416 replies to this topic

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

dont care about that stuff folks.
The real fun in this game is to test things out by yourself
and piloting/mastering (even when skill revamp has arrived) as many mechs as possible.
You wont get good because of a to-do-Tier-List
and you wont have fun because of playing 5 blueprint mechs exclusively.
This game has so much to offer
so dont get yourself trapped into a 6 months journey to neverreturnvana.
sincerly a guy playing since 4 1/2 years who is still mastering mechs (even the crappy ones)

[Jarl Dane]

SHRedo, on 26 December 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

..verbal diarrhea..

The first, and easiest, step towards being better than your opponent is being in the best mech possible. MWO is not a dream, it is not a subjective realm where opinions hold as much sway as facts. It is a hard coded reality where numbers rule and have the ultimate say.

You see this game, the one we're playing, can be lost off the battle field as well as inside it. This isn't even a casual problem, you'll see in competitive matches one team win it because of choices they made in the Mech Lab. Pretending like not trying, or making stupid or uninformed decisions in the Mech Bay is somehow different than griefing your team in a match - is an exercise in fantasy.

There are mechs and builds that are mathematically superior. If you want to win, if you want to prevail, then your best bet is to run these mechs. Winning is fun, success is exciting, victory is addictive.

If instead of being a team player and learning what is best and using what is best to help yourself out and your team - if you instead you want to run LOL builds and lore builds and other broken mechs that doom yourself and your team to failure. Then please join Steiner or Davion and help them achieve that .60 Win/Loss Ratio.

But if you want to be more than a skill-less doormat for the Clans. Follow me and we'll get **** done.

[Sjorpha]

Tarogato, on 24 December 2016 - 11:26 PM, said:

I just bought Warhammers. I haven't finished leveling them, so I'll reserve final judgement for later, but just based on my experiences with it so far, I'm failing to understand what is so great about it.


...

What the warhammer has over the GHR-5H would be a more compact profile and side torso structure quirks for tankiness, the 5H has no ST quirks. And range quirk. It also runs 2 more heatsinks. I have very good impressions with it and my build is 3LPL + 2MPL, so more about running cool and having a low duration snappy alpha than going as big as possible. Also the complete alpha on the warhammer sits higher than on the grasshopper when all the lasers are in the torso. And it sidepokes better with the 3LPL on one side. So there are a few reasons why some may prefer it.

I still agree the Grasshopper is a stronger mech though, and there are also two additional reasons why a "stormtrooper" deck should run grasshoppers rather than warhammers even if the warhammer might be as strong.

The first is that jumpjets gives a more versatile deck for the dropcaller to do various tactics, which is important in a deck that is meant to be self sufficient without switching mechs, éspecially if newbs are going to build it as their first MWO project so they dont have any other mechs.

And the second is that the warhammer doesn't have a top tier long range alt like the grasshopper does with the 5ERLL 5P, and that is starting to matter a lot with FW games being played on polar highlands and alpine peaks.

So I definitely cast my vote for the grasshopper to be the stormtrooper mech, even if I consider the warhammer 6D to also be extremely good.

I would definitely consider the Battlemaster 2C though if it can be fitted in the deck.

BLR-2C, GHR-5H, GRF-2N, BJ-1X for example. I like that because it can swith in the BLR-1G, GHR-5P and BJ-3 for long range maps. 4 different chassis though...

I guess the most plausible deck is just 3 grasshoppers and a medium, the problem I see is that is requires using the 5N if you don't want duplicates, and that one isn't as good.

Edited by Sjorpha, 26 December 2016 - 07:40 PM.

[Tarogato]

SHRedo, on 26 December 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

dont care about that stuff folks.
The real fun in this game is to test things out by yourself
and piloting/mastering (even when skill revamp has arrived) as many mechs as possible.
You wont get good because of a to-do-Tier-List

...

Glad you're having fun playing whatever you want, there's nothing wrong with that. But many of us desire something that goes beyond that. And that something is victory. Between the two of us, we represent the strictest of dichotomies - the casual-minded versus the competitive-minded.

You can't tell us that playing better mechs won't make us perform better just as we can't tell you that tryharding to win will make you have more fun.

[Starbomber109]

Don't get me wrong SHredo, I have a lot of respect for mechlabbers. I love my riflemen, even though they may not be the strongest mechs out there I love em to bits and they're my most played heavy for sure. I dare say I like playing them way more than I like playing grashoppers...but FW is about teamwork, cohesion, speed, alpha, and unity. The original purpose of this thread was to try and get FRR mechs all going about the same speed, all having about the same alpha, to make things easier for drop callers. The mechs were quick enough to reposition, and they hit hard enough to drop clanners quickly if 3 mechs focused fire.

When the faction called, I manned up, spent millions of CBills on XL engines and Black Knights (and quickdraws) to outfit my first stormtrooper deck. Now I spent another cool 20 mil cbills or so, to upgrade to grasshoppers. I hate grasshoppers, it's a lanky looking mech and it feels weird to drive it because I got so used to arm weapons that had no lower arm actuator so twisting was a breeze. Hell, the first time I bought a GH I sold it (this was before anyone had time to tell me not to sell mechs) because I hated it so much and I couldn't be bothered to collect the other two I would have needed to master the thing. It took me driving them in FP a bunch to realize just how much hatred I have for the mech Not like it deserves hate I just don't like it....it's a personal thing.

But when I'm dropping in the faction, and I know it's needed, I throw down my GH anyways. Even though I'm **** in the 5P right now, even though I dislike the chassis, I run it because it makes the team more cohesive I remember the feeling of all those Black Knights running through Grim Portico, and let me tell you, pushing at the front of a unified lance is something you'll never forget. You're point about having fun with the game is well received, but I think you missed the point of the RKA's message. We want you to get better together. We need to all have the same engines, to run at the same speed, that way when we relocate or push we don't leave behind anyone.

On that note....I almost regret going for GH first, because now I realize dakka is more my thing, and I wanna just build the dakka deck but it's gonna take me a while.

I feel like what we really need, is a comprehensive map tactic guide for all those QP maps that got dropped into FP. sometimes I just don't even know where to go, and if noone else shot calls...damnit I'll even do it, but it'd help to at least know some good attack lanes on those troublesome maps. I need to know how to respond when 12 light mechs rush you on Arctic City, I need to know how to react when in Conquest, score is tied and Theta is open, but the enemy is closing on it fast.

[Jarl Dane]

Starbomber109, on 26 December 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

I feel like what we really need, is a comprehensive map tactic guide for all those QP maps that got dropped into FP. sometimes I just don't even know where to go, and if noone else shot calls...damnit I'll even do it, but it'd help to at least know some good attack lanes on those troublesome maps. I need to know how to respond when 12 light mechs rush you on Arctic City, I need to know how to react when in Conquest, score is tied and Theta is open, but the enemy is closing on it fast.

Something I wanted to do for a long time was make a video for the RKA/FRR showing useful and powerful movements on invasion matches. There's a handful of maneuvers for each map that you're very likely to be doing especially against skilled opponents.

However, that we're back into Quick-play matches, well that changes things. For one, I am personally better at calling QP matches than Invasion matches. My background as a competitive drop caller leaves me a lot more comfortable and capable in those matches.

The thing I see most uncoordinated groups do is stand around. The walk out of the spawn to some nearby cover and sort of just hang out. If the clanners mount an organized push these guys who are just standing around collapse. If anyone wants to do more than wait around to get ran over.. they have to push out on their own.. and often they'll just get outnumbered and beaten in some fringe.

Because of range, speed, survivability and general maneuverability; sitting around in one spot is basically playing right into the clans hands. The Inner Sphere's advantage, in my opinion, is best pressed when we are extremely and fiercely aggressive. We don't give them time to line up their lazy long range shots or set up on our flanks to do 1000 meter trades, we get in their face NOW and we melt it.

If anyone has been in any of my late night "Jarl's Longship" drops this is what they would have experienced doing, and so far it seems to be working. Timidity favors the clans. Our hope lies in the mad heroes willing to selflessly charge into enemy lines and this only works if everyone is willing to do it. Even 4-6 people pushing headlong into the enemy isn't enough.

The Inner Sphere needs to adopt a willingness to charge if we're going to have any hope at winning.

[ggodo]

As an idiot former FRR loyaist turned merc in the cw3 update. I love this thread because I'm the sort of idiot that bought the AWS-9M as his first mech, because I knew nothing about Ghost Heat, or the reasons why ERPPCs are basically unplayable. I mastered those friggin' Awesomes in the downtime this thread has had and I'm looking for suggestions for a mech to actually be good in, so I can stop being a liability to my team, and start piloting good builds. And piloting good builds starts with picking good mecs. Preferably ones that will weather the oncoming UnQuirkening relatively unscathed. For that arvise I turn to guys like Mech The Dane who have te time to put into the theory, and the experience to have developed better judment than me, the Awesome guy.

Edited for spelling. I am on phone.

Edited by ggodo, 26 December 2016 - 09:52 PM.

[CainenEX]

Hey Dane is this still up to date? Just checking on my end since I didn't see any updates listed. Most choices seem to fit the current meta well and helps pilots set up their drop deck.

Specific question regarding the WHR-6R build: What made you switch out the PPCs for LPLs?

Edited by CainenEX, 29 December 2016 - 06:09 AM.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Mech The Dane, on 26 December 2016 - 06:22 PM, said:

The first, and easiest, step towards being better than your opponent is being in the best mech possible. MWO is not a dream, it is not a subjective realm where opinions hold as much sway as facts. It is a hard coded reality where numbers rule and have the ultimate say.

You see this game, the one we're playing, can be lost off the battle field as well as inside it. This isn't even a casual problem, you'll see in competitive matches one team win it because of choices they made in the Mech Lab. Pretending like not trying, or making stupid or uninformed decisions in the Mech Bay is somehow different than griefing your team in a match - is an exercise in fantasy.

There are mechs and builds that are mathematically superior. If you want to win, if you want to prevail, then your best bet is to run these mechs. Winning is fun, success is exciting, victory is addictive.

If instead of being a team player and learning what is best and using what is best to help yourself out and your team - if you instead you want to run LOL builds and lore builds and other broken mechs that doom yourself and your team to failure. Then please join Steiner or Davion and help them achieve that .60 Win/Loss Ratio.

But if you want to be more than a skill-less doormat for the Clans. Follow me and we'll get **** done.

WOW WOW WOW

come on dude! its a game! Have fun, try things out and enjoy your stay.

[mikerso]

SHRedo, on 30 December 2016 - 02:18 AM, said:

WOW WOW WOW

come on dude! its a game! Have fun, try things out and enjoy your stay.

But it is also a team game. I love fun builds as much as anybody, but often times they are not great for a strategy based team game. That is why this thread was made, to help players that want to work as a team figure out optimal builds. In a team environment you need to know your build can be an asset to the team at all times. this not only helps you have fun, but your team too.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

mikerso, on 30 December 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

But it is also a team game. I love fun builds as much as anybody, but often times they are not great for a strategy based team game. That is why this thread was made, to help players that want to work as a team figure out optimal builds. In a team environment you need to know your build can be an asset to the team at all times. this not only helps you have fun, but your team too.

so i cant play as a team player because i dont use blueprint builds?
To be honest, its just damn boring to let somebody else figure out what works and what not.
And the experience you gain from testing out stuff is important to understand the game and its mechanics
i.e. how to be valuable team player imho.
Just imagine how it woud have been for you to beeing told what to do and what not to
from day 1 you started to play this game.Some people forget over their laughable MWO doctrines that you can
only become good in a game when you enjoy playing it.
Its like with football and you.

[Jarl Dane]

SHRedo, on 30 December 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

so i cant play as a team player because i dont use blueprint builds?
To be honest, its just damn boring to let somebody else figure out what works and what not.
And the experience you gain from testing out stuff is important to understand the game and its mechanics
i.e. how to be valuable team player imho.
Just imagine how it woud have been for you to beeing told what to do and what not to
from day 1 you started to play this game.Some people forget over their laughable MWO doctrines that you can only become good in a game when you enjoy playing it.
Its like with football and you.

When you become good, feel free to tell others how to do the same. Until then please stop posting in my thread.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 30 December 2016 - 04:52 AM.

[ggodo]

In an effort to return to topic, Grasshoppers as priority? Then move through Warhammers? I think geometrically they're solid enough to survive the Unquirkening. Good hardpoints and enough of them them to carry a working build. I'm leaning towards Hoppers because I played Invasion on that map with the big glowy sun and getting out of the dropzone beat up my legs. Are Jump Jets mandatory on that map?

[Appogee]

Great Mech-building guide for newer players.

It's interesting to me that it largely* mirrors the conclusions I've personally come to on the best IS Mechs and loadouts, save for a few differences here and there.








* Eg. Not sure about 5LL loadouts. 5LL = 10.6 DPS @ 8.25 HPS (actually, worse HPS, due to the impact of ghost heat) whereas the same tonnage of weapons could give you 3PL and 2MPL = 11.77 DPS @ 7.59 HPS with better hitreg and focused fire, zero risk of incurring ghost heat, more alphas before you hit your heat cap, and less time exposed to incoming enemy fire as you take your shots.

*Eg. I'd rate a couple of the BLKs as top tier rather than second. I'd rate a Crab in Tier 2 instead of a ROFLman. due to the added tankiness.

(But it's your thread and your unit, and these are my opinions, so I defer to your judgement!)

Edited by Appogee, 30 December 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Tarogato]

Appogee, on 30 December 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

(But it's your thread and your unit, and these are my opinions, so I defer to your judgement!)

It may be "our thread" and "our unit", but the intention is for this to be a faction-wide resource, so your opinion and input is in no way invalidated. But that isn't to say matters of opinion won't differ, and that asserting a point and getting traction and support won't be a cakewalk.

Appogee, on 30 December 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

*Eg. I'd rate a couple of the BLKs as top tier rather than second. I'd rate a Crab in Tier 2 instead of a ROFLman. due to the added tankiness.

The Crab is in Tier 3 because you shouldn't be building your dropdecks around a 50-ton trading mech, they just aren't influential enough when you consider that you could be dropping one or two assaults, or three heavies in your deck and you usually save the lightest mech for last, when a good chunk of matches are decided before you even get to the point where you drop a fourth mech. The Rifleman, on the other hand, is a 60-ton mech that has better damage output with better mounts and is *slightly* tankier (though debatable, I concede.)

The Black Knights... urgh. It's kinda tough to judge because they were so good for so long, and they can still perform well. But I just don't think they perform as *consistently* well as Grasshoppers and Warhammers. The painfully low mounts coupled with lack of jumpjets hurts, and they no longer have the incredible quirks that propped them up in the past, plus they are larger in size now compared to when they were meta (and even back then there were people that preferred Grasshoppers over them)... I just don't think they are anymore a chassis that you can say, "this is the best choice to build your dropdeck around."

Appogee, on 30 December 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

* Eg. Not sure about 5LL loadouts. 5LL = 10.6 DPS @ 8.25 HPS (actually, worse HPS, due to the impact of ghost heat) whereas the same tonnage of weapons could give you 3PL and 2MPL = 11.77 DPS @ 7.59 HPS with better hitreg and focused fire, zero risk of incurring ghost heat, more alphas before you hit your heat cap, and less time exposed to incoming enemy fire as you take your shots.

First of all, I would not mix MPL along with LPL. The burn duration on the regular ML is similar to the LPL, and you get the benefit of 23% more range, plus it saves one extra ton to add another DHS to fuel the LPL (which has a superior dmg/heat ratio to the MPL and especially the ML), or you can add another ML for your trouble and pack a larger alpha for those moments when you really need it.

Secondly, LPL optimum range is typically around 400m at most, and if you want to alpha with the full damage of your MLs you need to be within 300m (250 for MPL, eek). When you're that close the Clan mechs, you might as well just brawl rush them anyways because that is not a lot of distance to cover (with the builds you have already, or with purpose-fit brawling builds instead, shouldn't matter that much since you'll out-DPS them either way if you rush them). 5LL on the otherhand can trade out to about 500m, which is just beyond cERML range, and it means that it's possible, though difficult, to outtrade clans at distance. (however, if they specifically bring gauss+PPC, which the better clan players will, then you're screwed. Your only option is to brawl them or have ERLL and be significantly better than them, buth both of those are niche-strats and it's hard to get everybody on board with them unless you're in well-organised 12-man.)

[Jarl Dane]

Sometimes if you ask just the right question Tarogato will show up and nuke your planet from orbit with science.

[Appogee]

I appreciate Tarogato's calm and thoughtful response. As we are clearly both Men of MechScience™ with the best interests of the IS at heart, I'm going to continue to advance my case on why LPL+ML is better than 5LL ... with science.

Tarogato, on 30 December 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

First of all, I would not mix MPL along with LPL. The burn duration on the regular ML is similar to the LPL, and you get the benefit of 23% more range, plus it saves one extra ton to add another DHS to fuel the LPL (which has a superior dmg/heat ratio to the MPL and especially the ML), or you can add another ML for your trouble and pack a larger alpha for those moments when you really need it.

Yeah, I only used MPL as an example of how my alt-loadout based around LPLs could use the exactly same tonnage and number of hardpoints to achieve superior DPS at lower HPS. However, in reality I would use 3LPL + 3 or 4MLs, and then use the spare tonnage for extra heat sinks. That further increases the DPS of the LPL-based loadout even more vs the 5LL loadout compared to the numbers I shared in my earlier post.

The only advantages of your 5LL build are that you can do full damage at +85m greater range than the LPLs, and that damage is higher (45) at that 450m range than the 3LPLs (about 27 damage at that range). However, as you state, your extra range only outrages C-ERML... at a time when Clanners are mostly using C-ERPPC, C-Gauss and C-LPL as their primary weapons. Clanners still outrange IS LLs and LPLs almost all of the time. IS still needs to close the range to get the advantage of its superior DPS.

So the transient benefit of that extra damage at +85m range is almost 'edge case' territory.

More concerningly, that extra damage you did at the +85m range with the 5LLs came at the huge cost of 35 heat (assuming you didn't trigger even more ghost heat). However, I only used 21 heat with my 3LPLs. The 14 extra heat you used is equivalent to 2LPL's worth of heat. So I can fire 2 of my LPLs, doing 18 extra damage at that +85m range. So, for the same heat you used with your 5LLs, I can do the same damage as you, even in that +85m range.

BUT my build has extra heat sinks, so I am dissipating heat faster than you. And I never had to risk ghost heat. So, as I closed the range on the Clanners - as I inevitably had to do to negate their range advantage - I arrived at the brawl with a lot more heat overhead available, more ability to sustain brawling firepower longer, a bigger alpha thanks to my additional MLs, and more DPS available.

Then weigh your edge case against all the other advantages of the LPL+ML loadout... better hitreg, focused fire through lower duration, zero risk of ghost heat, several more alphas before hitting heat cap, less time exposed to incoming enemy fire, significantly higher DPS in brawling...

This is why, to me, the LPL+ML loadout is superior to 5LL.

Edited by Appogee, 31 December 2016 - 01:12 AM.

[Tarogato]

Appogee, on 30 December 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

-logic-

Stop comparing the LL build to an LPL build. What you should really be comparing is the IS build(s) vs the Clan build(s).


This does bring up an interesting point. Because LL is the better flexible all-purpose build, and it generally is better for carry-players... people who like to leverage their aiming and positioning skills to win trades, playing the slow game rather than kamikaze straight into the enemy team. I would love to see everybody in LL builds, uniformly. But not everybody has the skill to use them, and after my nights on the Jarl's Longship, I'm seeing how effective it really is to just kamikaze viking the shіt out of clan teams. If that's the new meta (which maybe it should be, given our success, lol), then yes uniform LPL would be better.

Quote

Stop comparing the LL build to an LPL build. What you should really be comparing is the IS build(s) vs the Clan build(s).

To put my money where my mouth is, and eat my foot while I'm at it,

5x LL with 17DHS: 264 sustained damage per minute
2x cLPL + 4x cERML with 25cDHS: 360 to 372 sustained damage per minute
2x cERPPC + cGauss with 15cDHS: 262 to 348 sustained damage per minute

It seems that the 5LL is actually shіt for sustained damage output, so there's no point in rushing with it. In order for LL to compete with clan DPS (or DPM), it needs to be fueled by 25 DHS. Or 21 DHS and a 15% heat gen quirk.

So if there is to be a unified deck, I think you have yourself an argument for LPL over LL. That said, I'm not going to stop playing my own LL mechs, because they perform better for me and my playstyle.

This really just confirms to me that PGI really needs to revert the buff to clan DHS. Clans were already preferred over IS, and then PGI just made clan heat performance better for no reason. Seriously wtf.

[Starbomber109]

ggodo, on 30 December 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

In an effort to return to topic, Grasshoppers as priority? Then move through Warhammers? I think geometrically they're solid enough to survive the Unquirkening. Good hardpoints and enough of them them to carry a working build. I'm leaning towards Hoppers because I played Invasion on that map with the big glowy sun and getting out of the dropzone beat up my legs. Are Jump Jets mandatory on that map?

I basically asked the same thing earlier. If you aren't looking to buy the Black Widow, my recommendation is to go for grasshoppers first. Having gone for both, the GH tends to be more mobile (slightly) and all have pretty similar builds. With the WHM you have more variety, the gameplay is more interesting but to really have a well rounded WHM deck you should invest in black widow at some point to have more options for hot maps. If you just love autocannons then you can go WHM-6R, JM-DD, and RFL-3N...And then I'm not sure, a backup laser mech or a Griffin.

[ggodo]

Starbomber, I'm not sure I could convince my wife to spend much money on my 'free' game. How much is the widow?