47 replies to this topic

[ScarecrowES]

I'm creating this topic in the hopes to spur PGI to address a number of smaller mech model adjustments that the community has suggested over the years. Because PGI has to touch and modify nearly each and every one of the 60 or so chassis in the game - up to and potentially including such activities as model rescaling, texture work, rigging, animation, hitbox adjustment, hardpoint relocation, etc. - this seems like a golden opportunity to incorporate some of these model adjustments.

I wish for this forum topic to serve as a sort of semi-official collection of suggestions to provide PGI with clear indication of community wants on the topic of model adjustments. As such, I'd like replies to be as clear and objective as possible - and kept to the point of the topic. A certain amount of debate is acceptable if the community at large does not agree with a particular suggestion, but I do not wish for this topic to devolve into random arguments and off-topic conversation.

Other governing rules for model adjustments might include the following:

-Only suggestions that include relatively minor adjustments to the existing models should be discussed.
-I wish to keep the scope of these modifications to items that could be accomplished relatively-simply during the rescale process.
-Suggestions that seek to modify or outright change the aesthetic or base geometry of a mech should not be discussed. This includes, for instance, modifying the size of the head geometry relative to the torso, etc that would require additional model work. This would not be a thread to debate how closely the pure aesthetic appearance of a model reflects original source representation (you don't like how fat and square the Timberwolf has gotten).
-Modifications to the geometry of variable geometry hardpoints should be acceptable for suggestion in this thread.

Keeping that in mind, I'll start with the following suggestions:

For many reverse-joint legged mechs - to include the Timberwolf, Mad Dog, Ebon Jaguar, Cicada, etc - I suggest looking into the feasibility of re-rigging these models to provide for a more squatted stance, as has been noted often by the community. It is felt amongst a large portion of the community that many chicken walkers simply stand too upright. Modifying the stance of these mechs could be accomplished easily during the rescale process.

For the Warhawk specifically - but this can apply to several other mechs - I suggest modifying the angle of the upper arm portion to raise the forearm. Many in the community feel that the arms in the Warhawk sit too low, and should rest along-side the torso. This brings the arm locations in-line with the representation of this chassis in the source material as a means to protect the torso from the side and differentiate the profile from the Dire Wolf. This change should be simple to accomplish during the rescale, as it does not affect animation or texture work, or hardpoint locations.

Additionally for the Warhawk, I suggest doing a minor remodel for hardpoints on the arms to incorporate longer laser barrels as featured on newer mechs like the Rifleman. This would also apply to other mechs like the Jagermech, Mad Dog, etc. While this requires slightly more work than a slight model rerigging, it's still a very minor change and affects no other aspects on the model. It requires no more work than relocation and adjustment of hardpoint locations for models that are receiving a significant rescale.

A further suggestion for the Warhawk would be to model and introduce the F variant, It is a minor model adjustment, only requiring the addition of a single ballistic hardpoint in the right torso, which should be very easy to model and could be accomplished with very little work during the rescale and effects no other aspect of the model. The addition of this variant adds a much-needed hardpoint option to a slightly hardpoint-starved chassis.

Those are my suggestions to get the topic going. What are yours?

Edited by ScarecrowES, 01 March 2016 - 09:26 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

I know the community has made many more suggestions over the years for minor model fixes or adjustments. The above are just some of those.

If we can get PGI to do them during the rescale process, they're vastly more likely to happen.

[Juodas Varnas]

SAVE THE QUICKDRAW 2016!

Seriously. It's the most egregious example of getting absolutely butchered during the 2d-3d translation process.
It needs it way more than anything else.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 01 March 2016 - 09:52 AM.

[Felbombling]

The massive hump on the Hunchback could be toned down a little bit. The thing is unjustifiably massive, other than sticking to the original TRO image. Any other Mech in the game mounting an AC/20 just basically has the appropriate barrel slapped on. I'm all for tradition, canon, etc., but it could use some love.

[zagibu]

StaggerCheck, on 01 March 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

The massive hump on the Hunchback could be toned down a little bit. The thing is unjustifiably massive, other than sticking to the original TRO image. Any other Mech in the game mounting an AC/20 just basically has the appropriate barrel slapped on. I'm all for tradition, canon, etc., but it could use some love.

DO. NOT. TOUCH. THE. HUNCH.

[Dr Mlem]

Juodas Varnas, on 01 March 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

SAVE THE QUICKDRAW 2016!

Seriously. It's the most egregious example of getting absolutely butchered during the 2d-3d translation process.
It needs it way more than anything else.

Damn that's apparent. What the hell happened?

[ScarecrowES]

I think making the suggested modifications to the Quickdraw and Hunchback would require specific geo rework, and that's probably beyond the scope of what could be acconplished during rescale. The Hunchie's hunch, if agreed on by the community, would definitely require a straight up remodel... which may be due anyway as it still doesnt conform correctly to the variable hardpoint geo.

With the Quickdraw I think there were a few different gripes... weren't there? Both that the model ended up more stout (shorter and wider) and ended up with some undesirable torso geo? I doubt the torso geo could be redone during a rescale, but perhaps a proportional rescale along a single access could be done? Make a mech taller or shorter without messing with the width or depth? I'm not sure how something like that would work with rigging, animation, and hardpoints. But maybe if they already have to do something like that for the Quickdraw, they could go ahead and adjust the proportion too.

I think the Centurion could probably use a similar single-axis rescale too, if possible. Would anyone else agree on that?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 01 March 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

With the Quickdraw I think there were a few different gripes... weren't there? Both that the model ended up more stout (shorter and wider) and ended up with some undesirable torso geo? I doubt the torso geo could be redone during a rescale, but perhaps a proportional rescale along a single access could be done?

The only real problem with it proportionally is how long the legs are, it has one of the smaller torso sections of all heavies (appropriate since it is 60 tons) and the arms aren't really extensive, nowhere near Dragon level.

ScarecrowES, on 01 March 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

I think the Centurion could probably use a similar single-axis rescale too, if possible. Would anyone else agree on that?

Naw, I still think it just needs to be smaller on all axis', perspective messes with you in the concept art.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 March 2016 - 02:26 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 March 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

The only real problem with it proportionally is how long the legs are, it has one of the smaller torso sections of all heavies (appropriate since it is 60 tons) and the arms aren't really extensive, nowhere near Dragon level.


Naw, I still think it just needs to be smaller on all axis', perspective messes with you in the concept art.

With volumetric rescaling, the tendency will probably be that humanoid mechs will actually appear larger than their hunched cousins in the same weight group. This is part of the reason I'd like to see minor model changes made before the rescale is complete, to make sure we have ideal model proportions within a model before we have to back through a balancing pass.

I can't imagine PGI will want to review a mech model yet another time to go back and fix something that could have been done easily in-progress on a rescale. For a lot of small model changes, I feel like it's now or never.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 01 March 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

With volumetric rescaling, the tendency will probably be that humanoid mechs will actually appear larger than their hunched cousins in the same weight group. This is part of the reason I'd like to see minor model changes made before the rescale is complete, to make sure we have ideal model proportions within a model before we have to back through a balancing pass.

Not everything is getting globally rescaled, from what I understood in the Town Hall, some are getting sections reviewed for rescaling (like the Quickdraw legs hopefully).

[cazidin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 March 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Not everything is getting globally rescaled, from what I understood in the Town Hall, some are getting sections reviewed for rescaling (like the Quickdraw legs hopefully).

Maybe the Black Knight will get bigger shield arms.

[Graugger]

From what I understand PGI is making light mechs smaller.

[Aetes Nakatomi]

Hunchback is near perfect... do not even suggest messing with my baby. I love how she looks and how she drives.

[Alistair Winter]

Juodas Varnas, on 01 March 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

SAVE THE QUICKDRAW 2016!

Seriously. It's the most egregious example of getting absolutely butchered during the 2d-3d translation process.
It needs it way more than anything else.

Yep! This was going to be my first 60 ton mech when I saw the artwork. Then I saw the 3d model and my wallet was like "Nooope!"

Really tragic, considering the awesome concept art Alex made. I really, really wanted the slim, tall 60-ton heavy that the Quickdraw should have been.

[ScarecrowES]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 March 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

Not everything is getting globally rescaled, from what I understood in the Town Hall, some are getting sections reviewed for rescaling (like the Quickdraw legs hopefully).

I might have to review the townhall again, as I didn't hear anything said about individual components of a model being adjusted. However, if this is what's wanted, and it's possible to scale different parts of a model independently, then I'll definitely add it to the OP list. "Independent rescale of individual mech components on some models such as the Quickdraw (increase leg length) to provide better proportioning and model balance in lieu of total rescale, as applicable."

Once I get enough suggestions that I can better categorize and then qualify with examples, I'll better organize the OP so that it's more cohesive and clear. "Independent proportional rescaling" could be a section unto itself, for mechs that need larger or smaller limbs proportional to torso size (ex). Are there more examples of this? Arms or legs on models that need to be made larger or smaller?

Along the lines of adding further examples to previously-mentioned model change types... are there any other examples the community can think to include of the following situations:

-Model stance changes? Making a mech stand more upright or squatted. The mech is largely proportionately correct, but stands/walks in a way that throws of body proportions or otherwise affects balancing/play. An example already given was the oft-mentioned Timberwolf/Mad Dog legs not being squatted enough. I'd like others that might seem off. And perhaps can anyone think of a mech that needs to stand LESS hunched and more upright?

-Forearm/upper limb resting location changes? Better positioning of weapon-carrying upper limbs. Limbs are proportioned correctly, but are positioned in a way that seems awkward, or not in keeping with overall model proportions. Limb position could also affect balance, to include utility to shield the torso from fire and general positioning of hardpoints. This could mean moving the forearms up or down, or inboard/outboard to the body. An example I gave were the arms on the Warhawk, which should be rotated rearward at the shoulder and bent more at the elbow to bring the forearms more up along the side of the torso. This brings the arm hardpoints up and allows the arms to better shield the torso (it doesn't hurt that it is in keeping with source designs as well). Does anyone have any other examples of mechs that could stand to have their arms bent a little to bring the forearms up? I think the Nova was mentioned way back when... would this still be of interest after a rescale? Are there any examples of limbs that should sit lower? Or farther in/out?

-Laser hardpoint extensions? General locations for laser hardpoints are correct, but "laser stubs" look awkward. This is less of a balancing issue and more one of proportions and aesthetics, but is something that many people feel very strongly about. An example already given is, again, the Warhawk, which has lovely ballistic and PPC hardpoint extension in the arms, but merely stubs once lasers are installed, giving the arms a blunt and stunted appearance not otherwise in keeping with the rest of the design. The Rifleman shows it's possible to have lasers not look silly by having "barrels" of their own. I suppose the Jagermech "Firebrand" could use this treatment too. Are there other mechs people can think of that need a more "barreled" design to hardpoints when lasers are mounted? How are the Enforcer and Vindicator arms when lasers are installed in the arm energy hardpoints?

-General variable hardpoint geometry adjustments? Mech hardpoints are in the generally correct locations but are presented in a way that presents a discrepancy in proportion, aesthetics, or balance. I know many people have mentioned the secondary missile hardpoints on the Timberwolf as a glaring example of poor hardpoint design - and beyond pure aesthetics this also affects how missiles are fired from those hardpoints and the overall profile of the mech. Other than the arm boxes on the Catapult (which should be fixed in the new model), are there other glaring examples of hardpoint geometry that just doesn't work? Another example might be the missile boxes on the arms of the Shadowcat, which are expressed around the perimeter of the arm, rather than mounted on the structure at the front (a la Stormcrow and Adder, etc).

-Unintroduced chassis variants requiring only minor hardpoint work to add? The mech model already exists in-game and provides an existing hardpoint template onto which a different type of hardpoint can be used, or additional hardpoints may be mounted in pre-provisioned locations, to create a new variant of that chassis. I've used the example of the Warhawk-F, which features a single ballistic hardpoint in the right torso. There already exists a variant that has hardpoints provisioned in the right torso (the B-variant, for instance, has a lower torso missile hardpoint) that could be adapted with very little work to be used as a ballistic hardpoint instead. This allows the F to be introduced. Are there other mech variants out there that can be introduced without requiring the model to be reprovisioned for hardpoints (essentially adding spots on a model, usual flat spaces, where variable geometry can be later stuck on if used)? Though such a variant is entirely fictional, it is possible to adapt the Shadowcat-P left torso (currently 3 ballistic hardpoints) to accomodate energy hardpoints instead - thus providing a much-needed option for Shadowcat builds that currently does not exist. It should not even be necessary to modify the current provisioning to accomodate energy weapons. Are there other examples (perhaps ones that do not require fictional variants)?

[1453 R]

Graugger, on 01 March 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

From what I understand PGI is making light mechs smaller.

Some of them. Potentially. Can you really argue things like the Kit Fox don't need it?

Anyways. Insofar as minor modeling tweaks goes...

1.) Warhawk
If the stance could be altered - higher arms, as mentioned, or a different leg rigging, or something - anything - to differentiate the Warhawk from the Dire Whale, that would be stellar. I really like the Warhawk. I do not like being focused down because I look like a Whale every time I run the Warhawk.

2.) Mad Dog
Currently the Mad Dog is sortakinna wearing fat pants, due to being given the same leg geo as the fifteen-tons-heavier and significantly larger Timber Wolf. If the legs could be independently slimmed down a little bit, to better fit the somewhat more spindly original art and also just the aesthetic of the rest of the machine, that would be awesome.

I...can't think of anything else right off that strike me as being in line with the goal of the thread. So we'll leave it there for now.

[Tarogato]

1453 R, on 01 March 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

Some of them. Potentially. Can you really argue things like the Kit Fox don't need it?

Anyways. Insofar as minor modeling tweaks goes...

1.) Warhawk
If the stance could be altered - higher arms, as mentioned, or a different leg rigging, or something - anything - to differentiate the Warhawk from the Dire Whale, that would be stellar. I really like the Warhawk. I do not like being focused down because I look like a Whale every time I run the Warhawk.

2.) Mad Dog
Currently the Mad Dog is sortakinna wearing fat pants, due to being given the same leg geo as the fifteen-tons-heavier and significantly larger Timber Wolf. If the legs could be independently slimmed down a little bit, to better fit the somewhat more spindly original art and also just the aesthetic of the rest of the machine, that would be awesome.

I...can't think of anything else right off that strike me as being in line with the goal of the thread. So we'll leave it there for now.

WHK needs to be made less wide, imo. It needs to look more gaunt - the present model looks obese. The CT needs to be made thinner, in particular, so that it doesn't look like the front of a Mack truck.

The Mad Dog and Timber Wolf are supposed to have exactly the same legs - that's how it's always been in the original BT art and subsequent derivatives (well, at least MW2, MW3, and MW4 that I checked). In my opinion they don't need slimmed, but they need to have a bit more bend in them to lower the posture of the mech. The same could be said for the Timber, but to me it's not as noticeable an issue with the Timber.

[FupDup]

Tarogato, on 01 March 2016 - 05:18 PM, said:

The Mad Dog and Timber Wolf are supposed to have exactly the same legs - that's how it's always been in the original BT art and subsequent derivatives (well, at least MW2, MW3, and MW4 that I checked). In my opinion they don't need slimmed, but they need to have a bit more bend in them to lower the posture of the mech. The same could be said for the Timber, but to me it's not as noticeable an issue with the Timber.

The exact same legs thing is stupid from a balance standpoint because the Mad Cat has plenty of advantages over the Mad Dog as it is. That, and mechs 15-tons apart being virtually the same size also has problems...

Also, from a construction rules standpoint it's even more stupid. The Mad Cat's legs each have 2 Endo-Steel slots. The Mad Dog's legs however have 2 open slots each.

Mad Cat Leg Crits
Mad Dog Leg Crits

Given that the internal structure of the legs is completely different between the two mechs, the lore holdover of identical leg size makes absolutely no sense.

Edited by FupDup, 01 March 2016 - 05:29 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

1453 R, on 01 March 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

Some of them. Potentially. Can you really argue things like the Kit Fox don't need it?

Anyways. Insofar as minor modeling tweaks goes...

1.) Warhawk
If the stance could be altered - higher arms, as mentioned, or a different leg rigging, or something - anything - to differentiate the Warhawk from the Dire Whale, that would be stellar. I really like the Warhawk. I do not like being focused down because I look like a Whale every time I run the Warhawk.

2.) Mad Dog
Currently the Mad Dog is sortakinna wearing fat pants, due to being given the same leg geo as the fifteen-tons-heavier and significantly larger Timber Wolf. If the legs could be independently slimmed down a little bit, to better fit the somewhat more spindly original art and also just the aesthetic of the rest of the machine, that would be awesome.

I...can't think of anything else right off that strike me as being in line with the goal of the thread. So we'll leave it there for now.

The purist in me wants to throw my keyboard across the room at the suggestion that Mad Dogs and Timberwolves should have different sized legs, or that a Warhawk shouldn't look like a Dire Wolf. "They're SUPPOSED to be the same," the purest screams, in it's most nerdy and superior voice. But the gamer in me says, "But it looks ******** that way, and it's not balanced." So I'm torn.

What should have happened, had they been modeled properly, is that the legs would have looked large on a Mad Dog, and small on a Timberwolf... but alas the Timberwolf was designed first and the legs were designed in proportion. Also, as Tarogato pointed out, had it been modeled properly, the Warhawk torso would have been more gaunt so that it could be 15 tons lighter and still be roughly the size of the Dire Wolf. Sadly, neither of these things happened.

It may be possible to rescale the legs on the Timber/Dog independently of the torso so that, when they're appropriately rescaled the legs will still be the same size. I'm not familiar with Crytek or the methods they're using to do rescaling, so I don't know how possible this is.

Sadly, it's too late to remodel the torso on the Warhawk. The design as we see it is fairly essential for hardpoint mounts. Luckily, we could still easily get the proper arm positioning, and it will certainly drop a few shirt sizes when it gets rescaled to its proper place... and at least that's something.

[1453 R]

I don't really mind the Warhawk being big. Some 'Mechs just are (looking at you, Awesome).

I mind that from every angle except the direct front, a Warhawk is almost indistinguishable from a Whale without a second, third, and possibly fourth glance, followed by an outright Look. That's bogus, and it's extremely harmful to the Warhawk.

And yeah, I get the same-leg-molds thing on the TBR and Doge, but c'mon. Are you telling me the Doge doesn't look like it ate about fifteen hundred too many Scooby Snacks and every single one of them went to its thighs? It's just not good, and neither is a 60-ton 'Mech the same size as a 75-ton one.