248 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

You're talking about a choke point. That is, I don't have a target without another heap of metal between me and you because I'm not first in line. Strangely, I assume on an organized push that my team knows how to press R, and locking you doesn't require direct lines of fire. That whole "I shoot over people's heads" thing.

If we can fit through with every 'Mech at once, then it's not a choke point and yes, regular direct-fire > LRMs. If I have to draw a line of fire through my own team to shoot you, then LRMs > direct fire as last I checked, team damage rarely helps your own team and neither does dealing zero damage to the enemy.

If it's the reverse (you and your buddies firing into a choke point), then nobody's blocking anyone and direct fire > LRM for everyone. If only X number of people can fire directly into the choke point, then your X+1 having LRMs means you have that much more damage coming in.

And yes LRMs are not meta. They will never be meta, because anything that doesn't hit with 100% damage to whatever's under the crosshairs is garbage in the meta. The meta is about getting those sweet alpha strikes in so you can ignore 75%+ of your opponent's armor and structure and core them, because with perfect convergence weapons that's mathematically the only logical thing to do, even if better than half the weapons in the game are useless in that regard.

Bring more lasers/AC/UAC's if it's only going to be direct-fire confrontations with everyone having clear fire lanes. If you want to have something that can fire when there's terrain in the way (or other Mechs), that's the only point LRMs are going to be superior, because any damage > no damage.

[Idealsuspect]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

I solo drop PUG a lot in quick play, so...it varies? Some matches I get 400 or so damage, no kills, and only an assist or two. Most matches I get 2-3 kills most damage and 8-10 assists. I've gotten as high as 3 solo 5 KMD and 12 assists.

Varies with ?

Well 400 damage in solo queue it mean 2 kills minimum with any pinpoint or spread direct fire build. ( OK very rare time you will have zero becose someone will stole you but same amout of very rare time you will have 4 kills becose you did stole others ^^ ).
I know it i do it yesterday with a UAC5/srms timber kill 2 first guys of ennemy team in polar highland, asking between each kill if others teamates are playing....
Then when i died rest of team did win only becose other team was same kind bunch of players than my team ( very passiv and static team ).
Lrms in both team and specting our lrms guy was really .. like all time he miss all his lrms becose he lost target, why becose he was waiting that teamate spot for him also a bad lrms pilot.


In fact most of time since polar highland map release, i play only erll sniper in QP becose of "very passiv and static" teamates ever and ever.... and lrms guys are the most "very passiv and static" pilots.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 02 March 2016 - 03:42 PM.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

well then i guess if LRMs are not welcome in competitive and frowned upon by many, they should get a buff of some sort
flight speed, reduction of the missile warning, and slice the minimum range
i'll be only happy if i can employ my favorite weapon systems in a more effective way

but i can already forsee the lurmocalypse threads...

[Novakaine]

pwnface, on 02 March 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

T1 doesn't mean comp. Don't get it twisted.

Really?
So what does it mean are there anything T2-5 comp players?

[Bulletsponge0]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 02:08 AM, said:

Who cares that its 14 tons of ammo?

What matters is how much damage do I contribute to the team as well as everything else I'm contributing.

But this thread has made it clear why the perception about LRM's exists. So many people cannot see beyond how often they miss to how much good they're actually doing.

By the logic being displayed, the US military should do away with artillery, most of our bomb ordinance, machine guns, the A10 (that thing wastes so much ammo which means it sucks, right?) and so on...

LOL... you apparently are stuck in the 50's to late 70's when it comes to US military ordinance and weapons systems

[Novakaine]

Gorgo7, on 02 March 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

OP
Interesting post. I have found that much more then one ton of ammo per 5 LRM tubes is a waste. 1250m is fun and all, but worthless usually.
Thanks for posting.

Gorgy My Orion VA would disagree with you.
You know this.

[wanderer]

Heck, due to low velocity an LRM is effectively a 600m-ish weapon system, despite supposedly being useful to 1000m or beyond.

Less, actually if you want to really make every missile count. 400m or so.

Up the velocity, increases the accuracy and hence effective range. Tighten clusters (especially on abominably bad LRM 20s), LRMs deliver more effective hits.

Considering an LRM travels slower than every other projectile in the game (and at 1/4 the speed of a brawling range weapon like the AC/20, and Clantech Streaks are better than 25% faster) and scatters damage like rain, it's not like there isn't plenty of room for improvement.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Gorgo... you have no idea how fast some mechs chew through ammo

you nom nom all the missile cookies... and you have a dead launcher only good as a crit decoy - better keep that thing running non stop as long as the timer ticks

wanderer, on 02 March 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

Heck, due to low velocity an LRM is effectively a 600m-ish weapon system, despite supposedly being useful to 1000m or beyond.

Less, actually if you want to really make every missile count. 400m or so.

Up the velocity, increases the accuracy and hence effective range. Tighten clusters (especially on abominably bad LRM 20s), LRMs deliver more effective hits.

Considering an LRM travels slower than every other projectile in the game (and at 1/4 the speed of a brawling range weapon like the AC/20, and Clantech Streaks are better than 25% faster) and scatters damage like rain, it's not like there isn't plenty of room for improvement.

all of this
and the minimum range - because i CAN get to 300-400m for effective shots and tagging... but the moment he runs inside my min range - my LRMs are useless

that kind of forces me to stay further away than i'd often prefer and take wider routes

[DrxAbstract]

I'm sorry but the entire premise of this is based entirely upon the 'How smart is your opponent?' factor. Against your run of the mill casual warrior, they have proven mildly effective in the criteria you have outlined. Against battle-hardened warriors they are not effective. They rely heavily on drawing out the match for as long as possible in order to make any measure of contribution both in damage and strategic value.

4 LRM quirked missile platforms are not going to put out anywhere near the amount of damage as accurately and in as short a time span as Lasers, ACs, SRMs, etc. and that's really the heart of the entire argument against them: It's all about how a weapon performs in heavy combat against efficient and brutal opponents. When those demands are made, Lasers, ACs, SRMs etc can answer that call and perform phenomenally well under the most grueling of circumstances reliably... LRMs do not have that potential. Ton for ton, nearly every other weapon system can go from the most casual of games to the most hardcore of competitions and pull their weight day after day, fight after fight without relying on such a small window of circumstances only to provide a comparably abysmal return on investment... Which is where LRMs are currently at.

Yes, they can be handy in X scenarios at X times - So can nearly every other weapon and then some. I'd like to think this is more about you being able to use them if you want because you can and nobody should argue that... But don't try justifying it with nonsensical "what if" scenarios or convincing people that LRMs are truly effective weapons because they really arent.

[InspectorG]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

well then i guess if LRMs are not welcome in competitive and frowned upon by many, they should get a buff of some sort
flight speed, reduction of the missile warning, and slice the minimum range
i'll be only happy if i can employ my favorite weapon systems in a more effective way

but i can already forsee the lurmocalypse threads...

It's a big problem that not only spans the weapon's own characteristics but also the dynamic between radar, los, indirect fire, locks, terrain, as well as the problem of boating.

To 'fix' lrms would likely take a decent overhaul to play mechanics in general.

[wanderer]

That's the point. Direct fire robots are best as long as they have a line of fire.

Only if you can't get a clear fire line for all of your robots does an LRM have value, as it fires along a route other 'Mechs cannot, thereby putting more DPS on the target than would be doable otherwise. Take, say Caustic.

I'm on the opposite side of the volcano from the enemy, who happens to have NASCAR'd to hit the back of our group. I can:

1) Run back through my own people to get into firing position.
2) Shoot nothing because there's a volcano in the way
3) Have LRMs and begin firing immediately regardless by piggybacking off team locks as I get into position to fire other weapons.

#3 is the only case where I'm not doing nothing while the red team tries to BTFO our assault lance. In many cases, it can even be as simple as "enemy engaged on right side of hill, I'm on left", or "team is so tightly packed I can't fire lasers", or "my teams light is circling a target down in a canyon where I can't clear a shot without being drilled by the rest of the reds and cored". With LRMs, my contribution is never zero, even if I'd deal more damage with direct-fire weaponry given a chance to shoot them.

It's why I'd never suggest massed LRMs barring teams built around engaging from otherwise impossible firing positions. A missile boat is a specialist, and you need far more straightforwardly effective people on your team than specialists.

But again, that only applies to situations where I can't easily get direct lines of fire.

[Hydrocarbon]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

potential damage.

That's the only counter argument needed. Just like a small laser can potentially destroy an Atlas in one hit - if a certain sequence of events click into place (aka LUCK).

Math is great, but get into a private lobby & lob missiles at a laser 3H/4N or Misery. I'd be happy to oblige with the 2 later mechs. Reality > Theory.





Speaking of reality, in one CW match we SHUT DOWN a wave with 8 lurm boats with a single Hellbringer. Pure lolz as we charged nearly unabated while killing their direct fire mechs.

[DrxAbstract]

wanderer, on 02 March 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

That's the point. Direct fire robots are best as long as they have a line of fire.

Only if you can't get a clear fire line for all of your robots does an LRM have value, as it fires along a route other 'Mechs cannot, thereby putting more DPS on the target than would be doable otherwise. Take, say Caustic.

I'm on the opposite side of the volcano from the enemy, who happens to have NASCAR'd to hit the back of our group. I can:

1) Run back through my own people to get into firing position.
2) Shoot nothing because there's a volcano in the way
3) Have LRMs and begin firing immediately regardless by piggybacking off team locks as I get into position to fire other weapons.

#3 is the only case where I'm not doing nothing while the red team tries to BTFO our assault lance. In many cases, it can even be as simple as "enemy engaged on right side of hill, I'm on left", or "team is so tightly packed I can't fire lasers", or "my teams light is circling a target down in a canyon where I can't clear a shot without being drilled by the rest of the reds and cored". With LRMs, my contribution is never zero, even if I'd deal more damage with direct-fire weaponry given a chance to shoot them.

It's why I'd never suggest massed LRMs barring teams built around engaging from otherwise impossible firing positions. A missile boat is a specialist, and you need far more straightforwardly effective people on your team than specialists.

But again, that only applies to situations where I can't easily get direct lines of fire.

On Caustic... What about Tourmaline, Forest Colony, Frozen City, Mining Collective, River City and the rest of the LRM-unfriendly Maps? What happens when they have ECM? Or the smattering of AMS? They shoot down your team's UAVs as soon as they pop up? What if a rainbow unicorn shoots out my a** and nukes the entire map!

What if, what if... what if.

Stop trying to push on the pull door - Justifying LRM usage with 'math' and 'what if' scenarios is a fool's errand; They're a bad weapon. Use them or dont use them. Just please STAHP TRYING TO JUSTIFY IT.

[pattonesque]

InspectorG, on 02 March 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

Ever been part of an organized push?

When its push time you dont run for cover. You push while focusing damage on the choice target and twist for defense.

Dakka and lasers dont need 1+ seconds jockeying for locks. That right there says it all.

LRMs are terrible at both stopping and supporting pushes

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I came here for OPs math. Left disappointed.

[fbj]

I still think Lasers are better....

[Trauglodyte]

I need to equip more AC20-1/3rds

[GreenHell]

lol FBJ has spoken!

Seriously though I've only used chained LRM5's as a distraction weapon to cause vomit inducing amounts of screen shake. That's about it really. I've got a friend who does well in a LRM60 Mauler but at the same time he gets swarmed just as often. I will agree on chained LRM5's being usefull as distraction weapons. That's about it though.

[Zoid]

LRMs are a support weapon. I don't get all the hate. If used as a support weapon they are great. If used as a primary weapon they aren't. It's as simple as that.

You can either have a 'mech built with a rack or two to supplement your other guns or have a couple 'mechs on your team that are pure LRM boats. In a brawl, four brawlers with 2 LRM supports beats 6 brawlers most of the time.

[Novakaine]

Rocketeers let's leave it alone and walk like Eagles because..............