286 replies to this topic

[Raso]

Why not just lower the heat cap and increase dissipation rate? Make it so it is more practical to have multiple weapons systems for various ranges or functions rather than wasting tonnage on mad DHS. LLas for range, MLas or SPLas for brawl and an AC or two just because. It does the same objective of limiting alpha without introducing a new, convoluted system.

[Gas Guzzler]

Raso, on 02 March 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

Why not just lower the heat cap and increase dissipation rate? Make it so it is more practical to have multiple weapons systems for various ranges or functions rather than wasting tonnage on mad DHS. LLas for range, MLas or SPLas for brawl and an AC or two just because. It does the same objective of limiting alpha without introducing a new, convoluted system.

I would prefer this.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Having used AC builds in comp matches (yes, they are used despite how ZOMG OP LAZORS ARE), and fought against them, no that is not correct. The Mauler MX90 can put out 25 damage PPFLD alphas at 840m, and it has boosted velocity to boot. It is the long range dakka king. A Dakka Dire can strip the SRM torso off of an Atlas in seconds at 300-400 meters (where IS laser vomit happens), even while trying to torso twist, it is only so effective.

Currently, ballistic boats like those are used in combination with other types of builds to lay down ridiculous damage when the opportunity arises. That doesn't mean standing out in the open getting shot. It takes more thought than that.

So this will give boost to ballistic boating Assault population? I say go for it. My Mediums and Lights never had any fear vs Dakka Whales, compared to Gauss vomit Whales. Add to the fact Dire Whale and Mauler both have severe issues with mobility, it is nothing to write home about.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2016 - 07:50 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

So this will give boost to Assault population? I say go for it. My Mediums and Lights never had any fear vs Dakka Whales, compared to Gauss vomit Whales. Add to the fact Dire Whale and Mauler both have severe issues with mobility, it is nothing to write home about.

JM6-DD
WHM-BW
Night Gyr/Nova Cat (will probably get one of those in the next Clan pack)
EBJ To some extent


You will either get that, or PPC/AC5 PPFLD boogeymen. Maybe PPC/Gauss depending on how they implement the system. It's just going to lead to people whining about something else.

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

I'm not worrying about adapting, I just don't like removing the reason to use a large percentage of the mechs in this game, which will largely come down to how far they go with this system. We don't know the details yet, at this point I'm just arguing against the ideology that making everybody have to chainfire everything is the way to go, as it is going to have serious side effects, along with not really fixing anything. Kind of like those medication commercials that say hey will help your allergies, side effects include headache, vomiting, fatigue, death, and damnation to hell.

Okay Gas, I'll bite here....

Doesn't the meta already do that? I mean there are so many mechs that are considered bad, because they can't laser vomit like something else in their weight class.

I'm not saying you'll have to chain fire, just that we might see less LOLPHA, and more volley fire.

Quote

And that last point is another discussion, but you will find people on both sides of the fence there. If you balance around the majority of the playerbase, than you will leave things open to be overpowered at high level play, which also means lack of variety at high level play, which sucks. And frankly, if you look at this game now, when I dropped in my alt account in Tier3-4, I COULD take the famous 2 ML, LRM10, SRM 4, LL, AC5 mixed build and do just fine, so if balance in the mid range is fine, then what is the problem?

What we see at the really high-end level play, are people turning down the graphical settings to get an advantage due to the low detail settings that let you see through buildings and rocks, as well as lower particle effects (what little are left) and reduce the graphical look of laser fire, all to get a minor boost in frame rate. Comp level play will find anyway it can to win at any cost, no matter how well balanced the game truly is. And that's fine, I have nothing against that, it's just not how I like to play.

What I hope this new system will do, is be less convoluted and less arbitrary than the current system of ghost heat.

[CDLord HHGD]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

No body demonstrates anything. They play to win.

That's not what I was told by some of those people. But again, convo for another thread.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

JM6-DD
WHM-BW
Night Gyr/Nova Cat (will probably get one of those in the next Clan pack)
EBJ To some extent

You will either get that, or PPC/AC5 PPFLD boogeymen. Maybe PPC/Gauss depending on how they implement the system. It's just going to lead to people whining about something else.

Leaving non-existent mechs aside, Jagers, Black Widow, and Dakka Ebon are not as high in the food chain as others right now. If the game power level is lowered to their level, I am entirely fine with it. Not to mention that JJs are still nerfed for the PPFLD boogeyman to become serious issue.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[Lugh]

Metus regem, on 01 March 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

Yup, but this is PGI and Paul we are talking about...

So powerdraw will be equal to number of weapon hardpoints.

Each weapon is worth a point, except SLers and splers which are .5 points. Firing more than 2 pts at a time will be heat penalty.

Then they'll call it a day. Derp around with it in the office for a day or two and decide firing only 2-4 weapons at a time solves all the issues complained about, push it to test and then to live in short order.

[Metus regem]

Lugh, on 02 March 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

So powerdraw will be equal to number of weapon hardpoints.

Each weapon is worth a point, except SLers and splers which are .5 points. Firing more than 2 pts at a time will be heat penalty.

Then they'll call it a day. Derp around with it in the office for a day or two and decide firing only 2-4 weapons at a time solves all the issues complained about, push it to test and then to live in short order.

Sadly, this is the very thing I fear they will do....

I just hope they give it more thought than that... I've been around long enough to see some change from PGI, not as much as I would like to see, but some.

[CDLord HHGD]

Metus regem, on 02 March 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

Sadly, this is the very thing I fear they will do....

I just hope they give it more thought than that... I've been around long enough to see some change from PGI, not as much as I would like to see, but some.

I hope power production is directly tied to the engine size and power draw is only based on weapon/damage output. Keep it Simple.

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 02 March 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Okay Gas, I'll bite here....

Doesn't the meta already do that? I mean there are so many mechs that are considered bad, because they can't laser vomit like something else in their weight class.

I'm not saying you'll have to chain fire, just that we might see less LOLPHA, and more volley fire.





What we see at the really high-end level play, are people turning down the graphical settings to get an advantage due to the low detail settings that let you see through buildings and rocks, as well as lower particle effects (what little are left) and reduce the graphical look of laser fire, all to get a minor boost in frame rate. Comp level play will find anyway it can to win at any cost, no matter how well balanced the game truly is. And that's fine, I have nothing against that, it's just not how I like to play.

What I hope this new system will do, is be less convoluted and less arbitrary than the current system of ghost heat.

Well if you are a heavy mech, all you really need is 3E hardpoints and you can bring 3LPLs with a big engine and you are viable. Most of those issues come down to hardpoint placement. Even an Orion wouldn't be a terrible brawler (SRMs, AC20) but most would rather bring a Timber brawler. In a sense yes, the current meta restricts mech, but that is chiefly due to hardpoint placement. If you can put those 3LPLs close together and have decent hitboxes you are set. JJs is a bonus for extra mobility. Changing the alpha limiting system won't change any of that, it will just make the preferable selection smaller, depending how it is implemented. Only a few mechs can really be considered worthless. In most examples of that a meta shift isn't going to change that.

El Bandito, on 02 March 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

Leaving non-existent mechs aside, Jagers, Black Widow, and Dakka Ebon are not as high in the food chain as others right now. If the game power level is lowered to their level, I am entirely fine with it. Not to mention that JJs are still nerfed for the PPFLD boogeyman to become serious issue.

The DD and the Black Widow are pretty dangerous mechs. The only reason they aren't higher on the food chain is because they have to contend with big damage upfront.

And regarding the boogeymen, whatever helps you sleep at night

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 March 2016 - 08:21 AM.

[Scratx]

For anyone thinking ballistics probably don't use up energy because the shells themselves already have the propellant... think about how much energy it takes to counter the recoil.

So, yeah, PGI can make ACs require a lot more power than they produce heat.

[Mister Blastman]

El Bandito, on 01 March 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

It is gonna replace the Ghost Heat system, though in early stage. That's my take from the Twitter reply Russ gave to Homeless Bill.





I personally advocated such system, and I think it is better than what we have now, though less excited about the GH v.2 part. If PGI used forced chain fire and added progressive heat penalty, then I would really become ecstatic.

Hah the power loop system I posted about several times! And it is becoming a reality?

Impossible!

Though the heat addition was not part of it... Get rid of the heat penaltiy because of... physics™ and we might have a winner worth trying.

Perhaps instead of heat penalties we have 'mech system shutdowns a la Mechwarrior 3--hud fuzz, radar glitching, arm actuator malfunctions, movement penalties in addition to weapons not being able to fire until the capacitors are re-charged.

Want that alpha strike? Well be prepared to suffer if you don't take the enemy down in one shot!

[Metus regem]

Scratx, on 02 March 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

For anyone thinking ballistics probably don't use up energy because the shells themselves already have the propellant... think about how much energy it takes to counter the recoil.

So, yeah, PGI can make ACs require a lot more power than they produce heat.

Never said that they don't need electricity... they have motors that are being used to move ammunition from the bins to the breach, in the case of UAC's as they are modeled to look like rotary cannons, they will have a motor driving the rotation of the barrels, they will just use less electricity when compared to a laser, PPC or Gauss Rifle.

[TexAce]

CALLED IT!

(Yeah, I know, someone mentioned in that thread that Homeless Bill also suggested s.th. like it, I didn't prior to my thread though)

[Mister Blastman]

Scratx, on 02 March 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

For anyone thinking ballistics probably don't use up energy because the shells themselves already have the propellant... think about how much energy it takes to counter the recoil.

Not really. Many modern recoil systems don't use electricity. They are often hydropneumatic.

http://encyclopedia2...c+recoil+system

https://en.wikipedia...ecoil_mechanism

Now, that doesn't mean the autocannons shouldn't be balanced. Many weapons use gas re-chambering systems but these are pretty useless at automatically clearing jams so often you'll see electrically fed ammo systems, not to mention electrical compensators (for raising barrel azimuth) to keep the shells on target.

I don't think autocannons can be penalized as heavily as energy weapons due to how much space they give up in terms of ammo/crits/tonnage to use them. But they need some sort of power draw and finding this perfect mix will be a challenge.

I'd like to see the system heavily reward mixed builds and penalize singular style-builds (i.e. all lasers).

Edited by Mister Blastman, 02 March 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

Paul economics now being applied to heat and energy systems ... they mech universe is surely doomed.

[Almond Brown]

Gas Guzzler, on 01 March 2016 - 10:33 PM, said:

stuff

How many seconds does it take 3 JM6-DDs and 3 Dakka Dires to destroy all 3 torsos of an Atlas-S?

stuff

Perhaps a better question would be "How long does "everyone" think that "all 3 torsos of an Atlas-S" should last when facing "3 JM6-DDs and 3 Dakka Dires"?

My Vote: Not very ******* long at all...

Edited by Almond Brown, 02 March 2016 - 08:37 AM.

[Big Tin Man]

So I have previously asked for a system similar to this as well, and I'm excited. I could imagine it looking something like this:

Engine size = X Jiggawatts of power before overload, based upon consumption in the last 1-2 seconds

Overload penalties (cumulative)
0-100% Nothing
100-110% Hud fades out/scrambles 15 seconds
110-125% Take on some heat
125-150% Take on more heat, 20% movement penalty for 5 seconds (clan XL minus 1 ST)
150+ Take on a boatload of heat, 50% movement penalty or 40 kph, whichever is less (the legged effect) for 10 seconds

Power consumption rates:
Movement--sliding scale based upon current speed and mech tonnage, typical stock engine in a mech would take 35-50% at full speed.

Energy weapons, consumption increases with size. Pulses take more than straight beam. Energy consumption is spread over the duration of the weapon discharge (i.e. PPC is instant, C-ERLL energy consumption is spread over the whole 1.2 seconds), which could make for some interesting chain firing action, like the 8 ERLL DWF.

Ballistic: very low energy consumption (just the reload mechanism) with the exception of Gauss, which is a high energy draw when charging, but not when holding (PPC+Gauss could still work)

Missiles: Nominal energy draw, reloading heavier objects than AC's.

So in a lot of ways, it is similar to heat. In several important ways, it's not heat at all. First, it fully resets after 1-2 seconds regardless of the environment's temperature. It encourages more thought in engine size vs. firepower loadout. Overload doesn't necessarily trigger a shutdown. Mechs could be built that could be impossible to get into overload. It's a step in the right direction to balance DPS builds vs. high alpha.

[Big Tin Man]

Scratx, on 02 March 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

For anyone thinking ballistics probably don't use up energy because the shells themselves already have the propellant... think about how much energy it takes to counter the recoil.

So, yeah, PGI can make ACs require a lot more power than they produce heat.

Ok, let's think about it.

Momentum = mass x velocity. Momentum must be conserved, so for a shot fired, it pushes back with an equal force on the mech.

1 Gauss round = 2000 lbs/10 rounds = 200 lbs/2.2 kg/lb = ~91 kg/round
Gauss fires at 2000 m/s

91 kg x 2000 m/s = ~182,000 kg m/s

65 ton Jagermech = 2000 lbs * 65 tons / 2.2 lbs/kg = ~59,100 kg.

So based upon the conservation on momentum principle, if the Jager was on a frictionless surface and fired 1 gauss with absolutely no recoil compensation mechanism it would move backward at...

182,000 kg m/s = 59,100 kg * X m/s

3.0 m/s. Or 10 kph. Or 6.7 mph. Take your pick.

Now add a recoil mechanism that reduces that effect by, say 95% (FWIW, the recoil energy of a M16 is 0.4% of the bullet's energy, meaning the recoil mechanism absorbed 99.6% of the recoil energy). Then apply some mech gyro magic that accounts for the last 5% and let's never talk about this again.

Edited by Big Tin Man, 02 March 2016 - 08:56 AM.