48 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 March 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

Where are you getting .9 more heat per shot? Sorry answered two different questions in head at same time.THE Below IS CORRECT:
8 * 0.8 = 6.4
2 * 3 = 6

Also, you forget cUAC2s have the same double tap potential as the UAC10s, so you may want to consider that in your calculations.

Nope. I was under the impression that the double got removed on cuac2s

[sycocys]

Lugh, on 03 March 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

There's a little bit too much pray in their spray. As can be seen with all the missing they do when you fight them.

Yeah you do have to have a very steady aim or good kill box for them to be regularly useful. I like them for maps like Polar or when we had Alpine with long sightlines. You could just expose enough to shoot as people approached and just lay down some nasty rate of fire. They're a fair counter to erLL on Boreal as well since you can shoot most of the max range at full dps with very little lost in damage output.

Otherwise I've drawn the same conclusion, less ac5/10 is simply more effective since you don't need to be faced up the entire time.

Edited by sycocys, 03 March 2016 - 11:14 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lugh, on 03 March 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

My experience has been that any c-uac is better than ac2 or cuac2.

Yes, but not because of raw DPS, but because the cUAC2s require more face time to exploit their better DPS.

That said, 4 cUAC2s with double tap can put out nearly the same amount of damage as 2 cUAC10s by the time you have double tapped with the 10s. I'd have to double check my math, but because the cUAC2 shoots 1 bullet per shot, you should be able to double tap with it twice in the time it took the cUAC10 to double tap once. The 2 cUAC2 does 20% less damage than the 10 in that time, and generates a little bit more heat, but does have a few advantages (more range, faster projectile).

Lugh, on 03 March 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Nope. I was under the impression that the double got removed on cuac2s

They are definitely able to double-tap, would remove the point in them being Ultra ACs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 March 2016 - 11:19 AM.

[Screech]

Mister Blastman, on 03 March 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

Face time is bad.

Pre nerfs and quirks it could be mitigated by range. Remember often trading with assaults at 800+ in an 4x2AC jager and never coming up on the short end. But those days got burned to the ground for some reason I never really got.

[LordNothing]

they really need to do something about ultra 2s to get their dps up. i wouldnt mind just firing 1 damage shells at a little more twice the rate of the is ac2 (say every 0.3 seconds). no double tap, but with a small jam chance (<= 10%) per round, the jam would clear in about 1 second. the ultra ac2 really fires too fast for the standard uac mechanic to make sense.

yes, im looking for any excuse to have a continuous rapid fire ballistic that is not a machine gun.

i ran some numbers, if you fire with double taps, you will only be doing about 1.4-1.6 dps if you account for jam time. this actually makes the cac2 better than the cuac2. at the very least bring jam time down to less than 2 seconds for the uac2

Edited by LordNothing, 03 March 2016 - 01:07 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 March 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

4 UAC2s actually out DPS 2 UAC10s iirc, they just require more face time to do it.

On paper. IIRC, Solahma went and ran some tests, discovering that over time C-UAC/2 actually have worse DPS when double-tapping than when simply holding the trigger down for normal fire rate. So, that puts it all up to RNGesus extra hard whether you can pull off a face-tank with C-UAC/2.

All of the other UACs/C-UACs had greater DPS over time when double-tapping.

[Revis Volek]

sycocys, on 03 March 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

IIRC ultra 2's have lower dps than standard ac2s.

Think my dakka whale uses 3 5's, a 10, and a 20. It's just silly to watch mechs turn a corner into that.

I run 3 5's and a 20 as well...


Its soooo mean! 5's do the dirty work the 20 drops them.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

i got one of these...

are they effective?
hell, i dont care, its fun to use - and its a Clan mech so i cant really use it for anything useful anyway

but it does have pretty damn good DPS at mid-long range, and people tend to run away from it... and thats all i need from a fun build

[Nauht]

I saw one of these DW in game the other night.

Outsniped and cored him with my PPC, 2xAC5 MAD. He was spraying all over with his metal diarrhea while I kept putting the PPFLD on his CT.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Nauht, on 03 March 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

I saw one of these DW in game the other night.

Outsniped and cored him with my PPC, 2xAC5 MAD. He was spraying all over with his metal diarrhea while I kept putting the PPFLD on his CT.

aiming is OP

[LordNothing]

its the 5 second jam time that kills it. that might work for 5s, 10s, and 20s, but it kills the 2. at least cut it to 2-3 seconds.

or use the continuous fire low jam cost mechanic i discribed above.

[Hit the Deck]

Revis Volek, on 03 March 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

I run 3 5's and a 20 as well...


Its soooo mean! 5's do the dirty work the 20 drops them.

Why not 2UAC/10 in place of a single UAC/20? The Whale can still carry them with enough ammo.

DWF-PRIME

You need to baby that ammo arm, though.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 03 March 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

On paper. IIRC, Solahma went and ran some tests, discovering that over time C-UAC/2 actually have worse DPS when double-tapping than when simply holding the trigger down for normal fire rate. So, that puts it all up to RNGesus extra hard whether you can pull off a face-tank with C-UAC/2.

All of the other UACs/C-UACs had greater DPS over time when double-tapping.

How long did it take for the DPS to tank though, because you aren't going to be able to just stand there and plink away? I wouldn't be against jam times being adjusted by class, just asking.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 03 March 2016 - 04:46 PM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

All I can think of is...damn, that jams a lot :/

While you're at it you might as well use the LB2-X ACs for the DWF. At least that thing can't jam, and it actually has a cooldown module...

[ilikerice]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 03 March 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

All I can think of is...damn, that jams a lot :/

While you're at it you might as well use the LB2-X ACs for the DWF. At least that thing can't jam, and it actually has a cooldown module...

Fox is 100% right

Dps wise for 2's is in this order

LB2-X because of cooldown module

Regular Clan AC2

And lastly CUAC2 becauce of the jam chance

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 03 March 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

How long did it take for the DPS to tank though, because you aren't going to be able to just stand there and plink away? I wouldn't be against jam times being adjusted by class, just asking.

Here's the thread.

It was an average taken over 20 minutes of firing a single UAC as fast as it could with a macro, with between 3 and 5 repetitions for each weapon. The C-UAC/2 dropped in DPS by 3% versus a normal AC/2 rate of fire.

3% doesn't seem like much, but we all know how rough performance curves look when you narrow the focus.

And yes, LB-2X. Unfortunately, they still spread enough to be sucky even as AC/2s go. I take a pair on my SCat for lulz because they sound cool, but...well...yeah.

[Trauglodyte]

The problem with the 2s, beyond just the fact time, is that it is really hard to double tap due to their speed. That is especially true if you're running a mech that gets a ballistic cool down modifier. You have a 0.6s between refire in which you have to double tap. That isn't really friendly.

[LordNothing]

way i figure it you have a 14% chance of jam. that means after a little more than 7 taps, a jam is statistically certain. thats 8 if you count the first shot, or 16 damage. you then have to wait 5 seconds to unjam. thats worse than the cd of an ac20, but without equivalent damage. and that doesn't even include the time it takes you to pop off 8 shots.

Trauglodyte, on 03 March 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

The problem with the 2s, beyond just the fact time, is that it is really hard to double tap due to their speed. That is especially true if you're running a mech that gets a ballistic cool down modifier. You have a 0.6s between refire in which you have to double tap. That isn't really friendly.

its really a knuckle grinder. the uac2 does not get the arthritis seal of approval. it needs a different mechanic than the other ultras.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 March 2016 - 11:45 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

LordNothing, on 03 March 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

way i figure it you have a 14% chance of jam. that means after a little more than 7 taps, a jam is statistically certain....

After X number of taps, your chance to jam is still 14% because each event is independent of the others.

[Zuesacoatl]

Lugh, on 03 March 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

Straight from Smurphy's AC/2 2.00 0.80 0.72 720 1,440 1 6.0 2,000 75 2.78 2.50 0.46 1.11 0.038
10.00
C-ULTRA AC/10 10.00 3.00 2.50 540 1,080 4 10.0 950 60 4.00 3.33 0.40 1.20 0.040 10.00
While you are mostly correct it stating that you'd have the higher on paper dps. 2.78 x 8 = 22.24

The double tapping potential for the two uac 10s is similiar 4x2 x2 or 16. So your dps best case is only 6.24 better on the ac2s you are running hotter, and need longer face time. And by hotter I mean at .9 heat per shot you've got your wad shot in 4? maybe 5 ? seconds.

But whatever makes you happy.

You are correct on this, but, if you are in a team that knows what they are doing, the face time is doable without being punished because now you have a team that knows how to support that kind of Dakka. I love this build myself when I am group dropping, not saying it is better than the ac10s, but watching peeps twist side to side like a mech version of stevie wonder because the amount of pings they hear on their mech is hilarious. Coupled with a group that knows how to focus with you, and you just melt face every time, but, you have to have the right conditions to use it in for sure.