248 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

I left your last paragraph in there to specifically point out everything else that was wrong with your argument.

Then you've failed, because you've done absolutely nothing to demonstrate that I'm wrong in any way.

Quote

LRM's are effective. Just because they're not the fastest killing weapon in the game doesn't change what they do do well. And they have that indirect fire thing going for them that no other weapon system in the game has.

You're apparently not paying attention to what I said.

I said that they're less effective than direct fire weapons. I did NOT say that they're ineffective, and in fact I pointed out several ways that they can be effective.

You're basically agreeing with me while simultaneously saying that I'm wrong.

LRMs are substandard weapons. The math, and actual in-game experience, agrees with that statement. That does not mean that they cannot be effective in some circumstances, just that other weapons are, in general, more effective.

You've said nothing that proves otherwise.

[Afuldan McKronik]

Make the warning equal to two seconds before impact vs velocity, to account for velocity differences(?) I did like the 5 point clusters, might make a headshot by lurm possible. But the problem with that is thats basically either a "5 hit and do 5 damage or 1 hits and does 5 damage." I could see a big bug happening that the game goes "you got hit by 20 lurms heres your 100 points of damage."

[pwnface]

LRMs are still terrible.

I can't believe people are still trying to justify them as "good" weapons after all these years.

[Phra]

The only time I can make it into the teens on my Timber and live to tell the story, when the enemy has a bunch of your kind with their extremely effective pinpoint damage.

As long as you are one of the commies, please do bring more lurmboats, they are really good!

[pbiggz]

[Novakaine]

Well when I claw my way up to T1 from T3, I'm bringing my lurm boats with me.
I'll rule the skies because I'll be the only lurm boat.
No T1 Comp player uses LRM boats right?

[LordNothing]

for a very long time i avoided lerms or missiles of any kind. i did not buy mechs with a lot of missile points, and i did not use the ones that were available, and i limited my inventory to 2 of every kind of launcher (and they were the first thing i hawked when i needed cbills). it wasnt until the maurader came out that i broke with that kind of thinking. on the varient with a lot of missile racks, i put on a bunch of lrms, which i supplemented with an erppc and a bunch of medium lasers, and the thing was a monster. so i have been a lot more open to missile configurations in the last few months. i have a 60 tube awesome now.

however lerms (and to a lesser degree, streaks) are really inefficient weapons. if it were a ballistic, it would be an lb10. some of my ballistic weapons have accuracy as high as 80%, while lerms are closer to 30%. a hundred rounds of ac10 ammo (5 tons) is worth about 800 damage (accounting for misses) if i can use it all (and ive only had 2 builds that could, a jager with 2 guns and a ctf-im with 3). i use the ac10 in cases where i want efficiency. if you are talking ac20 or big arrays of u/ac5s or 2s that goes out the window. you need about 7 or 8 tons of ammo in those cases, and thats still half the ammo needed to match missiles in their ability to do damage. you do loose the savings in terms of gun weight, especially if guns are the core of your build.

then you got other considerations. a lot of tubes can put a lot of damage down range and fast. guns usually win out in dps (exception 5+ lrm5 boats, single ac20s may also be an exception) instead. missiles have indirect fire, but i tend not to use them in that mode. i prefer moderate range bombardment of mechs that i can see, and this is usually supplemented with other weapons. indirect fire is actually pretty good close in, such as an enemy on a ledge just out of sight and poking, i can usually put a stop to that.

you do not need teamwork to be effective with lerms, but if you have it, you will have a good time. its nice to have good recon but sometimes that makes you lazy and you end up corner hiding the whole match. i prefer the in your face approach. then you are getting missiles to hit > 50% as you help your team push the enemy. ive been in fights where all the enemy had to do to live was to walk towards me 10 whole meters, but instead ended up backing into corners and other rubble wondering why they are not getting out of the rain.

[pwnface]

Novakaine, on 02 March 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

Well when I claw my way up to T1 from T3, I'm bringing my lurm boats with me.
I'll rule the skies because I'll be the only lurm boat.
No T1 Comp player uses LRM boats right?

T1 doesn't mean comp. Don't get it twisted.

[wanderer]

There's one thing of note with the OPs math- he fails to include the effective penalty of having a spread damage weapon in his math.

OP's Stalker hits with 800 damage worth of missiles...of which at least a third end up hitting locations that don't contribute to actually killing something. 800 damage in direct fire is coring multiple targets. 800 damage in LRMs is bludgeoning multiple targets, possibly killing them if there's a weak spot someone else opened up as for every three missiles that hit, one of them probably landed on an arm or leg nobody wanted to shoot anyway. 500ish effective damage is 2-3 kills, and that jives pretty good with me lobbing 1800 or so missiles downrange with an ALRM30 Orion.

It's notable that if you're getting all your ammo fired (with reasonable hopes) to target, tube count matters...but generally in the direction opposite to what people think. You want the smallest launchers that'll reliably dump that load on a target, because bigger launchers are actually both slower and spread wider than smaller ones. If 2x15 and 3x10 both get off, say, 720 missiles to a target, the 3x10 will do it faster and that ammo will cause more effective harm than the 15's would. An LRM 20 is inferior to 4x5 or 2x10.

[pattonesque]

Novakaine, on 02 March 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

Well when I claw my way up to T1 from T3, I'm bringing my lurm boats with me.
I'll rule the skies because I'll be the only lurm boat.
No T1 Comp player uses LRM boats right?

you still see lurmboats in T1.

due to the fact that PSR is more of an experience bar than an actual measure of skill, there is a certain variance of skill in the tier.

Generally this happens:

1. LRM Assaults are much less common, and when they do appear they get ruthlessly slaughtered

2. more reasonable LRM-boats like the HBK-4J show up, and are played relatively well

3. most players know how to negate LRMs by using cover or breaking locks or closing the distance

4. when LRM boats do well, it's often because one side has gained an advantageous position with direct damage robots -- so much so that the team would have won with or without the LRM mech

YMMV

[1453 R]

Anything carrying more than mebbe 8 tons of LRM ammo tops is carrying too much LRM ammo.

Sorry, Xavori - but effective LRM builds (quiet a minute Roadkill, I'm making a point ) aren't Stalker bloatboats firing seventy missiles a salvo out of giant launchers while trundling from hill to hill at forty klicks. The fact that you're compensating for a 66% miss rate by bringing five times more ammo than most ballistic builds run should really be taken into account here - if you need to oversaturate your targets that much, there's something wrong with either the weapon, the user, or the 'Mech configuration.

My own LRM machines tend to focus on medium tube counts (between 25-40, generally), with 80+kph in their engines and usually between 5 to 7 tons of ammunition. Had an LRM-25 Thunderbolt that sported a high-mounted ERPPC as well as its TAG prior to the Clan drop that was one of my best 'Mechs (I know, it sounds like an abortion, and in comp play it would be...but trust me, the Thunder Hammer worked like crazy as a 400m fire support 'Mech), and of course the modern hex-LRM-5 Mad Doges have only thirty tubes and (generally) the same 5 to 7 tons of ammo...and they get the same ~500 damage, or better, that you do.

Don't count on spotters or saturation. If your LRM machine needs to fire three tons of ammo to get one tons' worth of damage, you need to work on your accuracy, man. Indirect fire is what you use to keep heads down and get assist points prior to getting into position to do some real damage with medium-range support fire.

Edited by 1453 R, 02 March 2016 - 01:44 PM.

[InspectorG]

chewie, on 02 March 2016 - 12:44 AM, said:

They're not. They're supporting your team by making the enemy keep their heads down.

But couldnt you also say that direct fire applied well enough via firing lines, will keep the enemy LRM-heads down by denying locks?

Support in MWO is damage. Direct is best. Because: facetime.

[pattonesque]

InspectorG, on 02 March 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

But couldnt you also say that direct fire applied well enough via firing lines, will keep the enemy LRM-heads down by denying locks?

Support in MWO is damage. Direct is best. Because: facetime.

yeah I've never understood this argument

If I hear "incoming missile" I tend to retreat to cover

If someone shoots me in the face with lasers or gauss or ACs, I tend to retreat to cover

the difference is that in the first instance I'm probably fine. In the second instance I've been wounded before keeping my head down

[Lykaon]

Curccu, on 02 March 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

Let me begin by saying that you are wrong, I should also add some facepalm.gif but I'm lazy and I don't.

I do play LRMs sometimes and I dare to say I handle them well, so I understand how they work and what are their limitations and weak points but also strengths.

Yes there are few maps that support LRM playing very well as you named them Alphine and Polar Highlands, most maps are pretty bad for LRM playing.

This legendary 840dmg, I'm not even sure why you mention this I mean with lazors and other weapons that do not consume antything except heatbar can do infinite damage... that is way more than 840.

Probably the most important thing about damage is that when you shoot LRMs it hit totally random locations vs well every other weapon in this game excluding streaks.

shooting LRMs from 1250 meters away? Yes doable but one question how do you get locks if you are behind that crest 1250 meters away? not to even mention that if you get that lock and shoot that enemy has almost 7 seconds to break the lock, pretty easy unless it's legged direwolf.

Kcoms... yeah they were correct... you were just useless player in their team, I would be annoyed also.

...and so on... it only takes some gaming skill + you have to understand how game mechanics work in this game to understand that LRMs are not good or effective weapon in 95% of cases.

I assume you mean 95% of the cases where the rest of the team feels exactally the way you do and fail to incorperate proper tactics to exploit the LRMs available?

Here is the thing to many players look at a weapon and judge it based on a limited set of perameters.

it's basic stats ie: mass,crits,heat efficency,damage per second,range and damage characteristics, (pinpoint/hitscan/scattered)

There are several unique effect that only LRMs bring to the match.

One of the more important and frequently overlooked effect of LRMs is the ability to enhance weapon damage output on a limited frontage.

I shall explain: there are many instances of times where only so many mechs will fit within a given fire lane to actually shoot the enemy. If a given lane is 2 mechs wide you get 2 mechs that can shoot through that lane unless the third mech can lob it's damage over the friendlies in front of it to strike the enemy.

Feigning weakness is another potential tactic that LRMs open up. And here is how it's done.

Have one or two mechs in typical poke and shoot mode being obvious and understrength compared to the enemy. The enemy will if they follow the general docterines of MWo game play rush the smaller mech group to flush them from cover and mob them. To do so they need to forgo cover and advance. Since LRM mechs need not be visable to the enemy the enemy has no idea they are not engaging one or two mechs but three or four.

And then there are the psycological effects of LRMs. "missile launch detected" basicaly means "I see you even though you thought you were sneaky" or "nope you can't move into that grid it's mine!" LRMs are a means of exstending map control beyond the safe reach of direct fire mechs.

The issue is LRMs require forethought to imploy correctly at higher tiers or in organized play. In organized play the potential for LRM mayhem is fairly impressive. LRMs have become so rare that many groups have no idea how to effectivley counter a well executed LRM strategy.

The real issue is LRMs are inferior weapons in organized because they are not as simple as point and click.LRMs require team support and planning. Your team mates need to play in a way that exploits the strengths of LRMs and mitigates the difficencies. And well...that's not as easy as point and click direct fire mech murder ball but it is far less predictable.

[Jzaltheral]

Curccu, on 02 March 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

Here you got few issues:
1st Up there you mentioned standing, there shouldn't be any standing in this game, instead maneuvering and trying to find advantage point against enemies.

2nd issue in the hands of competent player against competent player, directfire(doesn't matter are we talking about SRMs ACs PPCs or lazors) is just better than LRMs.

3rd thingy.. I know LRMs can be effective BUT there is that can word, against competent players it's very hard to get good multiple hits with LRMs. If fighting happens close to tall obstacles, buildings and so on it doesn't really matter how good you are, it's just pretty much impossible to be effective with LRMs in those cases.

I gave you a like because I don't disagree with you on any particular point. For me it's a playstyle thing. I prefer LRMs, but I don't make builds that have exclusively LRMs. I ALWAYS bring some kind of direct fire back up weapon. If for nothing else, then for that inevitable moment when I run out of ammo for the LURMs.

[Gorgo7]

OP
Interesting post. I have found that much more then one ton of ammo per 5 LRM tubes is a waste. 1250m is fun and all, but worthless usually.
Thanks for posting.

[InspectorG]

pattonesque, on 02 March 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

yeah I've never understood this argument

If I hear "incoming missile" I tend to retreat to cover

If someone shoots me in the face with lasers or gauss or ACs, I tend to retreat to cover

the difference is that in the first instance I'm probably fine. In the second instance I've been wounded before keeping my head down

Ever been part of an organized push?

When its push time you dont run for cover. You push while focusing damage on the choice target and twist for defense.

Dakka and lasers dont need 1+ seconds jockeying for locks. That right there says it all.

[InspectorG]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

math stuffs

And here is the math that shows all you need is 2MPL to do better than over half your team!

[wanderer]

Quote

Dakka and lasers dont need 1+ seconds jockeying for locks. That right there says it all.

If you're not first in line, you're spending that long jockeying for position or longer. Meanwhile,the LRMs are firing.

Then once you're out of the line of fire, I'll put the direct-fire guns into it for good measure.

[InspectorG]

wanderer, on 02 March 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

If you're not first in line, you're spending that long jockeying for position or longer. Meanwhile,the LRMs are firing.

Then once you're out of the line of fire, I'll put the direct-fire guns into it for good measure.

Not first in line? Yeah, 1 second for your lock(if we have no ECM), 1+ for your flight time + any time you lost because we had initiative...plenty time for me to hit you and twist.

Now what about my 3 lance mates also burning a called target's ST off? Soon as they see the target they do damage. Your LRMs are still on cooldown or in the mail.

Ill bet your Lance loses ST's faster than mine. Those IS boats STD?

I guess thats why all those high level players using meta builds bring LRM10s as a backup/support weapon? You know, to hit the enemy as they go back to cover or to support teammates with 'indirect' fire.