Md Lasers are my primary weapon but the LRMs only have 1.5 tons of ammo each so they're there to give me something to fire when I know someone is brawling but I can't get there or when someone is stupid enough to stand out in the open (see above). My big guns punish people while the LRMs reduce the staying power of that target. Plus, hey, it also assists my teammates and that is more than ok with me. After all, Battletech doesn't have a Death Star/Star Killer Base weapon, that I know of, that I can equip to burn through obstacles.

[Gyrok]

Dracol, on 01 March 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

At this point in time, y'all have painted Gyrok into a corner and he's a scared badger lashing out at anything that comes into reach.

He's trying to maintain some shred of respect. Granted, he lost it all when CW started, but we all can tell he's delusional from the posts he makes. However, if he were to relent from his initial position, then his clearly stated actions of acting against LRM users who drop with him would become Asshatery, instead of the lofty actions of a teacher that he has portrayed em as.

So, in order to remain a teacher instead of a asshatery acting numbskull, he must defend his initial position with any weak, flimsy, or even down right inaccurate remarks that float to the surface of his tar filled mind.

TL:DR for Gyroks: You poorly defend your case because you want to be seen as a teacher, not as an ******.

No...the goal posts keep getting shifted on me.

One person says less than 50% is a poor hit rate...and I agreed...if you are holding your own locks. However, you must be exposed to hold your own locks...(unless a buff to tag made it shoot through a berm or a rock, and I am unaware...in which case, correct me...).

The next person comes along and says they require no face time.

However...if you are holding locks to get a high hit rate...they do require face time.

If you play them from behind a hill, with no backup weapons...no face time...but then you are cannon fodder for a light back hunter and a drain on your team because you are not sharing armor.

How am I supposed to characterize LRMs when every 2 bit scrublord with half a brain cell comes in and changes how they are effective to try to counter an argument?

[Jenovah]

Gyrok, on 29 February 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

That is true...until...

1.) The spotter is focus fired and killed

2.) The UAV is shot down

3.) ECM moves in to cover the target

4.) the LRM boat is focused by a flanking force that kills it because LRM boat

The problem with this is...most people in the YOLO queue end up with a result above, and a terrible match score that reflects how poor the weapon system as a whole is...and they yell "stupid team" or "nubs" or berate everyone for "not holding locks".

To make my point...when someone comes in and announces they have LRMs, or they want/need locks....I do not lock a single target all match...and my clan mates will not either. Eventually, if you starve them long enough, they will figure out that they need something that is not LRMs on their mech...or they will drop in PSR enough they end up in the church of low skill.

So you intentionally handicap your team, and yourself, by not locking targets..... cutting your nose to spite you face, jeez, you're a brilliant one...

That being said, I bring a LRM boat with 5MPL's in my warhawk and people just think its a easy lrm boat to eat up... Until they get cored out. Knowing how to utilize a weapon is making it effective.

That and I tend to get my own locks unless I see a tag up, or narc, or someone in trouble that I cant range his target with my lasers but I can smack them with LRMS- or make him run due to the missile warning, etc. Indirect Fire Support has been used since before the bow and arrow. There's a reason it has lasted so long, and was discovered to fill the gaps of direct fire. I get it, this is a game, but still..... Thousands of years of warfare and you think you're smarter?

LOL

[adamts01]

Novakaine, on 01 March 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

Don't be obtuse, no LRM's can't compete with meta laser vomit which so many of you love.
But they do have a equaled and valid place.
I have yet to see a single CW without each side having some LRM boats.
But I guess that's not "comp" enough for your ilk.

How can LRMs have an equal place if they can't compete?

[SQW]

adamts01, on 01 March 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

How can LRMs have an equal place if they can't compete?

LRM require good team work to get the most out of it. Laser meta is all about personal skill. Plus a lot of the older maps were designed to brawl at 400m. Then there was the LRM nerf. Finally, god awful CW maps also don't encourage multi-layered field of fire.

Just ask yourself, how many tag and narcs do you see in a typical game? When everyone is all about themselves, how can LRM shine? However, on the rare occasion that you do meet a RVN-3L paired with 2-3 competent LRM boats, you'll see just how powerful it becomes.

[Scar Glamour]

Well, I am glad that it's finally settled. In testing grounds with stationary mechs LRMs are simply terrible. Never again shall I go to testing frounds in a 4xLRM15 Mad Dog. NEVER!

[Wolfways]

I love how Gyrok posts about how LRM's are bad compared to direct fire weapons and people bash him while saying how LRM's can be okay if used well...you know, because direct fire weapons can easily be used to do better than LRM's...
I use LRM's on my builds (stock weapon builds) and that's only because I'm stubborn. LRM's really suck compared to other weapons (except flamers and MG's) and I hate how one of my favourite BT weapon systems is so bad in MWO because some players can't learn to use cover well.

I thank anyone who posts about LRM's being bad, as hopefully one day they might get the buffs they need.

Pjwned, on 01 March 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

Not just no but hell no, that would be ridiculously unfair for indirect fire lock-on weapons.

The missile warning needs to go because...

Quote

We don't need another lurmpocalypse, the answer isn't to make a bunch extremely heavy handed buffs so that LRMs are easy god mode. I've read some suggestions about making LRMs go faster the farther they travel, and that could be okay, but just blanket buffing their velocity to ridiculousness is stupid.

LRM's can never be long range weapons as long as the warning exists because players run for cover the second they hear it. If there were no warning you would know you were being targeted by LRM's when the first salvo hits you, so the LRM user at least gets to hit you once before you are hidden.
(Note: I also think all launchers should have the same cooldown so LRM5's cannot be spammed.)
I could understand a warning existing if it was to counter a powerful weapon, giving you the chance to get to cover before your mech takes a huge amount of damage, but why would anyone invent a warning system to counter one of the weakest weapons in the game?

Imo LRM's need some big buffs to make them more viable as direct fire weapons but as Russ has said newer/low tier players complain about LRM's being a huge force multiplier so maybe indirect fire should be nerfed slightly. Maybe no indirect fire unless by UAV, NARC, or TAG.

[Wolfways]

pattonesque, on 01 March 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

Hi! I do in fact realize that and would appreciate it if you would perhaps tone down the rudeness! Gosh!

I don't think you read what I wrote closely, so I'll break it down for you. What I suggested was a ----->*change* <----- to the LRM mechanic in order to make them more useful.

I marked the word that you seemed to miss in a special font. Did you see it? Please let me know if you didn't. I want to be clear!

By "pinpoint" I mean pinpoint damage, i.e. all of your damage going to a single component. Currently LRMs don't have this -- did you know this?

Lots of people don't!

The tradeoff would be this: when firing LRMs at a target in LOS, your missiles would a. have increased velocity and b. follow exactly where your cursor is pointing. You'd have to stare at your opponent for a longer period of time, but the tradeoff would mean you could deliver huge alphas to specific components of moving targets. I don't know that it would make LRMs more viable, but it's clear they need some kind of change.

hoep this help's

I don't agree with this. LRM's should be a spread damage weapon. They are designed to shave off the targets armour before the closer range fight begins.
Staring at your target while direct firing LRM's is extremely good at getting you killed. They should be fire and forget like other weapons. Having to spend time staring at the target while getting the lock is bad enough.

[xe N on]

Nice video. As explained due to their nature and balance reasons LRMs can never become much better as currently without fundamental change to the weapon mechanic. They remain a beginner weapon that become quite useless at higher tiers.

Nevertheless, LRMs could be find use as an tactical weapon / support weapon for fire supression. Especially clan LRMs are more viable than IS because weight is drastically reduced.

If each of 12 mechs carry an C-LRM5 it would be already sufficient. 12 x LRM5 in a well coordinated team could be tactically used.

However, AMS but especially ECM and the "Radar Derp" module both make LRMs not very viable even as support tool because of unreliability.

ECM and RDM need to be nerfed much further to make LRMs even basically usable at higher tiers.

[Xavori]

Rofl.

I love anti-LRM threads. So much angst.

You want real angst, have 2 good LRM pilots utterly wreck any mech that dares peek its head over a hill or tries to move in the open.

Hell, just one LRM pilot who keeps chasing enemies back under cover can dramatically change a battle by limiting their maneuver vs the LRM's team.

If you don't like playing LRM's fine. Don't play 'em. But deciding that because they aren't going to rack up 2k damage in a match makes them bad just highlights your own ability to think of more complex strategies than MECH SMASH!

p.s. The tears when the archers come out will be delicious

[adamts01]

SQW, on 01 March 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

LRM require good team work to get the most out of it. Laser meta is all about personal skill. Plus a lot of the older maps were designed to brawl at 400m. Then there was the LRM nerf. Finally, god awful CW maps also don't encourage multi-layered field of fire.

Just ask yourself, how many tag and narcs do you see in a typical game? When everyone is all about themselves, how can LRM shine? However, on the rare occasion that you do meet a RVN-3L paired with 2-3 competent LRM boats, you'll see just how powerful it becomes.

I'm not mentioning how I feel about them. I'm just pointing out that they cannot be equal to lasers if they can't even compete with lasers.

[xe N on]

Xavori, on 01 March 2016 - 11:14 PM, said:

You want real angst, have 2 good LRM pilots utterly wreck any mech that dares peek its head over a hill or tries to move in the open.

Lie. All my mechs use radar drep module. I can peek over any hill an lough at LRMs that are fired at me, because I simply walk 2 steps right or left and all these missiles miss. If I have no radar derp, I have minimum ECM. If I don't have any of them, I use cover that is steep enough to protect me from LRMs. It is quite easy to avoid getting hit by LRMs.

If you move in the open, I have much more "angst" of focus fire by 40+ pinpoint laser vomit. LRMs have a travel time and give a large red lettering warning if targeted at you. Laser do not.

In addition, LRM boats are mostly defenseless if you cough them in close distance. Aggressive teams will simply push under ECM annihilating any LRM-boat in brawling range in milliseconds ... if the light lance with usually at least 1-2 ECM mechs haven't already killed them.

Maybe LRM boats are efficient in Tier 5 to 3. But at least in Tier 2 and certainly in Tier 1 LRMs play no role anymore.

Edited by xe N on, 02 March 2016 - 02:49 AM.

[Galenit]

Gyrok, on 01 March 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

No...the goal posts keep getting shifted on me.

One person says less than 50% is a poor hit rate...and I agreed...if you are holding your own locks. However, you must be exposed to hold your own locks...(unless a buff to tag made it shoot through a berm or a rock, and I am unaware...in which case, correct me...).

The next person comes along and says they require no face time.

However...if you are holding locks to get a high hit rate...they do require face time.

If you play them from behind a hill, with no backup weapons...no face time...but then you are cannon fodder for a light back hunter and a drain on your team because you are not sharing armor.

How am I supposed to characterize LRMs when every 2 bit scrublord with half a brain cell comes in and changes how they are effective to try to counter an argument?

I use theoretical
1/3 of the ammo for supression, deny the enemy a good position, force them to take cover.
3/6 for direct facetime armor sharing damage
1/6 for the endfight where a single salvo can kill damaged enemys
but, as allways, it depends on the match.

Sometimes i have a narcer and then i will dump all missiles on the narced enemys,
sometimes if i have some scrubs that dont know teamplay, like you, and use most missiles for los firing,
and with some mechs they are just there to do damage on the way to the fight because my mech is slow.

If you use lrms you need to adapt and change your playstyle depending on the match, you have to think and not only press lmb to fire all the weapons.

Maybe thats why a half a brain metawhore cant understand that they can be effective in more then one way?

Sure a pure meta lazor vomit is more effective at the trick it can do, but its still a one trick pony.
Thats why a lot of metawhores dont like polar, its not the arena its pony can do its trick at its best.

Edited by Galenit, 02 March 2016 - 03:02 AM.

[Wolfways]

Galenit, on 02 March 2016 - 02:58 AM, said:

Thats why a lot of metawhores dont like polar, its not the arena its pony can do its trick at its best.

I love Polar. I think it's the best map in the game.
I also like that it makes LRM's slightly more viable and doesn't change anything for other builds (even if bad players do whine about being in a brawler every Polar match).

[Wolfways]

Damia Savon, on 02 March 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

They have a place because they serve a different purpose and function.

Yeah they are used at long range to scrape some armour off the target before closer combat begins...

Unless you're playing MWO in which case LRM's don't work at long range.

[Trauglodyte]

A lot of you guys are giving Gyrok crap for no real reason. He stated his opinion and that is fine. We all know that LRMs are substandard. They're slow to the target, completely nullified by 1.5 tons of equipment (on some mechs), require added tonnage to make them more viable, require specific modules to work better only to have them thwarted by yet other modules, and, at the very end, they splash damage and are especially vulnerable to structure/terrain. Saying that LRMs are weak isn't a lie. I would say, though, that all of that can be negated if people actually stop relying on indirect fire. I've said it a lot but if you can't hit a target with LRMs at a clip of 50% or more, you're a God awful LRM user. But, people don't want to risk themselves with LRMs but will do so over and over again on a push, going from point to point, or to peak and poke. That last point is why so many people look down upon LRMs and is pretty much Gyrok's and the OP vid's point - to make LRMs worth while, you've got to pick your shots (too many LRM users suck and just hide and fire) and you've got to stick a lot more than your nose out there to get the desired impact. The great thing about LRMs is that you've got a lot of options on how to use them and they build up next to no heat so, in small and smart doses, they're a great asset. Look at the 3025 TRO and be amazed by how many mechs carry them but not in the capacity as the primary weapon. Outside of the Catapult and the Archer, I can't think of many that were pure LRMs. That should tell you what's what.

[Pjwned]

Damia Savon, on 01 March 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

LRMs are not fast enough. I rarely fire them at extreme range unless I know the target is out in open and cannot get to cover. Watching them crawl through the sky is very frustrating.

Then you expect too much from LRMs.

Quote

As for direct fire vs. indirect fire that is true, hypothetically. In practice we all know that is so much bullshite. A smart sniper is going to get at least one shot in on you before you realize you are targetted. Most likely he will get a second one in as you look around to see where you got shot from. Of course you might be lucky and be facing right at the sniper when they fire but more likely you won't. It is more likely that one of your team mates will see the sniper and shoot at him. Even if that happens, it doesn't take that long to duck behing a hill or into cover to protect yourself. Try doing that with direct fire lrms.

You are just proving my point by giving an example of a bad player getting sniped by a relatively smart player.

As far as doing that with direct fire LRMs, it's your fault if you expose yourself too long to fire them directly in the wrong situation, not because LRMs are too slow.

Quote

As for indirect lrms, you might not be able to see the mech firing the lrms but you can easily spot where they are coming from. It is really friggin obvious.

It's not about being able to see the mech from behind the hill, it's about being able to fire indirectly from behind that hill without return fire from the target.

Quote

So your team mates can easily head there to kill the boat or you can head there yourself.

And if it's so easy to do then the LRM mech played poorly to allow it to be easy. You're not really giving many arguments that don't involve somebody playing piss poorly.

Quote

What I don't understand is why people get so salty from taking indirect damage from a weapon they deride as worthless. Either lrms are dangerous or they are not. How they are fired really makes no difference. If LRMs are not going to hurt you that much then why do you care? It is rather hypocritical of folks.

It also makes me laugh that the OP and others who deride LRMS also resist any attempt to make them better. *shrugs* Hypocritical bs but what can you do.

I agree with that but "making them better" shouldn't mean extremely heavy handed, over the top ridiculous buffs.

Edited by Pjwned, 02 March 2016 - 11:47 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Don't get me wrong LRMs aren't bad, but they are not good either. However if a mediocre weapon systems meets the "bad to mediocre LRM Player" i encounter most time, this happens:


And because of this. Don't play LRMs untill you understand the way they work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kotzi]

I have been shot with lasers/autocannons at beyond maximum range, does this make them bad too? Because a bad player uses a weapon wrong does not mean that the weapon is bad.