78 replies to this topic

[slide]

Ever since MWO launched there has been a constant stream of nerfs and buffs to weapons systems and heat. It would seem that PGI's latest attempt at controlling the constantly increasing power creep of alpha warrior online will be to introduce some sort of power draw system to curb the ridiculous size of the alphas we can launch thus increasing TTK (Time To Kill).

Before we get to that though I feel we need to seriously look at how the translation of the armor system from a turn based game has translated to a real time environment.

The problem.

In table top the armor system is based around the idea of distributed weapons fire. Essentially every weapon fired was subject to the laws of randomness by having to roll a die or 2. Multiply that by some other random modifier and there was a chance you might actually hit the target somewhere. As an example if we fired 8 medium lasers for 40 damage at a mech 1 possible result is that 3 would miss completely, 1 would hit the left arm, 1 would hit the right arm, 2 in various torsos and a leg. If you were supremely lucky you might actually get 2 hits on the same component. Most mechs, even lights could shrug this off for a round or 2. My point is that the damage applied would be spread all over the mech, making much more effective use of the available armor.

Compare that with MWO and that same 8 ML alpha is putting all that damage into one component (if you can aim), depending on the weight of the mech this can seriously ruin your day. Even the largest of mechs can only absorb 1-2 shots of that caliber in any one component before the armor is all but stripped.

We are all aware of the effect of PPFLD (Pin Point Front Loaded Damage) has on this game but what we don't realize is that it is driven by the armor system which is a direct carry over from TT. With the exception of mitigating factors, like torso twisting and XL engines, the simplest way to kill a mech is to bore through it's center torso (preferably from the back). What this means is that a mech in MWO is only as strong as it's CT, hence why we are seeing large CT structure quirks being added to help some mechs. This was addressed back in closed beta by doubling armor which solved the problem for a while but now that alphas are getting larger TTK is dropping again. It is also for this reason that distributed damage weapons such as LBX, SRM, LRM and to a lesser degree Clan AC are all largely useless at anything other than point blank range and that good mechs are largely dependent on the hit box lottery (Awesomes lost that one). It is also why taking anything less than near full armor is gimping yourself. (ergo why a lot of stock builds are useless as they don't run full armor).

In nut shell
TT - distributed (inaccurate) damage v distributed armor - balanced
MWO - pinpoint damage v distributed armor - not balanced

This problem is not new and is widely recognized however most solutions revolve around spreading the incoming damage around. Solutions such as ghost heat, longer laser fire duration, chain fire only, cone of fire, jiggly reticules, clan AC and LRM ripple fire modes. All of these solutions have been introduced since closed beta with the express purpose of increasing TTK by spreading the damage around. All of them have been more or less successful but really just force people to build around the limitations to get the biggest alpha in the least worst option.

A Solution.

Get rid of individual hit boxes for armor. (Maybe split front to back)

I get that a mech will be a giant easy target to hit, but it will also have all of the armor available for use. No longer will a mech be as week as it's CT (max) armor thresh hold it will be as strong (roughly 4 times) as the armor on the whole mech.

Now I don't particularly want to bore through 600 pts of armor to kill an Atlas so in addition we need to make the critical hit system work better. Make the crit chance inversely proportional to armor level. 100% armor - 0% crits. 50% armour - 50% crits etc. Keep the hit boxes for the various components but increase the crit rate as the mech gets more damaged. Crits would then kill individual components such as HS and weaopns (allows for more crit padding) before killing structure points.

Simple changes like this would generally-
-increase TTK across all chassis
-make a mech feel like it can tank some damage and fall apart around you
-make spread damage weapons useful again, increased crit chance
-lessen the need to make super weapons by boating
-make sub-par chassis more useful (Jenners and Awesomes have awful CT hitboxes)
-reduce the incidence of near 1 shot kills
-increase brawling without invalidating other roles
-increase variety of builds by actually being able to under armor your mech (ie stock mode)
-make DPS more important than huge alpha, pushes alphas back to last resort mode.
-make XL engines a viable option, rather than an easy kill for competent pilots


The only possible downside I can think of is it might make it impossible to stop or kill a dedicated gen rush in CW, we might need to look at the generator hit points to compensate.

If mechs should prove too hard to kill under this model then we could actually look at reducing hit points back to TT levels.

Thoughts?

[SQW]

Brute force way. Pick any one of below:

1. Cut heat gauge range by up to 50% and double heat sink effects;
2. Introduced COF;
3. Make amour 30% resistance to laser damage (exclude PPCs and retain full damage to internal).

Done. Pt 1 and 3 will probably take an afternoon to implement.
As long as COF is off the table and nobody want a 30% dmg nerf to laser, the only way to increase TTK is restricting alpha potential.

Edited by SQW, 03 March 2016 - 08:58 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Lump sum armor removes even the small amount of skill involved in aiming. At least now there's benefit to being able to shoot a specific component.

Artificial shot distribution is a preferable method. My favorite suggestion for this is to add dynamic precision reduction that fluctuates in real time due to heat, throttle setting, current stability level, etc. Moving at 50% throttle with 50% heat and firmly on the ground, you should see minimal shot deviation. Moving at 100% throttle and with 80% heat while jumping, you should see significant shot deviation.

This adds skill to managing the variables that contribute to shot deviation. It allows for precision alphas under ideal conditions, while severely curtailing the ability to spam them during intense combat. The trick would be to make the precision reduction impactful without having it entirely eliminate things like striker light mechs.

[SQW]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 03 March 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

Lump sum armor removes even the small amount of skill involved in aiming. At least now there's benefit to being able to shoot a specific component.

Artificial shot distribution is a preferable method. My favorite suggestion for this is to add dynamic precision reduction that fluctuates in real time due to heat, throttle setting, current stability level, etc. Moving at 50% throttle with 50% heat and firmly on the ground, you should see minimal shot deviation. Moving at 100% throttle and with 80% heat while jumping, you should see significant shot deviation.

This adds skill to managing the variables that contribute to shot deviation. It allows for precision alphas under ideal conditions, while severely curtailing the ability to spam them during intense combat. The trick would be to make the precision reduction impactful without having it entirely eliminate things like striker light mechs.

We had that 60+ page argument on COF 2 weeks ago remember? The community is too split on either side for PGI to implement it even if they have the technical skill to do it properly. COF is the best, lore-friendly way of handling TTK issue but it's not gonna happen.

MWO is the last refuge for the Quake heroes of yesteryear that got left behind by the CS recoil revolution.

[El Bandito]

But putting all the armor together as one hit point makes it less Mechwarrior, and more Armored Core (or some other mech game), which is something I do not want.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 March 2016 - 09:36 PM.

[TheCharlatan]

While it does have it's drawbacks, component targeting is what make MWO be MWO.
Without it (and the awesome situations it creates, like when you see a mech gunning for you and you twist as hard as you can to use your shield arm) this game is just "slow COD".
Also, without twisting and damage spreading, DPS weapons wins 100% of the time. Just face-hug stuff and shoot shoot shoot, why bother twisting?

[slide]

Cone of fire is never going to happen, it's been shouted down to many times.

Although I agree my suggestion is not ideal from a lore perspective, numbers wise it is actually closer to TT than what we have now. If we get the crit system right you will still be able to shoot off legs, arms or what ever just not on the first or second alpha.

Any other system either nerfs certain builds or weapons into the ground. Doing what I suggest actually buffs everything and excludes nothing.

Here's an example (forgetting heat for a minute). Lets take our old friend the 6PPC stalker. Universelly hated and the explicit reason we have ghost heat.

In TT - fires 6 ppcs (and explodes) at an Atlas. 2 miss, the other 4 hit LA,LL, RT, CT. 40 points spread over 4 locations. Overall effect minimal. Total of 40 points armor lost out of 300. (7.5% reduction in armor over whole mech)

In MWO as is - fires 6ppc (no shut down scurries away) at an atlas. All hit CT. 60 points out of 600 (doubled armor) (10% reduction). More importantly the Atlas has lost over 60% of it's CT armor assuming it was front loaded to at least 100 points of protection. A second shot has the CT wide open and the mech nearly dead.

In MWO with single armor hit box - fires 6ppc at Atlas and hit CT. 60 of 600 points (10% armor reduction) Atlas is still at 90 % armor but is now vulnerable to critical hits from incoming fire. At this point the Atlas can still tank some damage but is going to start losing HS and weapons and become more vulnerable as the game goes on.

In the second example most mechs are going to go looking for cover and cowering behind their fellow, either that or they are dead very quickly.

I am not fixated on it being inclusive of all armor on a mech, it can be split front to back and arms and legs can be excluded too (although it might encourage more leggings). But quite frankly it is not difficult to hit most CT's any way, just look at how many times you die to CT with barely a scratch elsewhere.

My idea may not be the best solution but it is currently the only one I have seen that helps all mechs equally, doesn't require convoluted mechanics (ie ghost heat) that are mostly case specific. Personally I would rather see cone of fire but that is deemed as unacceptable by many, so we need to start looking at other solutions. The simple fact is we have allowed concentrated fire and the development of boated super weapons. The armor system never changed and it needs to be looked at.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

heat and movement dependant COF, recoil

merging armor is a dumb idea - even more hitboxes with more but less serious consequences would be a better one

armor is not the problem, pinpoint alphas and 100% accurate fire is

Edited by Thunderbird Anthares, 04 March 2016 - 02:19 AM.

[slide]

I'd take more hit boxes any day, but hit reg is bad enough with out making it worse.

[Johnny Z]

Armor is simple and work great and is always an interesting choice to balance in game, where to put the points. It works good and is fun as is.

Maybe Ferro Fibrous needs something. Not sure what.

In closed beta the first question I asked was in game and it was why I couldn't put more armor on my mech if I had the extra tonnage. Not sure if thats worth looking at.

[Wolfways]

If the new system does limit alphas I don't see the point of this.

If it's just about TTK being too short (which it isn't imo) because of mechs with disadvantageous hit locations (i.e. HBK hunch) then I think my suggestion from years ago is best. Give each mech an extra % of its max armour as "floating armour" that a player can apply wherever he wants between the three torsos. I would have said anywhere but we all know light pilots will shove all points into the legs

It also helps with the engine type you run.
Want to protect your XL engine more? Split the points between the st's. Need better protection for your STD engine? Put all your points in the ct.
Jenner ct too easy to hit? Hunchback st too easy to hit? Put the points where you like.

Plus it will really help assaults be "tankier" than they currently are.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Pretty much as stated above.

The ability to focus specific parts of a battlemech, has been a staple of Mechwarrior since it's inception.

While it does cause some problems that have never been addressed, literally the only thing that CAN address it, is as others above said, some form of shot deviation system.

People continually rail against shot deviation, because they feel it removes any skill... yet they forget that, shot deviation can be learned and overcome just like anything else.

As an Example, CoD utilizes a CoF/Shot Deviation system, yet look at all the epic 360 noscope video's. It doesn't matter that there's a shot deviation system in play, a high level, high skill player, can overcome that system, and land shots that are seemingly impossible.

As annoying as those video's are, it shows that a shot deviation system is something you can learn and adapt to. And considering every modern FPS has SOME form of Shot Deviation, I find it strange that we're playing Quake with MWO here.

[Johnny Z]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 04 March 2016 - 02:38 AM, said:

Pretty much as stated above.

The ability to focus specific parts of a battlemech, has been a staple of Mechwarrior since it's inception.

While it does cause some problems that have never been addressed, literally the only thing that CAN address it, is as others above said, some form of shot deviation system.

People continually rail against shot deviation, because they feel it removes any skill... yet they forget that, shot deviation can be learned and overcome just like anything else.

As an Example, CoD utilizes a CoF/Shot Deviation system, yet look at all the epic 360 noscope video's. It doesn't matter that there's a shot deviation system in play, a high level, high skill player, can overcome that system, and land shots that are seemingly impossible.

As annoying as those video's are, it shows that a shot deviation system is something you can learn and adapt to. And considering every modern FPS has SOME form of Shot Deviation, I find it strange that we're playing Quake with MWO here.

This reply above is a direct quote from the Gauss charge argument.

"the gauss charge can be learned so well its like its not there."

"players are using macros to avoid even this, get rid of it"

"ya but its a balancing mechanic"

"how is it a balancing mechanic if it can be entirely avoided through practice or macros.(almost entirely macros)"

Point being add something that can not be avoided or made pointless... and yet still does its job for balance.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 March 2016 - 02:50 AM.

[pizzafly]

slide, on 03 March 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:

Thoughts?

A big Nope.

This would remind me life level, a-la Quake.

The real solution is less pinpoint convergence.

[Tipenok]

In any pvp game (even pve) the goal to achieve is reduce TTK by any solution.

With this, you won't -lessen the need to make super weapons by boating- You will need even more power to cut through the massive armor. Plus, no need to twist/move to protect your RT/LT/ARM weapon (Looking at you Hunchy). You won't be able to disable a major threat, faster than killing it. In the end, everyone will move in Assult type Mech because they will have the strongest armor AND more weapons than any other Mech.

This remind me Armored Warfare game where MBT are just immune frontaly and can do the job of any other tank.

Increasing crit =(lottery)= going through armor = favor one type of weapon = useless armor
Becoming TTC

I'm a dedicated SMLNova player, I can be deadly for an Atlas or KG with proper aim, I can't imagine how I would kill them if they got no more individual armor part.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Johnny Z, on 04 March 2016 - 02:44 AM, said:

This reply above is a direct quote from the Gauss charge argument.

"the gauss charge can be learned so well its like its not there."

"players are using macros to avoid even this, get rid of it"

"ya but its a balancing mechanic"

"how is it a balancing mechanic if it can be entirely avoided through practice or macros.(almost entirely macros)"

Point being add something that can not be avoided or made pointless... and yet still does its job for balance.

Any balance mechanic can eventually be "overcome" in some capicity.

In tabletop, you can learn the statistics and figure out the bell curve in order to optimize every single shot you take.

In Videogames, practice, understanding gun recoil, understanding underlying mechanics, ect. All lead to better play.

What you want, is a 100% unlearnable balance mechanic, never happen, that's not how balance works.

There will ALWAYS be people who learn to stay at the top of the curve, there will always be people who learn the systems and end up "Better" than the others. That's just part of life.

However, if you have a system that can be learned, and compensated for over time with training, then at high level's of play, that training is the only barrier of skill, where as at lower level's of play, the balance system works out just fine.

Johnny my man, I hate to tell you this, but some kind of shot deviation system is the best shot we have at actual balance, outside of tossing out every existing system in game and completely reworking it from scratch.

[Johnny Z]

This game has been adding "armor" this with structure quirks adding massive durability to components. This also has the effect of improving the "mech falling apart around the pilot" immersion factor.

This is a straight up improvement in game play this game has been doing and is partly already in game. It doesn't get a lot of credit or notice though. The counter quirk crowd straight up wants quirks removed and is all for "alpha warrior" online game play.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 March 2016 - 03:00 AM.

[Johnny Z]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 04 March 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:

Any balance mechanic can eventually be "overcome" in some capicity.

In tabletop, you can learn the statistics and figure out the bell curve in order to optimize every single shot you take.

In Videogames, practice, understanding gun recoil, understanding underlying mechanics, ect. All lead to better play.

What you want, is a 100% unlearnable balance mechanic, never happen, that's not how balance works.

There will ALWAYS be people who learn to stay at the top of the curve, there will always be people who learn the systems and end up "Better" than the others. That's just part of life.

However, if you have a system that can be learned, and compensated for over time with training, then at high level's of play, that training is the only barrier of skill, where as at lower level's of play, the balance system works out just fine.

Johnny my man, I hate to tell you this, but some kind of shot deviation system is the best shot we have at actual balance, outside of tossing out every existing system in game and completely reworking it from scratch.

Wont happen. Can be completely avoided making the entire thing worthless. Why would they go through the trouble of adding it if the situation is was added to correct is still there entirely unchanged. Except legit players cant hit what they are aiming at.

This video is of a weapon that has recoil and COF, with two very invasive entiryl independent counter cheat program.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 March 2016 - 03:08 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Johnny Z, on 04 March 2016 - 03:03 AM, said:

Wont happen. Can be completely avoided making the entire thing worthless. Why would they go through the trouble of adding it if the situation is was added to correct is still there entirely unchanged. Except legit players cant hit what they are aiming at.

Um, "Legit" players can hit what they are aiming at.

Have you played ANY FPS game in the last 15 years? CoD? Battlefield? Halo? Hell ArmA? Every single FPS game has a Shot Deviation mechanic governed by movement speed, direction, and overall stability. The good ol "Expanding" reticle.

Movement causes shot sway, knowing how to govern that sway, is part of the skill.

personally it just sounds like you're a huge fan of PPFLD and don't want that to go away Johnny.

And I'm not saying that overcoming the shot deviation gives you perfect aim either. But it DOES mean you'er more likely to hit your target, than miss in a given situation.

The point is, if you've played any of those other FPS games, and done even relatively decent, then you've already seen proof that shot deviation can be fair, and work, as well as overcome by highly skilled players.

Ontop of that, in a game that has match making as part of the balancing mechanics [attempting to ensure players of relatively equal skill + or - a tier are in the same game.] then you'll always have a relatively balanced game, unlike something like CoD or Battlefield that throws top level players in with the noobs.

Edited by CMDR Sunset Shimmer, 04 March 2016 - 03:14 AM.

[Johnny Z]

That game had a huge budget and is next gen and was along the lines of GTA 5 sort of. Entirely shut down by botters. When I tried that game it had banned 4k players, at the moment its over 7k.

I could go on and on but cof and recoil is not a legit players friend and only helps to make cheating even more of an advantage.

If this could be avoided without any doubt then this discussion changes.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 March 2016 - 03:14 AM.