56 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

Wintersdark, on 04 March 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

No, it's just a very contentious issue.

Maps started out TINY (and team size was 8v8) initially. As new maps have been added, they've been getting generally larger and larger. The oldest maps have been redone as well, to make them larger (and play better) - for example, River City was once a quarter of the size it used to be.

But, it's very contentious. Some of us love bigger maps, others hate them. So, it's something that has to happen gradually.

I'd say river city was like 1/2 of what it is now, it was a decent sized map still. Forest Colony was tiny however and I'd say that one is somewhere between 4-8x its original size (idk, I'd have to overlay the maps).

But yeah, the smaller maps were mostly around during the 8v8 days and since we moved to 12v12 the general size is larger. Certain maps are 'mid-sized' but still work and things like Canyon Network still work because of the barriers/cliffs and overall elevation changes and cover.

The problem is that quickplay games are more of an arena style match and limited to 15 minutes (hence quickplay), so the size of maps needs to be limited otherwise the match COULD end without a shot ever being fired. In MW4 comp play we used 60 min or unlimited match time (whatever it was) because we could spend a long time not making contact.

[Wolfways]

MauttyKoray, on 04 March 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

The problem is that quickplay games are more of an arena style match and limited to 15 minutes (hence quickplay), so the size of maps needs to be limited otherwise the match COULD end without a shot ever being fired. In MW4 comp play we used 60 min or unlimited match time (whatever it was) because we could spend a long time not making contact.

I've always hated the 15/30 minutes crap. It's hard to really care about a match when you know it will be over so fast. I want matches that last hours!!! (with respawn of course )

Edited by Wolfways, 04 March 2016 - 09:39 PM.

[MrMadguy]

Walking for 5 minutes =/= playing the game.

If you play Light, your speed is 170kph, so you want bigger maps in order to make all other 'Mechs completely useless, grief slower 'Mechs via playing "CapWarrior Online", "Hide'n'Seek", "Survival squirrel" and "Rogues do it from behind...from 1K meters", without them being able to counter you - then it's only your problems.

When I hear demands like this, one thing comes into my mind - that all Light pilots are that kind of players, who likes to play games with cheats. I.e. "I want God Mode, so I won't be able to lose".

Edited by MrMadguy, 05 March 2016 - 12:54 AM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

MrMadguy, on 05 March 2016 - 12:54 AM, said:

Walking for 5 minutes =/= playing the game.

If you play Light, your speed is 170kph, so you want bigger maps in order to make all other 'Mechs completely useless, grief slower 'Mechs via playing "CapWarrior Online", "Hide'n'Seek", "Survival squirrel" and "Rogues do it from behind...from 1K meters", without them being able to counter you - then it's only your problems.

When I hear demands like this, one thing comes into my mind - that all Light pilots are that kind of players, who likes to play games with cheats. I.e. "I want God Mode, so I won't be able to lose".

I'm still debating whether or not all your posts are nonsensical or if you're just on drugs.

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 05 March 2016 - 01:17 AM.

[Kaisha]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 05 March 2016 - 01:17 AM, said:

I'm still debating whether or not all your posts are nonsensical or if you're just on drugs.

That or perhaps he plays an assault from time to time.

[MrMadguy]

It's simple logic. Playing PVP game - is competing with other players. One of the essential parts of competition - is fair play. When you ask something, that renders other players (with their 50kph of speed) useless - you actually want solo game or, that even worse, you want multiplayer game, where you will be able to dominate over other players.

Assaults are completely useless on big open maps due to being big slow easy targets, especially when game mode is cap-based, like Conquest. How can you imagine slow 'Mechs, capping on big map? So why would they even play such map/mode, if they're nobody except supernumeraries there? Make this map/mode "for Lights only".

Edited by MrMadguy, 05 March 2016 - 01:38 AM.

[Mizore]

Well, assaults don't necessarily have to cap... they can also protect cap points like in the early times of alpine peaks with the old cap points.
It worked fine, because it's a TEAM game!
In a TEAM game, not every player has to be able to do everything on his own.
Assaults don't have to be able to cap, scout... that's what other mechs can do way better!
Think about that!

Edited by Mizore, 05 March 2016 - 02:12 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Mizore, on 05 March 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

Well, assaults don't necessarily have to cap... they can also protect cap points like in the early times of alpine peaks with the old cap points.
It worked fine, because it's a TEAM game!
In a TEAM game, not every player has to be able to do everything on his own.
Assaults don't have to be able to cap, scout... that's what other mechs can do way better!
Think about that!

In-Game Exploits/griefing


Non-Participation Abuse
If a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense".

So every player, that plays Conquest, is expected to move to other cap point, once current one is capped and no enemies around to defend it from. Going to nearest cap point and staying there to "defend it" - is forbidden by COC. Same with Assault. Staying at your own base to defend it - is forbidden.

Edited by MrMadguy, 05 March 2016 - 02:28 AM.

[Kaisha]

Mizore, on 05 March 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

Well, assaults don't necessarily have to cap... they can also protect cap points like in the early times of alpine peaks with the old cap points.
It worked fine, because it's a TEAM game!
In a TEAM game, not every player has to be able to do everything on his own.
Assaults don't have to be able to cap, scout... that's what other mechs can do way better!
Think about that!

Leave an assault behind to defend? It'll get destroyed by any light running by. A solo assault is a free kill for any light that has a clue how to pilot.

[Idealsuspect]

Wedge Red Leader, on 04 March 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

I don't understand why the maps are so small in MWO. Is it a CryEngine limitation? For example, in the polar highlands map, I can rarely take a step backwards without hitting someone. Being I'm still newish to the game, maybe it's me. Because I hear all the time how people think its a huge map. Maybe I should post this under the help section?

Bigger maps mean bigger nascar race lap.
xD me i am ok with smalls maps or bigs and biggers. Just we need good map design and polar highland is good designed IMO when alpine isnt in the current state.

[Anjian]

SQW, on 04 March 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

There was a PC gamer article years ago where someone in PGI explained their map design process.

Basically they have a piece of blank paper with two opposite spawning sites, drew two circles where they want sighting of enemy to happen within 20 seconds and then a big circle in the exact middle of the map where they want brawl to occur within 35 seconds. Then they fill in the texture and stuff. They considered this to be a careful and well thought out process in map design.

Basically, MWO started off as an arena shooter and some of the legacy still plague us now. PH is definitely a big jump in the right direction. I remember when PH was first introduced, because most of the pilots have been playing choke point shooter for years, their first instinct on a big open map was still run towards the middle. *sigh*

Can't wait for the new desert map in March update. =)

Playing with War Thunder and Wargaming products gives me an entirely different idea how their maps are designed.

They appear to collect statistical data where the engagements happen and when deaths occur.

They design the map so that there are multiple engagement areas all over the map, east to west, north and south. As a result, much of the map resources are utilized. Greater utilization of the map leads to improved repeatability experience.

Sniping points are identified, they are removed if abused and the numbers of points are controlled.

There are brawling areas and there are long range firing zones.

The maps encourage at least three flows of attack that begins from your base to their base.

Domination points encourage these flows of attack.

Both War Thunder Ground Forces and World of Tanks initially started with the bottleneck theory of map design, then gradually abandoned them, either retired the map, lowered their occurrence or redesigned them with multiple attack lanes.

As a player, when you start with one of these maps, you are immediately struck with a question of decision making. Should you go east? Should you go west? Should you go center? Teams would split, no need to create a giant mass meatball vs. meatball confrontation in the center. If your team loses one of the "fronts", the enemy wing would swing around and threaten your flanks and rear.

Looking at the evolution of MWO's maps, it seems that PGI is aware of this, but still somehow reluctant to abandon the bottleneck theory of map design. CW's maps for examples, are a hybrid between bottleneck and having more than one attack vector. In my opinion, these maps are not completely successful, though they are not total failures either.

Later generation maps tend to move away from bottlenecks towards multiple attack vectors. There are still frequent and common force concentrations but there appears to be greater diversity. I tend to think that, despite being slow learners, they are learning bit by bit and PGI wants to overhaul and redesign as many maps as possible but lack the developer and financial resources to do so, so they are doing things step by step.

[Idealsuspect]

MrMadguy, on 05 March 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

In-Game Exploits/griefing


Non-Participation Abuse
If a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense".

So every player, that plays Conquest, is expected to move to other cap point, once current one is capped and no enemies around to defend it from. Going to nearest cap point and staying there to "defend it" - is forbidden by COC. Same with Assault. Staying at your own base to defend it - is forbidden.

How many time i did win on conquest by staying on a capped position becose i knew that the last red guy still alive ( last alive cose he did only cap during whole match you know the kind of ecm light still full armor focused on useless cap since beginning of game ) will obviously come for his next cap .... killed him finish the match faster.

After his destruction and also end of match everybody can see his score which was nearly close to zero damage but according to PGI ( who don't really understand their own game ) i was in case of non-participation no matter if i have 4 kills 600 damage and didnt cap but the last red capper with zero kill 30 damage ( his fight with his killer ) fall not under non-participation stupid rules xD

Well me i am not really concerned becose even when i am waiting, i am always moving even in little circle not becose of this rule but becose i dont play as static turret even when i am clearly waiting a innocent mindless capper.

Anjian, on 05 March 2016 - 02:49 AM, said:

Later generation maps tend to move away from bottlenecks towards multiple attack vectors. There are still frequent and common force concentrations but there appears to be greater diversity. I tend to think that, despite being slow learners, they are learning bit by bit and PGI wants to overhaul and redesign as many maps as possible but lack the developer and financial resources to do so, so they are doing things step by step.

Exactly.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 05 March 2016 - 02:58 AM.

[Mizore]

MrMadguy, on 05 March 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

In-Game Exploits/griefing


Non-Participation Abuse
If a player has joined a match, they must have launched the game with intent to play. Players who are not moving, or are otherwise not participating in the spirit of the game, fall under this category. While we all understand the call of nature: Repeated abuse of this behaviour, similarly to 'Mech Suicide and Team Killing, results in an unfair advantage for the enemy teams, and is thus not considered acceptable use. Please keep in mind that idling on your cap point without armour or moving does not constitute a form of tactical "Base Defense".

So every player, that plays Conquest, is expected to move to other cap point, once current one is capped and no enemies around to defend it from. Going to nearest cap point and staying there to "defend it" - is forbidden by COC. Same with Assault. Staying at your own base to defend it - is forbidden.

WROONNGGGG!!!
If you move around on the cap point a little, then it's not forbidden, as long as you have at least one point of armour left.
Base defense per se is definitely not forbidden!

On the other side, it's not clear for me, if by "not moving" they mean not moving around or just not moving at all (torso, arms), but I guess it's the second one, everything else would be quite strange.

[MrMadguy]

Idealsuspect, on 05 March 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

How many time i did win on conquest by staying on a capped position becose i knew that the last red guy still alive ( last alive cose he did only cap during whole match you know the kind of ecm light still full armor focused on useless cap since beginning of game ) will obviously come for his next cap .... killed him finish the match faster.

After his destruction and also end of match everybody can see his score which was nearly close to zero damage but according to PGI ( who don't really understand their own game ) i was in case of non-participation no matter if i have 4 kills 600 damage and didnt cap but the last red capper with zero kill 30 damage ( his fight with his killer ) fall not under non-participation stupid rules xD

Well me i am not really concerned becose even when i am waiting, i am always moving even in little circle not becose of this rule but becose i dont play as static turret even when i am clearly waiting a innocent mindless capper.

Yeah, there are some parts of rules, that contradict to each other, if you will treat them literally. One rule tells you, that suicide, i.e. attacking enemies without any tactical purpose, is forbidden, but other rule tells you, that avoiding engaging with enemies - is forbidden too. Same here: one rule tells you, that you can't idle for tactical purposes, but other rule tells you, that you can do it, if it assists you towards victory. There are no exact conditions, that make difference between this two situations - you should feel it by yourself. Any rules are usually about fair play and spirit of sport. So you should feel the difference between "turn around the corner, shutdown, pass enemy by, ambush him" and "hide in a corner of the map and wait for enemies to find you" and also between "defend base from enemies, that are going to attack it, as preventive measure, that assists you towards victory" and "go to base, idle there, waiting for enemies, that can just possibly attack it".

That's why thing, that was suggested above - is against COC. If you're Assault and just can't play CapWarrior Online - you can't just go to nearest base and idle there, waiting for enemies. You should hide only from enemy, that sees you. Hiding at location, that isn't known by enemies - is forbidden. Also you should defend only what is being attacked. Defending only for purpose of defending - is forbidden.

Edited by MrMadguy, 05 March 2016 - 03:50 AM.

[Wintersdark]

MauttyKoray, on 04 March 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

I'd say river city was like 1/2 of what it is now, it was a decent sized map still. Forest Colony was tiny however and I'd say that one is somewhere between 4-8x its original size (idk, I'd have to overlay the maps).

But yeah, the smaller maps were mostly around during the 8v8 days and since we moved to 12v12 the general size is larger. Certain maps are 'mid-sized' but still work and things like Canyon Network still work because of the barriers/cliffs and overall elevation changes and cover.

The problem is that quickplay games are more of an arena style match and limited to 15 minutes (hence quickplay), so the size of maps needs to be limited otherwise the match COULD end without a shot ever being fired. In MW4 comp play we used 60 min or unlimited match time (whatever it was) because we could spend a long time not making contact.

At 18:12, they show the old/new and scale amounts, the new map is 190% larger - very nearly 3x the original size. The original River City was smaller than Forest Colony. It was tiny.

As to match duration, have you noticed that PH has a 20m match timer? =) They've got that in the bag.

But yeah, I wouldn't want to go bigger; particularly with basically any larger terrain, it would be really easy to simply never see each other. Not good.

[Idealsuspect]

MrMadguy, on 05 March 2016 - 03:41 AM, said:

If you're Assault and just can't play CapWarrior Online - you can't just go to nearest base and idle there, waiting for enemies. You should hide only from enemy, that sees you. Hiding at location, that isn't known by enemies - is forbidden. Also you should defend only what is being attacked. Defending only for purpose of defending - is forbidden.

yea i agree with assault mode but even for assault mode it's not that easy...

For example on caustic if you bring a sniper assault and your team is camping all in C3, isnt a bad idea to cover the base with your snipe ...
Well your team have to check map and decide if they dont need the guy who is base-covering and also make a push without him or if they want stay not to far from him for he provide support and for he share his armor with team.

But definitivly go near out of bound far behind his base and wait all teamates die for stole last kills with your 100tonns is non-participation, TierS1111111111 example of non participation every matchs....


I mean this game is all about position and rolewarfare don't expect from an assault sniper or lrms build that he charge for you if the rest of team is also camping in another position more close to the battlefield like C3 for camp with large/medium laser.
Use the best of your build is a part of game, check positions of all mechs friends or foes on mini map before move is also part of the game. Also the CoC writing by tier4 pilots ( hello pgi ) is a big joke IMO.


And for conquest we have same opinions ...

Quote

Yeah, there are some parts of rules, that contradict to each other

I mean conquest is basically the game mode when a smart pilot can really predict precisely where the moob is moving on or will moving on also defend an already capped base, even you lose on point is sometime the only move which could make your team win even they are flaming you on chat or giving your position lol....


Some people can't handle with this fact and will fall into lots of traps again and again and this guys will yell again the last teamate alive, give his position, threaten him to legg him or TK and even report him for team killing and non participation no matter if he have 50-90% of total team kills ahahahah ( true story ).

Edited by Idealsuspect, 05 March 2016 - 06:15 AM.

[Zibmo]

process, on 04 March 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Large maps for the sake of largeness usually end up being thoughtless maps. There is very little incentive not to rush towards the middle to skirmish.

The real challenge is designing maps that encourage different strategies, and looking at the maps we currently have, that doesn't seem to correlate to size.

I think Viridian Bog is a good example of a map that's not too large, and has enough going on that it doesn't always turn into a death ball/firing line/nascar.

You may be right, but if I never see it again, I will die a happy man. I hate the Bawg. So much wasted artwork - if you aren't in heat mode, you can't see anything.

I also love that in some maps I can push over trees, but in the Bawg I get hung up on a 1.5 foot tree root. I guarantee you that if I hit one of those roots with a 100tonner going 50+ kph, the damned tree will splinter.

Edited by Zibmo, 05 March 2016 - 06:20 AM.