168 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

SplashDown, on 07 March 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

Lights are not OP in the hands of skilled players..they are just OP to you becuz you cant hit them..only other skilled players can.

http://fukung.net/v/...430ff16a08a.gif

Blah blah blah. And Paladins weren't OP back in WotLK - they were so decent, just because every single player, who was playing Paladin, was uber skilled, and all other classes were played by complete noobs.

I even remember those cries: "DON'T NERF US!!! We were always THAAAAT skilled - we weren't showing it, just because we were playing overgimped class since Vanilla. And now, when it finally became fine, we can show all our infinite sill to other players. And other players are just noobs, who don't want to adapt/improve/L2P." Yeah... Where are all of them now? Playing Lights in MWO, I guess.

Edited by MrMadguy, 07 March 2016 - 05:44 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

I've actually proposed dropping the global speed scale somewhat. The 150kph today isn't as fast as 150kph tomorrow. Not for any balance or buff/nerf reasons though. With this, we can add the Fire Moth and not break the engine.

[Mawai]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 05 March 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

no, hit registration is not fine - it has the same issues it used to have back in Beta, just not as often

LOL ... total BS.

If you played closed Beta and anything before they put in HSR (Host State Rewind) you know that this statement is totally, completely and utterly wrong.

Circle strafing against Ravens or Jenners where you have to aim at empty space one or two mech lengths in front of the target in order to get any kind of hit. THAT was bad hit registration. What we have now is so much better than beta it isn't even funny. PPCs were so terrible at hitting things due to lagshield that they buffed the weapon and then had to roll it back when netcode was improved and HSR implemented.

Even hit reg against moving heavies and assaults could be bad if they moved at a decent speed.

Today's game is MUCH different.

However, a lot of what folks blame on hit registration is bad piloting or not understanding how the weapons work ... particularly convergence.

1) There is a MINIMUM convergence distance coded. IF you aim at a target that is standing right in front of you, especially a light mech, it is possible for your weapons to completely miss due to convergence. I was driving an Atlas once (a long time ago) with an ERPPC in each arm. A spider was 10m or less in front of me, I aimed at the CT, and then watched as the ERPPC trails made a big X that crossed behind the target with both shots completely missing despite the aim point being on target). Arms and fixed mounted weapons on the torso can only be made to converge so much .... the arms dont bend in to be able to hit something standing right in front of you. Against larger mechs, this can result in one shot hitting LT/LA and the other RT/RA even when the CT is the target.

2) I realize spectating might not be the best viewpoint. However, a LOT of pilots aim DIRECTLY AT a light mech that is running past them at close range. If they are using ballistics or other time of flight weapons ... the light mech WON'T be there when the shots arrive. Leading at close range is a challenge. However, when you LEAD a target ... the weapons are targeted and CONVERGE on the TERRAIN under the aiming reticle. If that point is in the far distance then your weapons fire almost parallel and you are almost guaranteed to MISS with one if not both of the shots depending on how good you are at leading fast targets at close range. Varying people are also terribad at holding a laser on a moving target ... typically at least 1/2 the beam duration is off the target if you look at replays.

All that said, there may still be hit registration issues that need resolving ... but they are VERY HARD to prove. If you record your matches and have good examples of hit registration that fails then send them to PGI. I haven't run into any really bad ones recently.

P.S. On the subject of SRMs ... these have a scatter and cone of fire from the location of the launcher. I watched a video some time ago where someone was complaining about SRM hit registration and how they had fired 6 SRM6 into the CT of a target and did not kill it. However, when you look at the video frame by frame you can see that, due to the different missile trajectories, a lot of them missed. The target in this case was a Stormcrow ... missiles went between the torso and arms, between the legs, over the shoulders, as well as hitting LA,LT,CT,RT,RA.RL,LL ... the firer seemed to expect that they would kill the target since they aimed for the CT and in many cases they might have ... but SRMs are RANDOM and luck plays a role in terms of both how many hit and where they hit.

[sycocys]

Widowmaker1981, on 07 March 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

Do you mean Alpha strikes, or do you mean group fire? If you mean group fire*** then what should be the limit? Chain fire only? 2 weapons? how much damage? At what range? Does it matter if it spread vs pin point?

See, its not as easy as saying 'Stop da alphastrikes piggy'

***which you do, because alpha strike is defined as meaning 'all weapons on the mech' and any restrictions on that can easily be bypassed by adding a single MG or SL that you never fire.

If you've ever seen me run my Commandos at any point from CB to now, you'd know that I honestly don't care about alpha strikes - they really just make it easier for competent light pilots to kill heavier mechs.

There really isn't a hit reg problem for all but maybe the Locust and "maybe" the Spider which still have weird hitboxes, but there has long been a "can't aim for sht" problem. Decent light pilots get quite adept at making people misread ranges and angles.

There should be a heat scale system though, something that actually forces players into making tactical choices with how they use their tech - from weapons, to ecm/bap, to JJ and masc. It would actually work to balance things out quite a lot across the board between all chassis. Shutting down and light internal damage has proven to not be a deterrent for running hot builds for 3 years now.

Edited by sycocys, 07 March 2016 - 06:29 AM.

[GreyNovember]

Isn't it nice how the OP Just threw this out here and never bothered to defend himself?

[MechWarrior5152251]

SplashDown, on 07 March 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

Lights are not OP in the hands of skilled players..they are just OP to you becuz you cant hit them..only other skilled players can.

http://fukung.net/v/...430ff16a08a.gif

Says the person hiding their tier....lol.

One reason lights last longer than most other mechs in battle is because smart players will take out the fattest most dangerous targets first. Why shoot a light when there is a Direwolf right in front of you. Though I do see terribads shooting lights while a direwhale is about to unload on them...

Edited by MechWarrior5152251, 07 March 2016 - 06:47 AM.

[MadcatX]

MechWarrior5152251, on 07 March 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Says the person hiding their tier....lol.

Says the person that doesn't seem to realize that the tier system is an XP bar. You can quite literally fail your way to high tier lol. And for full disclosure, I'm tier 3 if that's of any relevance whatsoever in this thread. I'll give you a hint: it's not.

[MrMadguy]

MechWarrior5152251, on 07 March 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Says the person hiding their tier....lol.

One reason lights last longer than most other mechs in battle is because smart players will take out the fattest most dangerous targets first. Why shoot a light when there is a Direwolf right in front of you. Though I do see terribads shooting lights while a direwhale is about to unload on them...

No. It happens, because players learned, that it's pointless to shoot Lights, as they have more survivability, than said Direwhales.

And I usually like to ruin this Light exploiters' game via coring their STs via one precious shot, while they are still unaware, that they're being focused and can even stop moving - first shot is extremely important against Lights, don't fail it. Yeah, I'm not able to kill them anyway, but they are used to get 0.0001 dmg per shot and be able to stretch their 20 armor for entire duration of match, so cored ST, that can cause instant death, usually forces them to hide in the corner of the map, as they love to do so much. Yeah, it will be harder to catch them at the end, but at least they won't disturb you during match.

Edited by MrMadguy, 07 March 2016 - 07:13 AM.

[Novakaine]

A guy on a freaking bicycle with a rifle is not going to out tank a damn Abrams battle tank period.
Yet match after match you see a Locust taking a Direwolf.
It's still ridiculousness.
Oh a side note you two guys who threatened to hunt me down chop off my head.
Ya can't have it nah nah

Edited by Novakaine, 07 March 2016 - 08:05 AM.

[GreyNovember]

Novakaine, on 07 March 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

A guy on a freaking bicycle with a rifle is not going to out tank a damn Abrams battle tank period.
Yet match after match you see a Locust taking a Direwolf.
It's still ridiculousness.
Oh a side note you two guys who threatened to hunt me down chop off my head.
Ya can't have it nah nah

Except in this case it's a very small tank with rocket engines strapped to it, but a smaller armor piercing gun, compared to a super sized slow tank with like 5 cannon nipples. And the smaller tank was configured by it's driver specifically for hunting down big slow tanks.

Come now. A bike. surely such a disingenuous comparison is beneath us.

[Lugh]

If you are having trouble with light mechs, you are the problem. Not the light mech.

However,

I am all for implementing Knockdowns so we can drink in the tears of woefully bad light mech pilots. Yes, I am talking to you, you crotch humping scrub.

[SplashDown]

There are literily 2 types of players in this game and you can easily tell them apart just by the way they post in this thread.

(1st type of player has np killing light mechs.....This type of player see's a light mech coming..quickly asses the situation..ramains calm...ajust his aim..maybe his stance and the way he fires his weapons..perhaps to chain fire.
Quickly raining a storm of dps that kills the light mech or forces it to retreat into the darkness never to return.

(2nd type of player cant hit a light mech to save his life.....This type of player see's a light mech coming..Moisture already pooling up under the eye..Is prone to panic..Aim becomes erratic...Fires a full alpha missing horribly..all the while screaming at his PC screen..(THAT WAS A HIT! I SAW IT! I SAW IT!),,Moisture dam has broken at this point,,Tears flowing down face...Fires 2nd alpha forcing over heat and shutting down and dieing soon after..at this point screams at PC again..slams mouse throws speakers...leaps 5 feet into air landing on bed and face planting pillow..3 minutes later angrily wipes tears from face, pics up mouse and speakers and heads straight to forums to spout drivel...Mainly becuz they imagination has hit a road block and they cant figure something out,,such as how to beat light mechs.

to the 2nd type of player..we light mechs will cont. to feast upon you till you figure it out..we will lick the tears from you're face..we will use the extra salt from you're tears for our fries.until you accept the fact that lights are not broken..or relise that this game may not be you're speed and perhaps should try hello kitty online.

P.S,,,after youve shut down from overheat...if you listen carefully in game you can hear the light mechs singing and laughing like sprites in the wind =)

Edited by SplashDown, 07 March 2016 - 10:30 AM.

[sycocys]

Lugh, on 07 March 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

I am all for implementing Knockdowns so we can drink in the tears of woefully bad light mech pilots. Yes, I am talking to you, you crotch humping scrub.

I want knockdowns back too - but I also am willing to admit that I was a part of the reason it got removed.

Full speed Commando tackles. And if my team was dead, you could literally out dance 4-5 mechs brawling because they didn't want to trip.

[MrMadguy]

Usually something like that happens:

Every large laser is 9dmg and Firestarter has about LA+RA+LT+RT+ST 100 front armor total (in case of more even distribution, Light pilots usually prefer) - about 20 armor per part. So one 3xLL Alpha can core every part of Firestarter. Yeah, some shots were definitely partial - those, that happened before Firestarter overheated for example. But others, that were accurate enough - definitely not enough dmg registered. For example a lots of 100% damage at the beginning of the fights (right after hugging) obviously haven't registered on Firestarter's STs. Same happened at the end of the fight - dmg registers of arms, but not STs.

Edited by MrMadguy, 07 March 2016 - 11:02 AM.

[Mawai]

MrMadguy, on 07 March 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

No. It happens, because players learned, that it's pointless to shoot Lights, as they have more survivability, than said Direwhales.

And I usually like to ruin this Light exploiters' game via coring their STs via one precious shot, while they are still unaware, that they're being focused and can even stop moving - first shot is extremely important against Lights, don't fail it. Yeah, I'm not able to kill them anyway, but they are used to get 0.0001 dmg per shot and be able to stretch their 20 armor for entire duration of match, so cored ST, that can cause instant death, usually forces them to hide in the corner of the map, as they love to do so much. Yeah, it will be harder to catch them at the end, but at least they won't disturb you during match.

LOL. You can tell that to all the lights I have killed that tried to take on my Jager by running around it in circles. I am using ballistics, at close range ... but I can still hit and kill lights. Aim for the legs to start with unless they have a red CT. Also, don't aim at the mech at close range unless they are running toward or away from you since by the time the round gets there the odds are good that they will have moved on. (Combination of ping and time of flight effects against a fast target).

Some folks seem to have trouble hitting lights and others don't have that much. Certainly, when I pilot lights I know that they aren't nearly as tanky as any assault. One wrong turn, one wrong move, two opponents who know what they are doing ... my light is toast.

On the other hand, anyone can hit a Direwhale. (it is called a whale for a reason). Direwhales are extremely vulnerable to focus fire since you can usually hit any part of that mech you want to hit since it is big and not moving very fast.

Finally, if the heavies and assaults would stay with their team mates or at least their lance ... lights become much less of a threat ... several mechs against a light and it goes down fast. However, a lone assault dragging at the back can become fodder for a decent light pilot ... all the fault of the assault for playing badly and NOT playing with their team. (At the very least every mech starts with a lance and you need to try to keep up with them ... if you can't say something and hope that someone keeps you company until you catch up).

[mogs01gt]

MrMadguy, on 07 March 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

Usually something like that happens:

Every large laser is 9dmg and Firestarter has about LA+RA+LT+RT+ST 100 front armor total (in case of more even distribution, Light pilots usually prefer) - about 20 armor per part. So one 3xLL Alpha can core every part of Firestarter. Yeah, some shots were definitely partial - those, that happened before Firestarter overheated for example. But others, that were accurate enough - definitely not enough dmg registered. For example a lots of 100% damage at the beginning of the fights (right after hugging) obviously haven't registered on Firestarter's STs. Same happened at the end of the fight - dmg registers of arms, but not STs.

That is ******* ridiculous! That last alpha should have killed that mech!

[Mechteric]

Yes there's some hit detection wonkiness for sure...

But I'm just wondering how many people who complain about lights have never even driven in a fast light mech before?

[Mawai]

Novakaine, on 07 March 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

A guy on a freaking bicycle with a rifle is not going to out tank a damn Abrams battle tank period.
Yet match after match you see a Locust taking a Direwolf.
It's still ridiculousness.
Oh a side note you two guys who threatened to hunt me down chop off my head.
Ya can't have it nah nah

Bad analogy.

20 tons vs 100 tons for mechs is a factor of 5 ... your example 200 lbs vs 68 short tons = 136,000 pounds = 680 times.

Lets see ..

Put an M1 against a faster and more maneuverable 12 to 15 ton LAV armed with an autocannon and missiles. Take out automated tracking and firing systems (since MW doesn't have those). Also knock the ranges down on the weapons since an AC20 can only fire 270m (absolutely ridiculous ) which minimizes the chances of the M1 to destroy the target at long range unless they have really good aim.

Which is going to win? 1:1 ... the LAV has a decent chance to get in close and kill the M1 or disable it .. hit the engine compartment from behind etc. Put another M1 nearby and the LAV is likely toast unless both M1 have bad aim.

See any similarities?

Not only that ... give the guy on the bicycle enough friends to even the tonnage gap and a bunch of anti tank missiles and the M1 is again toast ... though that is bringing infantry at close range into the question which is not in MWO.

So bottom line ... your analogy was bogus ... this is Battletech/MWO where fantasy physics prevails, where a 20 ton mech can engage a 100 ton mech and if it can stay close and behind the opponent it stands a decent chance of surviving. It usually takes a VERY long time to kill assaults ... unless those assault pilots have put no armor on their rear torso in which case that was their choice in creating a vulnerability or the assault wanders off on their own which is also creating a vulnerability.

[Mawai]

MrMadguy, on 07 March 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

Usually something like that happens:

Every large laser is 9dmg and Firestarter has about LA+RA+LT+RT+ST 100 front armor total (in case of more even distribution, Light pilots usually prefer) - about 20 armor per part. So one 3xLL Alpha can core every part of Firestarter. Yeah, some shots were definitely partial - those, that happened before Firestarter overheated for example. But others, that were accurate enough - definitely not enough dmg registered. For example a lots of 100% damage at the beginning of the fights (right after hugging) obviously haven't registered on Firestarter's STs. Same happened at the end of the fight - dmg registers of arms, but not STs.

I have seen that happen and it is very frustrating. I watched the video through and I wondered what was going on ... so I watched it through again going frame by frame when the lasers fired.

You know what? He MISSES .. a LOT. Usually some part of the beam duration is on the target during some part of the shot but often this is 1/3 or less for each laser. The aim point is on the target then the reticle drifts off the target ... and the lasers converge on the terrain behind the target with only one laser hitting if that. On top of that the target is constantly jumping, turning and moving ... laser fire hits both arms and center torso or legs ... 9 points spread over 5 components (in some of the torso mounted laser shots).

I didn't really see any of that when I watched it at regular speed since my eye was caught by the times he seemed to be hitting and not by all the time he wasn't hitting.

Finally, when the light mech over heats ... he lines up the shot and does a full 27 to the center torso ... that is really clear ... the rest of the time I don't think it was possible to ascribe any lack of hitting to hit registration vs bad aim and a nimbly moving target.


Anyway, very few of the videos that I have seen that are supposed to demonstrate bad hit registration actually do that ... though there are a few examples out there I believe.

Edited by Mawai, 07 March 2016 - 12:10 PM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

How man of you people actually shoot for the thigh on light mechs?

Cheetahs drop like a sack of oranges these days, I don't understamd this frustration.