248 replies to this topic

[STEF_]

Xavori, on 02 March 2016 - 12:19 AM, said:

...and so on...all it takes is being open to the possibility and learning how to use your LRM's effectively.

I don't want to!
In your math, did u ver consider how many seconds are needed to hit (with spread dmg) a target standing at 800 metres?
speed 160 meters per second.
Do the math and discover why I prefer a gauss over a lrm15 even though it weights the double.

[Starwulfe]

Concerning suppression: direct fire does it as well. Even if you only score 1 dmg, they usually back off. and no lock on time.

Best place for LRM support: Right behind your front lines, pushing with them, sharing armor and maintaining the shortest distance possible and still be effective to minimize flight time. Shorter flight times helps minimize the effect of cover and radar dep.

For those comparing LRM damage at end of match vs direct fire you need to divide your final damage depending on play style because of the uncontrolled damage spread.
If using artemis/tag (and maintaining LOS): /3
If indirect: 5-7
Use n-1 (or 2) if your dropping with folks who can't aim very well.

[JigglyMoobs]

There's nothing wrong with bringing lrms for support. The wrong comes when half the team is "supporting", whole expecting the other half to press R for locks while they facetank enemy shots.

If you've got an Atlas or Dire, you better be supporting from the front because that direct fire Dire on Red is not "keeping people's heads down", hes blowing them clean off.

[pattonesque]

JigglyMoobs, on 03 March 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

There's nothing wrong with bringing lrms for support. The wrong comes when half the team is "supporting", whole expecting the other half to press R for locks while they facetank enemy shots.

If you've got an Atlas or Dire, you better be supporting from the front because that direct fire Dire on Red is not "keeping people's heads down", hes blowing them clean off.

see I think there's this consideration that "support" is an actual thing in this game

I'd prefer someone support me by shooting the enemy immediately with lots of direct damage weapons, you know?

[wanderer]

So, we're agreed that LRMs aren't a Real Man's Weapon?

Start buffing them. Immediately, since they're massively inferior.

No?

Stop making "LRMs suck" threads. Make "lasers, ACs, Gauss are the One True Weapon Group" threads so we can point out that being able to put all your damage on a single pixel breaks the damage model like being able to ez-mode headshots kills most first-person shooters.

Because that's the truth. Those weapons aren't rewarding "skill" so much as they're effectively reducing your target's lifespan by huge amounts vs. anything non-meta (that is, weapons that spread significant portions of damage on a hit). Which is over half the weapons in the game.

LRMs actually fit the damage modeling for Battletech, which in turn was based on a system where putting all of your guns into one spot was darn near impossible. (and even then, they're inferior to TT ones that hit in 5-point clusters, not individual scatter) and anything that allowed it was rapidly errata'd out of the rulebook as an error.

Take your average well armored 50-tonner (sans quirks). It has a maximum of 323 armor (assuming a modest 5 points of back armor per location) and 175 points of structure.

Spread-damage weapons are forced to sandblast this. Direct-fire weapons (optimally and assuming no crits) only need 91 damage for a CT core kill- less if it has an IS XL. That's 18% of the 'Mechs "hit points" for a kill. Not quite headshot level, but a CT shot is quite reasonably done. It's generally a big target that can reliably be aimed for in combat, literally center-of-mass shots.

Now when Mr. Laservomit needs 18% for a kill and Mr. Missile boat likely needs at least thrice that to do in a target, can we say that direct-fire right is just hitting it out of the park compared to everything else. And yes, not all your damage in direct-fire is magically hitting that weak spot- but the difference is still enormous. Let's even be charitable and say it's twice the damage for your average player's aim/defensive twisting, so you're dealing with 36% damage dealt vs. 54% or so.

Then let's add in equipment that degrades Missile Boat's accuracy further. ECM. Radar dep modules. Being able to duck behind cover before the slowest projectile in the game arrives. We'll even put in a system that degrades the already spread damage still further if you like in the form of AMS. Effectively, the efficiency difference in delivering damage yawns even wider, with Missile Boat having to be wickedly predictive of his shots to even come close to Direct Fire's accuracy. Heck, larger LRM launchers will even automatically -miss- with part of their damage, regardless of locks.

If there wasn't situations where direct-fire weapons can't fire, LRMs would have nothing whatsoever going for them in terms of use. Inferior damage distribution, unavoidable accuracy and damage reduction vs. direct-fire weaponry.

The hilarious part is despite all this, we regularly get QQ threads where we have to ask people where the big bad missile launcher touched them. We should be seeing "math" threads by torqued metagamers demanding more performance from poor weapon systems.

Instead, we got another thread with another tryhard poster popping in going on about how "LRMs suck, stop using them". Har-de-har.

Edited by wanderer, 03 March 2016 - 01:39 PM.

[Gorgo7]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 02 March 2016 - 11:32 PM, said:

whenever the commander decides to do that is the correct answer here i believe...

now, a little something



did this with http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e57215649e55413
mind you, getting 3 kills and 7 assists with this mech is not at all uncommon - and i get a decent amount of face time with it aswell due to the ridiculous durability this mech has... i dont straight out "tank" with it, but im not afraid to trade shots and melt face, even though its a little hot to do that for long

i call this one my "recreational" mech - its quite literally the mech i run if i want to chill and melt face in a extremely universal machine... it allows me to fire all match, swing missiles around a corner, stay with the team, do most of the assaulty things, humiliate LRM hunters, and have a cigarette and a coffee at the same time

problem with this is... try pulling this off with an IS mech
THE POWER DIFFERENCE IS BRUTAL AND RIDICULOUS
IS LRM are much better on paper - in practice any kind of a IS mech you try like this ends up a barely crawling ammo stockpile waiting to explode, with LESS damage on the LRMs and much more spread - calling it "less effective" is a joke at this point

if there is any instance where i can straight up say that Clan tech is overpowered as all hell to the point of tears... its here

OH MY GOD! LOOK AT THE LOADOUT!

[Malachy Karrde]

sycocys, on 03 March 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Quite often. Brawling the enemy isn't as scary as the turtle ball would make you think it is.

But in the case of dealing with LRMs, 99% of the time they aren't with the team or near enough for it to matter once I push. Especially the guys that want to fire off from 750m, they aren't going to be anywhere close enough their team can save them, and even if they have 1-2 for support I'm already close enough that I can completely ignore the LRMs and deal with their friends first - min range makes your mech completely useless. XD

that's more of a failure of the players than the equipment.

[wanderer]

Yeah. That half-tonnage on LRM launchers really shows here, doesn't it? I'd tweak it a bit, even though assault LRM boats generally feel far too slow for me...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...35e0ad0aad4e14c

This way, any LRM modules work for the entire loadout, it doesn't have ECM issues up close, and the pulse lasers get a bit more reach.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

wanderer, on 03 March 2016 - 03:02 PM, said:

Yeah. That half-tonnage on LRM launchers really shows here, doesn't it? I'd tweak it a bit, even though assault LRM boats generally feel far too slow for me...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...35e0ad0aad4e14c

This way, any LRM modules work for the entire loadout, it doesn't have ECM issues up close, and the pulse lasers get a bit more reach.

ill take a look at that

point i was trying to make - doing it on IS, its not nearly as effective

Edited by Thunderbird Anthares, 03 March 2016 - 03:37 PM.

[Malachy Karrde]

Clan is much more effective at the lrm game. Actually, in my own not so humble opinion, except for a couple mechs, clans are more effective across the board even without quirks. The sheer amount of firepower you can cram into an omni mech is just staggering compared to anything the is has of equal size. The archer may allow the is to have an effective lrm mech now...but I doubt it will be able to match the mad dog weapon for weapon.

[MischiefSC]

arivio, on 03 March 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

Fun fact: one Team try it against us in a scrim that used mrbcrules (drop3) on polar. They used two fast narcers and six LRMboats.
We used a Victor with longrange the rest was srmbombs. Do you know what happened to them? They only managed to kill one mech before we can jump in theire face. Every drop we only lost 1 Mech.
LRM's are bad as hell even on the "best" map for them.

Yep.

Competitive players will play what wins. If lrms were good they would see use in competitive play. They are not good so they don't. It's that simple.

[GreenHell]

Malachy Karrde, on 03 March 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

-snip- The archer may allow the is to have an effective lrm mech now...but I doubt it will be able to match the mad dog weapon for weapon.

Actually, I find that in order for an IS mech to build around the same loadout as clan they need about 10 extra tons on average, and the Archer falls right in line with that. Obviously we won't know until it comes out, but just food for thought.

[Malachy Karrde]

GreenHell, on 03 March 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

Actually, I find that in order for an IS mech to build around the same loadout as clan they need about 10 extra tons on average, and the Archer falls right in line with that. Obviously we won't know until it comes out, but just food for thought.

I'd agree with this.. unfortunately though they didn't make a 6 missile archer with 5 energy hard points lol... total ammunition reliant mech are always inferior to something that can carry a couple lasers to use when they run out of ammo or need to shoot something up close. Srms run dry on ammo too fast for my comfort.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

Posted Yesterday, 11:56 PM
http://www.twitch.tv...vier/v/31536528

gonna leave that right there....

Funny twitch vid but you'll forgive me for picking out the fact that the player started out with 2520 total missile and finished with 1205 for a whopping 343 damage. So, said player blew through 1315 potential damage only to do 26% of the possible damage and that was with a dedicated NARC carrier. Just saying, that was funny but not necessarily pretty or efficient.

LRM5 - 50.23%
LRM10 - 47.8%
LRM15 - 46.9%

LRM brawl or don't equip them!!!

Edited by Trauglodyte, 03 March 2016 - 04:37 PM.

[LORD ORION]

I have literally fired the LRM-15 1 million times (stat page)
LRM 15 508 1,026,520 337,316 32.86% 2 days 00:45:08 373,595

I came in 8th place in a faction tournament with the AWS-8R
https://mwomercs.com...t=201411faction

With authority I tell you you are wrong.
With authority I tell you that in a CW 12vs12 elite unit battle, my LRM hit rate approaches o%

[SQW]

arivio, on 03 March 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

Fun fact: one Team try it against us in a scrim that used mrbcrules (drop3) on polar. They used two fast narcers and six LRMboats.
We used a Victor with longrange the rest was srmbombs. Do you know what happened to them? They only managed to kill one mech before we can jump in theire face. Every drop we only lost 1 Mech.
LRM's are bad as hell even on the "best" map for them.

I can also give you an example where it went 12-1 to the team with the narc.

Seriously, did the other team raced TOWARDS your srm bombs? With a good scout screen and decent narc on the most dangerous mech on your team plus some back peddling, there's no way they only took down one of your team with 6 LRM boats in the time it took your heavies to walk from 800m to 300m.

2 nights ago, a mad dog and a catapult took down a narced KGC and TBR in under 20secs each in canyon.

[GreenHell]

Malachy Karrde, on 03 March 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

I'd agree with this.. unfortunately though they didn't make a 6 missile archer with 5 energy hard points lol... total ammunition reliant mech are always inferior to something that can carry a couple lasers to use when they run out of ammo or need to shoot something up close.

What do you mean? One of the Archers is coming with x6 Missile Hardpoints and x4 Energy Hardpoints, 1M & 1E per arm, 2M per Side Torso, and 2E in the Center Torso.

[Gyrok]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 03 March 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

ill take a look at that

point i was trying to make - doing it on IS, its not nearly as effective

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8662b0f7629d26c

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Gyrok, on 03 March 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8662b0f7629d26c

as a mech that is supposed to work comparable to the Clan 70 tube monster with 2 CLPLAS... you post this?

a 60 tube 4x LRM-15 with no TAG and less than half the ammo?

no wonder you think LRMs are crap

the LRM-15's with no TAG will spread damage all over the damn place, chew through their ammo fast enough to make fire support a rare option, especially with THAT fire rate quirk, and fast become 32 tons of dead weight
atleast the 2 LL's are something, even though comparing them to 2 CLPLAS is kind of pointless

edit:
just in case its not clear... the mech you posted is pretty much worse in every single way
and hey, STILL suffers from minimum range AND is slower - just in case you might forget that aswell

Edited by Thunderbird Anthares, 03 March 2016 - 11:14 PM.

[Vellron2005]

Oh look, another LRM thread..

Personally, I'm very PRO LRM, and every mech I field that can mount them usually does.

My favorite and almost most effective lrm mech used to be a Myst Lynx. Now the Little Fang's place has been taken by an Arctic Cheetah, with the exact same build, but with ECM..

And Yes, I use mechs like Timberwolf and Mad Dog to spam the shait out of LRM's onto the enemy.. do great in most matches.

Afterall, the 2xLRM20 + 5 CERMLAS Timberwolf is my most effective mech overall.. second only by my Executioner. (which also has 2xLRM10)