14 replies to this topic

[Gentleman Reaper]

I love that PGI listened to people's concerns with how pointless the more powerful computers were, and the recent patch did a great job to help alleviate some of the issues, but I feel that it's still not enough, especially considering that the tonnage can go to infinitely more useful equipment. If you're willing to bolt on a targeting computer that weight the same as a PPC and LPL, you should really be feeling the difference, and here's how I think it should be changed:

Zoom boost: a good incentive if using long range, accurate weapons, the boost on the higher mark TCs still seem a bit too low, with it hitting a 40 and 47% boost for zoom 1 and 2 respectively. Perhaps a bit more would do, maybe 60% and 70%?

Sensor range: A 7.5% boost really is lackluster on a MKVII TC. This should honestly be the value on a MKI or MKII, with the MKVII getting a boost of somewhere around 20-30%, making it very powerful if you add an Active Probe as well.

Targeting time: The in-game description for this is a bit confusing, as it states a 75% boost to targeting time. Is this 1.75X faster targeting, or is it a -75% targeting time? (4x base time) Perhaps (if it is the latter), make it 80-90% (a 5-10X boost), allowing a sniper to almost instantly identify a weak point and hit it, minimizing exposure to enemy fire.

Projectile speed: Pretty good how it is now, although there is some strange differences on some of the high mark computers. Mark V jumps to a 30% velocity boost from the Mark IV's 20% (I'm fine with this), but the Mark VI sees no increase, with the Mark VII increasing again (to a 35%). Perhaps make the Mark VI 35% and the Mark VII 40%?

Beam range: Hate this boost, it makes no sense and provides a buff to the main advantage Clan lasers have over IS lasers, worsening the issue of Clan ERLLs outranging everything on large maps. I propose (and I guarantee this is infinitely better) changing this for a beam duration reduction. This just obviously makes more sense as the main point of TCs are to increase accuracy. The boost would have to be substantial on high mark computers to be worth it on laser builds, so perhaps max it out at 30-40%, allowing LPL boats to more efficiently focus damage on a single point and providing a better synergy with the velocity boost projectile weapons get.

Critical chance: This is still the main reason why the higher mark TCs aren't worth it, considering the MKVII only gets a paltry 3% greater chance than the 6 ton lighter MKI. If I'm dedicating 7 tons for something that doesn't directly deal damage, I should be able to quickly and reliably finish off a target with stripped armor. It's very difficult to gauge how powerful it would be if the boost is large, but perhaps a 20% boost for MKVII could serve as a reference point for further tweaks.

[Tyler Valentine]

Fascinating. I like the idea of changing the range boost, which exasperates the Clan LASER range problem, to a duration boost but 30-40% is far too much. Maybe 5-15%?

[Y E O N N E]

The only things making something like an isML even remotely competitive with a cERML is the fact that a 10% duration cut puts the damage-per-tick on par with the cERML and that 648 meters max is more favorable than 540 meters max against 756 meters max.

And that's before targeting computers.

So, yeah, not really a fan of widening that gulf by shortening Clan durations or lengthening the range.

[FupDup]

Tyler Valentine, on 29 February 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Fascinating. I like the idea of changing the range boost, which exasperates the Clan LASER range problem, to a duration boost but 30-40% is far too much. Maybe 5-15%?

Well, a duration boost of that high value would only make sense as long as it's restricted to the higher-level TCs (e.g. TC7 takes up 7 tons and 7 slots, that's a lot!).

Obviously a dinky little TC1 will never give more than -5% to the beam (and quite possibly a bit less).

Edited by FupDup, 29 February 2016 - 11:57 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Tyler Valentine, on 29 February 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Fascinating. I like the idea of changing the range boost, which exasperates the Clan LASER range problem, to a duration boost but 30-40% is far too much. Maybe 5-15%?

I don't know, considering you can run an extra LPL instead of a MKVI and VII computer I think the boost seems fair, but they can at least start off with 15%, and move up should it not be powerful enough.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 February 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

The only things making something like an isML even remotely competitive with a cERML is the fact that a 10% duration cut puts the damage-per-tick on par with the cERML and that 648 meters max is more favorable than 540 meters max against 756 meters max.

And that's before targeting computers.

So, yeah, not really a fan of widening that gulf by shortening Clan durations or lengthening the range.

You have to take into account quirks patching up the deficiencies of IS lasers. With a high spec computer, you'll essentially get lasers that are a bit more effective than quirked IS lasers, with the computer's weight nullifying the advantage of the lighter gear, which only really affects ERLLs and LPLs, since the smaller lasers weight the same as IS versions. So you'd end up using more weight just to get a quirked small or medium laser.

[Y E O N N E]

Elit3 Nick, on 29 February 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

You have to take into account quirks patching up the deficiencies of IS lasers. With a high spec computer, you'll essentially get lasers that are a bit more effective than quirked IS lasers, with the computer's weight nullifying the advantage of the lighter gear, which only really affects ERLLs and LPLs, since the smaller lasers weight the same as IS versions. So you'd end up using more weight just to get a quirked small or medium laser.

That was taking into account the quirks patching up IS lasers. You don't get a duration of 0.81 seconds on an isML without a 10% duration quirk and you don't get 648 meters max without a 10% range quirk and the module. The damage per tick on a cERML is 6.09, while the damage per tick on a stock 0.9 second isML is 5.56. With the quirk, it's 6.17. The max range on a cERML with just the module is 756 meters, which dwarfs the 648 on the isML. While I'm scratching paint, you're still doing 2.4 damage; not great, but enough to threaten when fired en-masse.

And IS lasers with both of those quirks are still not generally a match. I'm boating isLL to do what Clans do with boated cERML and cLPL, only I get far fewer heat-sinks and I am reliant on a third quirk, heat-generation, to keep that in check. And I have to do it on heavier 'Mechs.

Now throw in the TCs.

Shorter durations, even 15%, shifts the DPT back in favor of the Clans just as quirks were leveling it out, and the last thing we need is an Ebon Jag that can throw out 11.07 DPT per cMPL...and have six of them. Even 5% takes away the one thing an isMPL has going for it, duration, which is counter to the whole "equal but different" philosophy.

[Chuck Jager]

I can kinda see the logic if you look at the TCs as purely weight for benefit, but common the Clan lasers are pure goodness especially with the 2 crit HS (yeah nerfed some but space still rocks).

TC are kinda like IS engines in that the average build will benefit most from a couple of engines even though there is a huge selection. Some builds may work well outside of the normal range, but all engines/TCs are not viable as a decent build for all mechs.

The duration is the IS balance for range and weight. Play both sides in solo Q try getting a decent score over many matches and you will see a difference in the 400-600m dominance of Clan.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 February 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

That was taking into account the quirks patching up IS lasers. You don't get a duration of 0.81 seconds on an isML without a 10% duration quirk and you don't get 648 meters max without a 10% range quirk and the module. The damage per tick on a cERML is 6.09, while the damage per tick on a stock 0.9 second isML is 5.56. With the quirk, it's 6.17. The max range on a cERML with just the module is 756 meters, which dwarfs the 648 on the isML. While I'm scratching paint, you're still doing 2.4 damage; not great, but enough to threaten when fired en-masse.

And IS lasers with both of those quirks are still not generally a match. I'm boating isLL to do what Clans do with boated cERML and cLPL, only I get far fewer heat-sinks and I am reliant on a third quirk, heat-generation, to keep that in check. And I have to do it on heavier 'Mechs.

Now throw in the TCs.

Shorter durations, even 15%, shifts the DPT back in favor of the Clans just as quirks were leveling it out, and the last thing we need is an Ebon Jag that can throw out 11.07 DPT per cMPL...and have six of them. Even 5% takes away the one thing an isMPL has going for it, duration, which is counter to the whole "equal but different" philosophy.

But again, there's the weight of the TC to make up for the boost, a MKI boosted ML or MPL would be more of less as effective than even the lighter quirked IS lasers, and that's for an extra ton. Then if we're talking about the higher spec TCs, that's a lot of weight used up for that boost, so you get much more accurate lasers, but less than what an IS mech can carry, in addition to the IS lasers running cooler.

[EasyPickings]

I'm sure that everyone's going to rush out and build themselves an underwhelming support assault now that the TC's been "fixed". Just think of the potential!

[Gentleman Reaper]

Chuck Jager, on 29 February 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

I can kinda see the logic if you look at the TCs as purely weight for benefit, but common the Clan lasers are pure goodness especially with the 2 crit HS (yeah nerfed some but space still rocks).

TC are kinda like IS engines in that the average build will benefit most from a couple of engines even though there is a huge selection. Some builds may work well outside of the normal range, but all engines/TCs are not viable as a decent build for all mechs.

The duration is the IS balance for range and weight. Play both sides in solo Q try getting a decent score over many matches and you will see a difference in the 400-600m dominance of Clan.

Bear (HA!) in mind, IS and Clan Small and Medium family lasers weight the same, with the IS's low duration and heat making up for the range and damage advantage the Clan lasers have. So you're using up extra tonnage in order to make them as accurate as IS lasers, which bring the question, 2 C-MPLs and a MKII TC or 3-CMPLs? The TC tonnage devoted to this has to be worth it.

[Lugh]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 February 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

That was taking into account the quirks patching up IS lasers. You don't get a duration of 0.81 seconds on an isML without a 10% duration quirk and you don't get 648 meters max without a 10% range quirk and the module. The damage per tick on a cERML is 6.09, while the damage per tick on a stock 0.9 second isML is 5.56. With the quirk, it's 6.17. The max range on a cERML with just the module is 756 meters, which dwarfs the 648 on the isML. While I'm scratching paint, you're still doing 2.4 damage; not great, but enough to threaten when fired en-masse.

And IS lasers with both of those quirks are still not generally a match. I'm boating isLL to do what Clans do with boated cERML and cLPL, only I get far fewer heat-sinks and I am reliant on a third quirk, heat-generation, to keep that in check. And I have to do it on heavier 'Mechs.

Now throw in the TCs.

Shorter durations, even 15%, shifts the DPT back in favor of the Clans just as quirks were leveling it out, and the last thing we need is an Ebon Jag that can throw out 11.07 DPT per cMPL...and have six of them. Even 5% takes away the one thing an isMPL has going for it, duration, which is counter to the whole "equal but different" philosophy.

You Forgot that you have a higher heat CAP as well. And that you can easily install a MUCH LARGER engine in any mech to get the FREE engine sinks which the clan omni's cannot get and the shoot let me just link two of the favorit 75tonners
TBR PRIME Cooling efficiency caps at 28% thanks to clan weapons running hotter:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fb60f92b4612b88
Marauder Cooling efficiency is 39% with Equivalent alpha thanks to 3LPL ghost heat threshold. And greater sustain thanks to the faster firing times and higher heat cap. Meaning you can fire your FULL alpha more often the clan mech gets so hot as to be at a point that to fire anything more than the 2 LPLs at a time will overheat them and shut them down.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dfbb0c757e4d68e

You are having your cake and eating it too in all areas EXCEPT range and TOTAL ALPHA. The total alpha is again a misnomer because that poor ******* does that once and is limited to one group or the other from thereon out and is at high risk of overheat and free shooting.

The IS mech NOPE. Keep on Keeping on brother, it is laughably easy to keep below the total threshold while still firing the 3lpls which is 33 damage. Compared to the poor clanner at 26 damage. So in any sustain circle jerk 1 v 1 situation with no cover, the IS wins unless the Idjit Simpleton doesn't twist and doesn't aim well.

[Y E O N N E]

Elit3 Nick, on 29 February 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

But again, there's the weight of the TC to make up for the boost, a MKI boosted ML or MPL would be more of less as effective than even the lighter quirked IS lasers, and that's for an extra ton. Then if we're talking about the higher spec TCs, that's a lot of weight used up for that boost, so you get much more accurate lasers, but less than what an IS mech can carry, in addition to the IS lasers running cooler.

Let me put it to you this way:

As it stands, you can already bring quantitatively and qualitatively superior firepower and cooling with a TC installed than an IS 'Mech can without any such restriction. I can build an EBJ with a TC7 and 6x MPL right now and it is a very devastating build, reaching to 400 meters with lasers that have almost the same burn as quirked isML and do 60% more damage, each, along with 23 cDHS to cool them. The only thing making this not a meta mid-range build is the fact that cLPL and cERML offer even more range and even more damage while still retaining a TC1. And we're talking about a disgustingly huge number on the latter, 54 points. Nothing that agile should be able to throw that around at that range and be even remotely playable, but it is even though not quite optimal. Yes, there are IS builds that have similarly large alphas, but they are constrained in reach.

I

Lugh, on 29 February 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

You Forgot that you have a higher heat CAP as well. And that you can easily install a MUCH LARGER engine in any mech to get the FREE engine sinks which the clan omni's cannot get and the shoot let me just link two of the favorit 75tonners
TBR PRIME Cooling efficiency caps at 28% thanks to clan weapons running hotter:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fb60f92b4612b88
Marauder Cooling efficiency is 39% with Equivalent alpha thanks to 3LPL ghost heat threshold. And greater sustain thanks to the faster firing times and higher heat cap. Meaning you can fire your FULL alpha more often the clan mech gets so hot as to be at a point that to fire anything more than the 2 LPLs at a time will overheat them and shut them down.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dfbb0c757e4d68e

You are having your cake and eating it too in all areas EXCEPT range and TOTAL ALPHA. The total alpha is again a misnomer because that poor ******* does that once and is limited to one group or the other from thereon out and is at high risk of overheat and free shooting.

You do realize that there is such a thing as over-gunning, right? Pull off two of those cERML, tweak the armor a little bit, and you receive three more cDHS. That gives you a higher cap (79.8 vs. 72.6), a much higher dissipation (4.89 vs. 3.43), higher alpha (54 vs. 43), higher burst-DPS (10.98 vs. 12.7) , higher sustain (5.08 vs. 4.28, though with 10% heat quirk they are probably more similar), longer effective range (445 m and 600 m vs. 297 m and 402 m), and jump jets on top of all that.

And you don't explode on ST loss (and guess which Marauder doesn't get the big structure buffs).

That TBR is the very definition of having your cake and eating it, too. It has zero deficiencies next to that MAD, which I might add is terrible since it is over-engined and good at nothing in particular. Even other IS 'Mechs will walk all over it.

Quote

The IS mech NOPE. Keep on Keeping on brother, it is laughably easy to keep below the total threshold while still firing the 3lpls which is 33 damage. Compared to the poor clanner at 26 damage. So in any sustain circle jerk 1 v 1 situation with no cover, the IS wins unless the Idjit Simpleton doesn't twist and doesn't aim well.

I dunno what it is about non-comp, predominantly Clan players and failing to understand that a cLPL has more range and should thus be used accordingly. I might as well complain that an isERLL is getting sh*t on by SRMs up close, to carry your train of thought to a logical extreme. No sh*t it's going to get out-brawled by an LPL, but the LPL has a 200 meter deficiency. Play to the Clan strength, and it's easy to stay below threshold, too. If you're fighting predominantly at isLPL ranges, you're better off taking cMPL or going full-brawl and using missiles with cSPL.

Also, what kind of moron gets into a 1-v-1 situation with no cover? Dueling is for chumps, stack the match in your favor.

[Lugh]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 February 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Let me put it to you this way:

As it stands, you can already bring quantitatively and qualitatively superior firepower and cooling with a TC installed than an IS 'Mech can without any such restriction. I can build an EBJ with a TC7 and 6x MPL right now and it is a very devastating build, reaching to 400 meters with lasers that have almost the same burn as quirked isML and do 60% more damage, each, along with 23 cDHS to cool them. The only thing making this not a meta mid-range build is the fact that cLPL and cERML offer even more range and even more damage while still retaining a TC1. And we're talking about a disgustingly huge number on the latter, 54 points. Nothing that agile should be able to throw that around at that range and be even remotely playable, but it is even though not quite optimal. Yes, there are IS builds that have similarly large alphas, but they are constrained in reach.

I

You do realize that there is such a thing as over-gunning, right? Pull off two of those cERML, tweak the armor a little bit, and you receive three more cDHS. That gives you a higher cap (79.8 vs. 72.6), a much higher dissipation (4.89 vs. 3.43), higher alpha (54 vs. 43), higher burst-DPS (10.98 vs. 12.7) , higher sustain (5.08 vs. 4.28, though with 10% heat quirk they are probably more similar), longer effective range (445 m and 600 m vs. 297 m and 402 m), and jump jets on top of all that.

And you don't explode on ST loss (and guess which Marauder doesn't get the big structure buffs).

That TBR is the very definition of having your cake and eating it, too. It has zero deficiencies next to that MAD, which I might add is terrible since it is over-engined and good at nothing in particular. Even other IS 'Mechs will walk all over it.



I dunno what it is about non-comp, predominantly Clan players and failing to understand that a cLPL has more range and should thus be used accordingly. I might as well complain that an isERLL is getting sh*t on by SRMs up close, to carry your train of thought to a logical extreme. No sh*t it's going to get out-brawled by an LPL, but the LPL has a 200 meter deficiency. Play to the Clan strength, and it's easy to stay below threshold, too. If you're fighting predominantly at isLPL ranges, you're better off taking cMPL or going full-brawl and using missiles with cSPL.

Also, what kind of moron gets into a 1-v-1 situation with no cover? Dueling is for chumps, stack the match in your favor.

DING!! Winner.

In which case you only engage at ranges that are optimal for you. You don't try and engage at all ranges and have mastery of none.

The sad part for clan mechs NOW is that PGI has decided that long range peek and poke is boring. All the buffs and fixes have been going to the mid and short range fighting styles. Mid the sides are close to equal (cough with STD and less speed IS is superior). Close is close to equal again and (cough with STD and slightly less speed again the IS is superior).

As long as your Comp team understands that they all need to be moving 69kph they can fit as many standard builds as they like with IS mechs and can do some silly things. Granted most comp teams have way more fun all moving at 81kph+ and obliterating things. Where are the comp teams now? Dropping IS in CW? Dropping mostly in IS mechs?

Hmm. Wonder if there is any correlation to IS mechs simply performing BETTER than clan mechs stacked to go mid to short range.... hmmm....

I wonder....

Ps. Clan former Comp players get that the clan LPL should be used at range.

They also get that, that range is laughably easy to take away.

Edited by Lugh, 29 February 2016 - 01:54 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

But that's the thing, I'm not trying to make an LPL as good as a cLPL at all ranges. My point is that for the tonnage I have to spend for equipment in general, the trade-off is not equitable. Even with quirks, there are some remaining drawbacks. And the reason for that is because long-range play is dominant. Yes, if your brawl team can get into brawl ranges it's going to tear faces off, but you have to avoid getting shot up on the way in. Look at what happened during that Clan vs. IS test: the Clans got shot to bits by the over-buffed isERLL. That is exactly the same problem the IS had before quirks, and it is the problem that will return if TCs buff the lasers in range or duration. With the former you widen the size of the No Man's Land the shorter-ranged IS 'Mechs have to cross, and with the latter you send the DPT value soaring, causing the IS to loose every trade even within range. It's not workable.

Also, an entire comp team moving at 69 kph against another comp team is going to get obliterated since it's not as adept at spreading the damage. Which is why you don't see that. Not even com IS brawlers use STDs, they use XLs because speed is king.