45 replies to this topic

[Tyler Valentine]

El Bandito, on 03 March 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Quirks do not make the weapon. Otherwise, we would think PPCs are good weapon just cause some mechs have 50% velocity quirks of it. Quirkless, it is pretty meh.

? but it has quirks... making it a lethal IS LRM boat. We can't just pretend like quirks don't exist when we're having these discussions.

[Lostdragon]

I wish your LRMs could be guided by the player if you don't have a lock. By that I mean they follow your cursor instead of just streaming into the spot where your cursor was when you fired. I also wish LRMS in flight could be redirected to a new target if you lose the original lock but got a new lock before they smash uselessly into the ground. These two things would go a long way toward making LRMs more viable.

[Pjwned]

Tyler Valentine, on 04 March 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

? but it has quirks... making it a lethal IS LRM boat. We can't just pretend like quirks don't exist when we're having these discussions.

That doesn't mean quirks are a barrier to making changes (especially when said quirks can and should be removed or toned down very drastically) unless you're a raving clan apologist.

[InspectorG]

Roadkill, on 03 March 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

Unquirked Clan LRMs are better than unquirked IS LRMs. Proper design would balance the weapons first, then and ONLY then use quirks to balance the chassis.

Sorry, bro. First you have to balance(re-purpose at this point) the whole Radar/Indirect/Direct fire system because they based the weapons on BT but use a target acquisition system for a FPS.

Then the crit system needs re-worked. LRMs lose value there.

Then the matter of boating, due to how MWO favors outright damage over objectives.

The biggest problem with LRMs is efficiency. Any weapon system that doesnt hurt the enemy first with minimal facetime which spreads damage over the least area with the fewest conditions to fire is gonna be less efficient than any weapon that needs any less criteria just to even fire. Sorry. Just how it is.

Is has better LRMs not due to ammo but spread. See the above comment about damage over area. Clans get more missiles per ton, but those are less efficient missiles per ton in the first place: spread and stream - damage spread over area AND time.

IMO, LRMs need a better dummy fire system and really should be fired optimally from the 'B' map. Area denial, not 'Suppression'. There is already direct fire suppression, why add a worse variant?

[Necromantion]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 03 March 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

"Original post"

To be honest I see a few big issues with your post OP.

1) Clan LRM's are more susceptible to being destroyed by AMS due to their streamed mechanic

2) Quirked IS mechs make much better LRM platforms due to reduced cooldown times

3) You do know that Clan lrms loose damage under 180m exponentially and really at that range if you dont have backup weapons to use if youre dropping solo without a spotter and support youre doing it wrong. Also positioning is key as an LRM build to make sure youve got your team between you and the other team and are at an optimal location to not have the flight path of your LRMS disrupted as well.

I have honestly had higher scoring matches in IS LRM builds consistently. There are advantages and disadvantages to each factions LRM mechanic implementations but not to the discrepancy you feel, I am really questioning how much experience you have with this from both sides of the table.

Tyler Valentine, on 04 March 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

? but it has quirks... making it a lethal IS LRM boat. We can't just pretend like quirks don't exist when we're having these discussions.

Its the only way IS diehards can attempt to say Clans are stupidly OP now... lol

[Tyler Valentine]

Pjwned, on 04 March 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

That doesn't mean quirks are a barrier to making changes (especially when said quirks can and should be removed or toned down very drastically) unless you're a raving clan apologist.

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I seriously don't understand the point you are making.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

question what you want, freedom of speech
i'd still like to stop getting constantly insulted for even daring to use missiles though - which my OP was a very long winded and elaborate way of saying so

so, at this point, maybe it would be more conductive to the topic if instead of only questioning my experience you would compare the two and point out the experience you have
im not claiming im infallible, ofcourse the post was from my perspective, its impossible to do it otherwise - so different perspectives are welcome

[Xavori]

I think the only change that really needs to be made is the incoming missile warning.

1. Limit it to AMS equipped mechs only.
2. Limit the range to match AMS range (so if you quirk or module buff your AMS, you get more range on the warning)

[Pjwned]

Tyler Valentine, on 04 March 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I seriously don't understand the point you are making.

When talking about improving a weapon system it's rather lame to have people pointing out quirks as an argument against it.

[Tyler Valentine]

Pjwned, on 04 March 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

When talking about improving a weapon system it's rather lame to have people pointing out quirks as an argument against it.

I wasn't talking about changing a weapon system, I was saying that the Awesome 8R is an excellent missile boat as a counterpoint to the OP. You can't ignore the fact that the 8R, and many other 'mechs, have quirks when complaining that in current game play Clan LRMs are OP.

Sounds like you confused me with someone else.

[cazidin]

Just a side note here. How large of a c-bill boost will it have to be for people to actually start and equip AMS on their mechs? I'm thinking 1-2k would be a nice boost but is it worth the trade-off instead of having more firepower or heat sinks?

[Pjwned]

Tyler Valentine, on 04 March 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

I wasn't talking about changing a weapon system, I was saying that the Awesome 8R is an excellent missile boat as a counterpoint to the OP. You can't ignore the fact that the 8R, and many other 'mechs, have quirks when complaining that in current game play Clan LRMs are OP.

Sounds like you confused me with someone else.

You were replying directly to a comment about how quirks don't make a weapon good, so...

Edited by Pjwned, 04 March 2016 - 04:09 PM.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

10 bucks per destroyed missile?

Awesome 8R (and Mauler 1R) is quirked for LRM 15, which not only consume ammo like cookies, but also have an inherent spread - personally i got better results with LRM 10 than 15 and even better with LRM 5 as far as damage per area goes

After spending some time trying to make 15's work on a Mauler due to inherent ammo problems (and the fact that it tends to spontaneously explode and is painfully slow), i just went down to 10's but still couldnt get that TAG viably in due to limited energy slots... and i redesigned my Stalker 5M for LRM 5's - i was surprised HOW well 5's worked in terms of "ammo on target location" compared to the bigger ones... not nearly as high damage numbers but almost every missile landed in a good place on the target mech... and that finally allowed me to carry decent "danger close" weapons

IS LRM 15 and 20 seems pretty much dependent on target marking to be effective - Clan LRM launchers simply dont have that problem, or not as pronounced... they are also smaller and lighter (6 slots/11 tons compared to 5 slots/6 tons) - these factors simplify the whole deal quite a lot
you can not only load up more of them on a Clan mech, but you can also much easier do that carrying respectable direct fire armaments

C-LRM also effectively dont have a minimum range, and their minimum effective for self defense is much, much shorter than IS "hard minimum" - also a great factor in deciding whenever to get face time or not on the field

quirks or no quirks, the weapon system needs to be equally viable without them - because not all mechs that have missile slots also have appropriate quirks for them - they should be the value on top, not the balancing factor

LRM balancing is not really any one specific problem with them... its multiple problems stacking up

im repeating myself again am i... ill go take a break

[Icy Manipulator]

I think in a game where the objective is to click on enemies, you shouldn't have a " competitive " or "viable" option with a weapon system that doesn't require ANY hand eye dexterity.

In short, **** LRMs the ultimate noob weapon. Nerf them more I say. I log off MWO half the time out of frustration because I took damage from someone who didn't even have to aim, don't even get me started on these new LRM friendly maps.

[Lynx7725]

Lostdragon, on 04 March 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

I wish your LRMs could be guided by the player if you don't have a lock. By that I mean they follow your cursor instead of just streaming into the spot where your cursor was when you fired. I also wish LRMS in flight could be redirected to a new target if you lose the original lock but got a new lock before they smash uselessly into the ground. These two things would go a long way toward making LRMs more viable.

So, you want me to stand in place to do Etch-a-Sketch for the WHOLE duration of the flight, potentially unable to utilize any additional weaponry that I may have, potentially not able to move for practical purposes, for a somewhat dubious functionality? And you consider that "more viable"? Really?

Also, for info, if you reacquire the original target while missiles were in flight, and you have not switched targets in the interim, all in-flight missiles will reacquire and immediately re-home to target. For long range fighting that's really useful, but in medium to short range the turning circle of a LRM makes this not so great.

[Lynx7725]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 03 March 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Its been bothering me for quite some time how easy it is to make a "great" C-LRM boat, but how difficult are IS LRM boats in comparison.
[..]
Something should be done to make IS LRM comparable to C-LRM - so they can enjoy the same ability to directly support their team instead of being screamed out of the field. Most notably the spread and minimum range. A direct fire ability (with Artemis at least) should be possible.

My question is why would you want to make them comparable? They can be different weapons systems sharing a common ancestry. They can have different utility.

In a sense this is a bigger case of IS ACs vs. Clan ACs. The difference in mechanisms prompt different usage patterns. Why do you want them to be the same?

FWIW I ran two Clan LRM boats for a bit. A Vulture (CLRM50) and a Orion IIC (CLRM.. 50 I think?). The Vulture was fine, even though I was using it with IS tactics. A different beast, considering it can't quite take the damage I'm used to in my IS LRM boat -- I had to adapt to a sneakier approach.

The Orion IIC didn't work out so hot. The differences in launcher stats really showed up for this chassis and I ended up tearing it down and rebuilding it as a brawler with LRM support. That worked better for that particular chassis.

[Wolfways]

Icy Manipulator, on 30 March 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

I think in a game where the objective is to click on enemies, you shouldn't have a " competitive " or "viable" option with a weapon system that doesn't require ANY hand eye dexterity.

In short, **** LRMs the ultimate noob weapon. Nerf them more I say. I log off MWO half the time out of frustration because I took damage from someone who didn't even have to aim, don't even get me started on these new LRM friendly maps.

If you think the only objective is to click on enemies then the thing that isn't competitive or viable is you.
It sucks to be new but over time you will learn to use the cover available on all maps so that LRM's will be almost irrelevant... even on both "LRM friendly" maps (Alpine and Polar).

[Damia Savon]

Tyler Valentine, on 04 March 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

? but it has quirks... making it a lethal IS LRM boat. We can't just pretend like quirks don't exist when we're having these discussions.

Quirks can vanish in an instant though. You also have less need for them if the base weapon is good.

[Damia Savon]

Icy Manipulator, on 30 March 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

I think in a game where the objective is to click on enemies, you shouldn't have a " competitive " or "viable" option with a weapon system that doesn't require ANY hand eye dexterity.

In short, **** LRMs the ultimate noob weapon. Nerf them more I say. I log off MWO half the time out of frustration because I took damage from someone who didn't even have to aim, don't even get me started on these new LRM friendly maps.

Stop being a wimpy cod *****. You have no clue what you are talking about.

[mogs01gt]

peole are still talking about LRMs?I havent seen anyone do well in an LRM boat in a while without every other piece of equipment(tag, uav, spotters) helping them out. Yeah I can dish out 400dmg but get no kills because it spreads!

Finally died to LRMs last night when my dumb *** walk below a UAV and of course I couldnt shoot it do to my mech's design......thanks PGI!

Icy Manipulator, on 30 March 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

I think in a game where the objective is to click on enemies, you shouldn't have a " competitive " or "viable" option with a weapon system that doesn't require ANY hand eye dexterity.
In short, **** LRMs the ultimate noob weapon. Nerf them more I say. I log off MWO half the time out of frustration because I took damage from someone who didn't even have to aim, don't even get me started on these new LRM friendly maps.

You do know you are playing Mech Warrior and not COD right?

Edited by mogs01gt, 30 March 2016 - 05:49 AM.