119 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Lostdragon, on 04 March 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

Here is a video of a match with Sader on my team where I am running an LRM WHK on PH. We had several LRM mechs on our team and we won pretty handily. I believe Lucy was running an SRM HBK IIC and got most of the kills. The LRMs opened the enemies up and SRMs finished them off.


https://youtu.be/EqytdpENjfU

That's also called a good rounded force composition. Using lurms to batter and take down armor while enemy's close, then letting the close range weapons chew them up.

lurms are more of a tactical weapon as opposed to "damage' weapon. They're used (at least by an experienced pilot) as denial weapons, herding enemy forces, locating mechs through ams fire, etc.

On a team of 12, if you have 2-3 decent lurm boats, you're going to give the other team headaches if your team is decently coordinated because in order to close on those lurmn boats you're going to have to fight through a bunch of mechs that aren't carrying lurms.

I've literally seen teams moan and groan about lurms when they were only facing off against 2 mechs carrying 4-6 tubes between them. It was just a matter of cycling targets, firing in chain, and keeping a steady stream going. The other team just assumed there were tons of lurms.

It's great that lurms are a viable weapon just like the other weapon systems in this game. They're also the only weapon in the game that has direct and specific hard counters to it. ECM and AMS
1 good ecm pilot and a few AMS will really ruin a lurm boats day many times.

Unless that lurm boat is actually supported by a team that understands that.

[Amsro]

difference between tier 5 and tier 1


Experience.

[Wintersdark]

Sandpit, on 04 March 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

All I'm going to say on this one?

Sader you're just looking and sounding kinda salty that you got beat by a weapon you personally feel is "inferior". You also make a lot of assumptions in regards to the other team's skill level, what if scenarios on different maps, etc.

You guys made some really poor decisions. There were only (what appeared to be) 4 lurm mechs and they were spread out. Basically you got with your pants down and didn't react very well to it lol

This is basically were I was coming from with my earlier "douchey" comment.

In the VOIP in that video, there's a lot of pretty salty talk, disparaging talk (low skill players, "is this the way you want the game to be?" etc) All I could see was a fairly balanced force (4-5 mechs with LRM's, not necessarily "LRM boats") using the weapons they brought effectively. Given that, the comments by Sader seem pretty sour and salty. I mean, if I posted a video of my team getting ravaged by lasers while I stood in the distance and marvelled at the light show, then complained about how laser boats are low-skill meta-******, he'd be right at the front of the line to tell me off about it.

Basically: The video was fine, it's the commentary that sours it.

Quote

That means they had 8 other mechs not carrying lurms. That's a well-balanced force composition more than anything else. That's what mechs and mech forces are supposed to look like, not all boating 1-2 weapons and playing according to their alpha damage

It's exactly what needs to happen. You guys brought zero counters to a good balanced force that took advantage of the fact that you guys weren't prepared.

Honestly, you guys just sound really salty that you got beat by lurms in my opinion

And this is it.

I want to see an MWO where having a few mechs with LRM's is a successful strategy. Not all of them; just some. And it certainly can be, if those LRM's are used successfully.

GRiPSViGiL, on 04 March 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

Pit any two comp teams together one optimized for LRMs and the other only PPFLD. Guess which one will win? Heck even two semi-competent teams outcome would be similar.

Not seeing the relevance, really - this is a discussion about LRM's in the solo queue. Comp play is a very small part of the game. If LRM's are decently usable at all levels of solo play, then that's a good thing.

It's also not about a team optimized for LRM's, it's a team with LRM support. Even then, I'd like to see and MWO where even in comp play having LRM support is valuable.

[Felicitatem Parco]

You're not allowed to complain about LRMs unless you bring AMS regularly into combat. After your first 15-20 consecutive drops with AMS + at least 1 ton if ammo, then you have the right to issue complaints about LRM effectiveness or the effect of multiple enemy LRM boats.

However, people will always complain if someone brings LRMs at all. They are always considered too bad/OP/UP/noob-no skill weapons. If you do well with them, it's because you have no skill and relied on the weapon's OP characteristics. If you do poorly, it's because you brought a weapon with poor characteristics. Same weapon, mind you.

Yes, LRMs are situational and I find myself often regretting bringing them as a primary weapon when I do... Other times I wreck face with them. It is largely dependent on the Map and your team's loadout composition. Have friendlies with NARC and a frontal brawl group? You might have a great time with LRMs because you can support ALL your brawlers, even the ones you cannot provide LOS support for.

THAT is what LRM "boats" are meant for - supporting ALL your brawlers when you can't see all of them due to terrain blockage. A boat full of LRMs cannot be two places at once, but they can provide support to two + lines of fire at once even if those lines are visibly/physically obstructed.

My advice is to push with your LRMs as if you were a direct fire mech. That keeps you in the action, keeps the enemy close enough to let your missiles hit reliably, and you can shoot at almost any enemy that's already being shot at, regardless if you are there or not. Armchair LRM boats are less effective than ground-pounding LRM boats.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Wintersdark, on 04 March 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

Not seeing the relevance, really - this is a discussion about LRM's in the solo queue. Comp play is a very small part of the game. If LRM's are decently usable at all levels of solo play, then that's a good thing.

It's also not about a team optimized for LRM's, it's a team with LRM support. Even then, I'd like to see and MWO where even in comp play having LRM support is valuable.

It is relevant...Solo queue loses the team concept and communication is often rarely used. If someone communicated what needed done I don't think they would have lost to LRMs.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 04 March 2016 - 11:21 AM.

[Sandpit]

GRiPSViGiL, on 04 March 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

It is relevant...Solo queue loses the team concept and communication is often rarely used. If someone communicated what needed done I don't think they would have lost to LRMs.

uhm
you're exactly right

that's also the case with every match regardless of the enemy force composition. If you use teamwork to counter, you win more often than you lose.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Sandpit, on 04 March 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

uhm
you're exactly right

that's also the case with every match regardless of the enemy force composition. If you use teamwork to counter, you win more often than you lose.

I wouldn't consider them viable or effective if the environment for them to be useful required little to no communication on the opposing teams side.

[Lostdragon]

GRiPSViGiL, on 04 March 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

It is relevant...Solo queue loses the team concept and communication is often rarely used. If someone communicated what needed done I don't think they would have lost to LRMs.

One thing about the video that I posted, you can'take hear what I am saying. For some reason Shadowplay isn't picking up my mic and I have just not bothered to try to fix it. I was calling out LRM targets and we had pretty good coordination on focusing fire from the lurmers, which is quite devestating, especially with our brawlers swooping in to finish them off.

[SplashDown]

that video just makes me want to be able to fit more ams and for the game to intro laser ams.....mechs should def be allowed to fit as many ams as they want.

[Wintersdark]

GRiPSViGiL, on 04 March 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

It is relevant...Solo queue loses the team concept and communication is often rarely used. If someone communicated what needed done I don't think they would have lost to LRMs even in just a support role.

Maybe, but we won't know that will we?

They lost because they were outplayed. That's why. What they were outplayed with isn't really important.

You can ALWAYS make that argument when you lose a solo queue match "Well, if someone had communicated what needed to be done and we'd coordinated, we'd have won!" But you didn't.

[Sandpit]

Wintersdark, on 04 March 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

I want to see an MWO where having a few mechs with LRM's is a successful strategy. Not all of them; just some. And it certainly can be, if those LRM's are used successfully.

exactly
2-3 decent lurm boat pilots along with 2-3 harassers/scouts, 2-3 brawlers in a competent team's hands is going to be much deadlier and more well-rounded than a team composed of boating 1-2 weapon systems and niche builds.

What we're starting to see are lurms becoming just as viable as other weapon systems and that's a good thing. With the upcoming heat system change and mode changes I think, hopefully anyhow, we're going to see a huge shift from the meta conformity which, again, is a good thing in my opinion.

Anything that drives players to take more well-rounded builds is a good thing

[Sandpit]

GRiPSViGiL, on 04 March 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

I wouldn't consider them viable or effective if the environment for them to be useful required little to no communication on the opposing teams side.

again, you're right

and again, you just described every mech, build, and weapon in the game.

lurms above every other weapon in the game requires teamwork to use effectively and are actually a much more complex weapon system to use EFFECTIVELY. ANybody can drop lurms in a mech and blindly launch lurms everyime they see a blip on the screen.

As with any other weapon though, it requires a lot more thinking and finesse to use effectively and to their full potential. I can consistently break 600 damage (and yes, I play against Tier 1 in group and solo) on an assault lurm boat. If that were done with any other weapon system I'd get a pat on the back from teammates. In the case of lurms though, the "elite" in this game seem to think it's a bad thing.

[wanderer]

Polar is a best case scenario, especially as shown there where you can minimize exposure thanks to NARC-podding the target.

LRMs are usually best used sparingly and are usually better at just keeping a flow of fire going around the field- a salvo here to slap a sniper into keeping their heads down, another there to double-team the guy brawling your friend on the other side of a hill, a few more to chew up a light's legs that's evading most of your guy's fire but can't dodge yours, and so on.

I'm used to games with 10+ assists where I've ended up crippling targets but the spread damage of LRMs usually means someone else killshots (though it make KMDD's common). It's only on fields like Polar/Alpine/Caustic/Canyon where you can really cut loose and bludgeon targets to death, including massed LRM flights.

And games with T1s really usually aren't all T1s- they're T1-T3s, myself included. Not to mention that PSR is a joke for actual skill rating at this point, since all but the truly most hopeless end up going up ranks over time, regardless of actual improvement. The second they hit T3, they're mixed right in with the potential "best".

[Sandpit]

SplashDown, on 04 March 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

that video just makes me want to be able to fit more ams and for the game to intro laser ams.....mechs should def be allowed to fit as many ams as they want.

That's a good thing. AMS should be a tactical consideration for players whne building a mech. It shouldn't be a "Eh, lurms are useless so there's no need for me ton invest that tonnage into an AMS system"

wanderer, on 04 March 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

Polar is a best case scenario, especially as shown there where you can minimize exposure thanks to NARC-podding the target.

LRMs are usually best used sparingly and are usually better at just keeping a flow of fire going around the field- a salvo here to slap a sniper into keeping their heads down, another there to double-team the guy brawling your friend on the other side of a hill, a few more to chew up a light's legs that's evading most of your guy's fire but can't dodge yours, and so on.

I'm used to games with 10+ assists where I've ended up crippling targets but the spread damage of LRMs usually means someone else killshots (though it make KMDD's common). It's only on fields like Polar/Alpine/Caustic/Canyon where you can really cut loose and bludgeon targets to death, including massed LRM flights.

And games with T1s really usually aren't all T1s- they're T1-T3s, myself included. Not to mention that PSR is a joke for actual skill rating at this point, since all but the truly most hopeless end up going up ranks over time, regardless of actual improvement. The second they hit T3, they're mixed right in with the potential "best".

what you just described is a support weapon
which is exactly what lurms are

[Mystere]

Sader325, on 03 March 2016 - 08:24 PM, said:

These guys essentially got lucky, the planets aligned and everything set up for a truly glorious LRM game.

That being said, it probably took them well over 500 games to finally have one truly great LRM match, because on the whole that weapon system is extremly ineffective most of the time. And an LRM team is more often than not doomed to failure.

Your gross exaggeration is leaking the huge amount of salt stored within you.

[Mystere]

Excessive Paranoia, on 03 March 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

And here I was hoping that I'd finally get away from that horror when I tick over to T1 soon...

What horror are you referring to, that tiers actually mean nothing with regard to skill?

[wanderer]

Quote

what you just described is a support weapon
which is exactly what lurms are

Eeyup. "Support" doesn't equal "hold locks plz" while firing at extreme ranges, though- or rather, that's not doing nearly all of your job. Your job is to bollix up the enemy team. Killing them is often merely a pleasant side effect.

[Sandpit]

wanderer, on 04 March 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

Eeyup. "Support" doesn't equal "hold locks plz" while firing at extreme ranges, though- or rather, that's not doing nearly all of your job. Your job is to bollix up the enemy team. Killing them is often merely a pleasant side effect.

I never said or implied otherwise

[wanderer]

Nor did I. However, we have plenty of people here who are unclear on it, if the salt and general missile tactics you see from the average PUG player are any indications.

[Sandpit]

wanderer, on 04 March 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

Nor did I. However, we have plenty of people here who are unclear on it, if the salt and general missile tactics you see from the average PUG player are any indications.

trust me I know

lurms are a lot more complex than some want to give them credit for simply because they have an indirect fire mechanic