66 replies to this topic

[Triordinant]

New tech is the reason this game is so hard to balance. If PGI stuck to their original 3015 timeline, all the time, money and effort being wasted trying to balance Clan and IS tech could have gone into more mechs, maps, game modes and a fully functional CW by 2014 with deep strategy and resource management set during the 3rd Succession War.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 29 February 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

That's one new game mode for how long?
How is CW doing? Is it going to be just Invasion and Counterattack for a long time?

As various threads have spelled out, the game is getting boring, because it's the same tired game modes and not because of a dearth of Mechs and equipment.

I do mostly agree here, but new (balanced) equipment would help to make the game less boring and could also help a number of currently bad mechs be less bad by giving them more options.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Triordinant, on 29 February 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

New tech is the reason this game is so hard to balance. If PGI stuck to their original 3015 timeline, all the time, money and effort being wasted trying to balance Clan and IS tech could have gone into more mechs, maps, game modes and a fully functional CW by 2014 with deep strategy and resource management set during the 3rd Succession War.

And the actual gameplay would still lack depth since the limitation with regards to tools of dealing damage would be dearth. Not that Clans really made things better, but just keeping this game IS only and adding only the IS future tech would still be great for this game. I mean we still lack any true artillery weapons like the Arrow/Long Tom/Thumper/Sniper.

[Lugh]

GRiPSViGiL, on 29 February 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

How many mechs is it gonna it take for this derphole community to want some actual depth in gameplay?

Thankfully Russ got the memo and they are working on some actual depth to the gameplay.

See the town hall for proof.

[Sniper09121986]

Alistair Winter, on 29 February 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

New weapons will do very little to breathe new life in this game. It'll still be essentially the same game.

Gamuray, on 29 February 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

In terms of new/equip. How about you hold off on that until we actually have now figured out. I can assure you that new weapons/equip will not add NEARLY as much to gameplay as you think. Only mrm's or long toms would add ANYTHING AT ALL to our gameplay. So let the game get shenaniganed into a good state first, THEN you can mess it all up again if you'd like.

Sir.

This game has been is being balanced for three years now and they are coming closer to finding that balance. Now let me ask: are you expecting the same kind of balance when new weapons are introduced, when the specific purpose for introduction of new weapon systems IRL is to tip the balance in one's favour? If that is the case, then we would indeed have the same game and little use for any new things at all.

Look at, say, Ice Ferret. A commonly known piece of stravag due to little pod space and hardpoints available. Now what if it accidentally had heavy lasers? Twice the firepower means roughly twice the hardpoints. Not so useless now, huh? And what about Mad Dog with ATM? It is a glass cannon alright, but now it can fulfill its main purpose (missile carrier) and not remain a defenseless one-trick pony. Fill your own examples for IS tech, I am just more familiar with Clan tech.

And if none of that convinces you, then boy do I have an ace in a hole for you. The number of mechs available with current tech becomes less and less by a month, so pray tell what are you going to play when all the decent mechs are in the game? Ostmann walker pods? Be my guest.

[Triordinant]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 February 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

And the actual gameplay would still lack depth since the limitation with regards to tools of dealing damage would be dearth. Not that Clans really made things better, but just keeping this game IS only and adding only the IS future tech would still be great for this game. I mean we still lack any true artillery weapons like the Arrow/Long Tom/Thumper/Sniper.

I agree. If not for all the time, money and effort wasted on Clan/IS balance we might have Inferno SRMs, Thunder LRMs, smoke rounds, Blazers and Arrow IVs by now.

[MoonUnitBeta]

I feel like the call for more tech stems from other issues within the game.
I feel like we’re asking for more weapons because we think that’s what will make the game interesting.

The fact is we have lots of weapons that do different things. We have is a good base, it’s just they feel…. Well… blasé.

What lacks is the depth of these weapons. And the depth of gameplay.
I know I’ve wanted more weapons, but I only wanted more weapons because I thought that they would be better weapons. And the only reason why I thought they would be better, is because they would be different than what we got. And what I expect from that difference is that they’d have more flavour.

The only weapon that I’d really like to see are light/heavy gauss, and bombast lasers (basically a laser gauss rifle)

I like gauss. Can you tell?
I like them because they are different.

Rather than just new weapons, I’d like to see different manufacturers. I’d like to see less powerful, cooler lasers, but with longer reach and cooldown. Different types of Autocannons with varying re-fire rates and ranges…
And I’d like to see PGI put the effort into incorporating new types of ammo, such as explosive rounds for the AC (slightly lower damage, transfers heat), vs armor penetrating rounds, vs normal rounds…

Stuff like that is COOL.


Edit: Wow. I'm at work and I started typing this post where there was only 1 reply in the thread, and by the time I finished we're all kind of saying the exact same thing. Kinda cool.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 29 February 2016 - 02:08 PM.

[Soldier91]

I really like topic. The game is alright but battletech is still around because of tech manuals and mech building. Having clan mechs with locked equipment and limited inner sphere module selection with locked hardpoints in certain locations is not really the funnest in my opinion. I tend to like mech building just as much as using it. Theoretically clan mechs should be the most fun since omnipods and switching weapon pods in and out to customize stuff if you're into that sort of thing. I usually tend to stick to inner sphere since we're locked into quirks and I just like some of their mechs and prefer the customization options even though I'd prefer clan or IIc. Are IIC even usable in faction war?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MoonUnitBeta, on 29 February 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

The fact is we have lots of weapons that do different things.

Actually, we don't, that is part of the problem. Just look at missile hardpoints and their very limited choices (IS especially). Ballistics currently have the most variety with regards to roles, but unfortunately many of them are bad because velocity is too low across the board.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 February 2016 - 02:10 PM.

[Soldier91]

Mystere, on 29 February 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

What's this obsession with more tech (and more Mechs)?

What MWO desperately needs are more compelling game modes, maps, and game play ... not more PokeMechs and associated equipment.

I really disagree with that. The more you can change your mechs around the more the actual game play changes. There is always optimal things but when you have a hard count of player capacity per match and everyone doing something it all sort of evens out even if there is one thing that's better than everything else. There's always something that is better for an overall strategy, if you wanted to focus on short range missiles everyone would stack their deck for that. It doesn't really mean those things are over powered.
A lot of the maps are pretty good already when there are objectives gameplay focus' around those grids most of the maps just go unused as is.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 29 February 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

I do mostly agree here, but new (balanced) equipment would help to make the game less boring and could also help a number of currently bad mechs be less bad by giving them more options.

But that still does not solve the "depth" problem that has been around since .. well forever.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 29 February 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

But that still does not solve the "depth" problem that has been around since .. well forever.

Depends, having more options for strategy and mech choices does increase depth, anything more you have to factor in when building a mech/drop dec is adding depth.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 29 February 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

But that still does not solve the "depth" problem that has been around since .. well forever.

Right, new equipment alone doesn't solve it, but it still does help and assuming new equipment is properly balanced then it doesn't hurt things either.

It would be nice to have more options for missiles because the current number of options is pathetically low, lighter weight ballistics such as mech rifles and light ACs, maybe have light PPCs and/or binary lasers too, etc. There's also other equipment that could be added that aren't weapons, but having more weapons is the biggest thing.

Edited by Pjwned, 29 February 2016 - 02:35 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

dario03, on 29 February 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

The more that gets added the better. The thing is everything you listed is coming, some of them in a couple of months (PVE campaign being a ways out). But we haven't heard anything about new equipment or weapons coming anytime soon. Actually in the last town hall Russ was talking about not adding things and that needs to change.

We'll agree to disagree then. The more that gets added, the less frequent we will see PGI fixing useless equipment, weapons and/or mechs. The people who would work on balancing new tech are the ones who should be working on jump jets right now, for example. Or how about that complete revamp of the command console? Or what about making MASC worth its weight across the board? Or AMS? The list goes on.

And then there's the question of intotech, active/passive radar, new skill trees. It's the same people who would work on that too. They need to sort that stuff out before adding new tech.

We'll agree to disagree, I guess. I'm just not excited by new tech, at all. Fix the stuff we have already, plx.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 29 February 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 February 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

Actually, we don't, that is part of the problem. Just look at missile hardpoints and their very limited choices (IS especially). Ballistics currently have the most variety with regards to roles, but unfortunately many of them are bad because velocity is too low across the board.

Haha, that’s funny because I think the opposite. Missiles are more diverse than ballistics because, big or small, any mech can use a missile weapon, and it completely changes the role of the mech. Narc, LRM’s, SRM’s. And I’ve seen light mechs use each of those to varying degrees.
Lasers fill accomplish this as well.

As for ballistics… It’s Machine guns on a light mech (except for the Urbie), and then the rest of the ballistics are pretty much the same and you can really only use on heavier mechs. The gauss rifle is really the only saving grace for the ballistics category in terms of being different.

So if there were a category that could benefit from new weapons, it’d be ballistics.

[Soldier91]

Alistair Winter, on 29 February 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

We'll agree to disagree then. The more that gets added, the less frequent we will see PGI fixing useless equipment, weapons and/or mechs. The people who would work on balancing new tech are the ones who should be working on jump jets right now, for example. Or how about that complete revamp of the command console? Or what about making MASC worth its weight across the board? Or AMS? The list goes on.

And then there's the question of intotech, active/passive radar, new skill trees. It's the same people who would work on that too. They need to sort that stuff out before adding new tech.

We'll agree to disagree, I guess. I'm just not excited by new tech, at all. Fix the stuff we have already, plx.

The problem with that is new tech does sort of displace old tech. I been using an old assault mech that's been around for a while. It works when it works. When it doesn't even a tier 1 pilot couldn't of piloted their way out of that jam or avoided it.
I really think IIC mechs solve all the problems and once those start to get more common inner sphere and clan mechs are both going to be sort of meh in comparison. They're really new though I never seen one in a faction drop yet and there are just a handful of them but they fill the gap of ballistics for weight a lot of inner sphere mechs could use.
I mean if all mechs were able to use the same items and build off the same stuff all the things available now would get used in one way or another tonnage wise except inner sphere missiles clans tech would get favored heavily there.
Off the top of my head here but if you unlocked everymodule for any mech to use the only modules that wouldn't get used are inner sphere AC2, small laser, medium laser, large laser, Extended large laser, command consule. Clan beagle active probe.

Edited by Soldier91, 29 February 2016 - 02:50 PM.

[Novakaine]

Must be one of the guys who threatened to hunt me down and cut off my head.
I'm sorry Oxide guy

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MoonUnitBeta, on 29 February 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

Narc, LRM’s, SRM’s.

You have a weapon that is incredibly niche (only useful with LRMs), a niche tracking missile system effective at mid-range, and a shotgun weapon. You are very limited in self-sufficiency for two of them (one of which is best used with a head TAG) and very niche in how useful you are.

AC5s are decent DPS machines given the right quirks (like the penta-Mauler), you have Gauss which is a good long range PPFLD weapon, and then you have AC20s which similar to AC5s, given the right quirks are decent short range poke weapons thanks to their PPFLD. You have UAC5s which are less reliable version of AC5s, but lend themselves well to burst style engagements or punishing slow mechs without support.

It is very much about what role they take on that make ballistics a little more varied. That said, it is still not that great, thanks to semi-bad balance issues.

[Almond Brown]

It seems strange that so many currently rail against the LRM but somehow figure that stuff like the Arrow IV and or Long Tom Missiles would be somehow better?

[Xavori]

If you have problems with LRM's, just hire a KitFox pilot with triple AMS, the AMS modules, and ECM to hang out with you. As an added bonus, he'll still be quick enough to keep lights off ya

Edit:

p.s. I lurve LRM's. I built a 100% pure LRM boat for the Warhammer leaderboard event and took it to #13 (pure as in nothing but LRM launchers and ammo...for teh lulz). I used to drop with the ECM Atlas using LRM's...mostly to annoy Tormented of Kcom before they switched over to clan. I'm really good at using them. However, even without people specifically building to counter, my LRM20+Artemis stats show only about 1/3 of them hit. If you actually build AMS into your mechs and either run the handful of dual AMS or the aforementioned triple AMS KitFox, you're nearly invulnerable to the things.

Edited by Xavori, 29 February 2016 - 03:17 PM.