168 replies to this topic

[GreyNovember]

Kaisha, on 08 March 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

You clearly know enough about how this works to answer that question on your own. I'm wondering why you feel the need for him to spell it out? Its like you're playing games to try to appear clever, but you're just being an ***.

I could go out and say outright I think he's lying about his data, but then I have no proof that he is unless he addresses it directly.

So I wanted an answer. Yours was basically what I was waiting for. Fair enough on the semantics.

I would like to point out however, since we're in the topic anyway, that none of those points applied to lights specifically. Given the points you presented, a theoretical Atlas with the speed of a Locust moving across open terrain parallel to a firing mech, would then also display these symptoms; regardless of whether or not someone's aim was "completely perfect".

[Kaisha]

GreyNovember, on 08 March 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

I could go out and say outright I think he's lying about his data, but then I have no proof that he is unless he addresses it directly.

So I wanted an answer. Yours was basically what I was waiting for. Fair enough on the semantics.

I would like to point out however, since we're in the topic anyway, that none of those points applied to lights specifically. Given the points you presented, a theoretical Atlas with the speed of a Locust moving across open terrain parallel to a firing mech, would then also display these symptoms; regardless of whether or not someone's aim was "completely perfect".

Of course its not only lights. It would just be more obvious on lights due to their higher speeds and smaller hit boxes. But lets not split hairs here, sure the OP was 'fix light hit boxes', but clearly someone who's not a Comp Sci major/has a background in programming isn't going to know the details. But that doesn't mean they don't notice something is wrong. We do need to fix light hit regs... and medium regs... and heavy regs... while were at it lets fix ALL of them. If lights are then too weak buff them after the fact. Relying on bugs as a balancing factor is just bad game design, as they are not applied consistently.

[GreyNovember]

Kaisha, on 08 March 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

Of course its not only lights. It would just be more obvious on lights due to their higher speeds and smaller hit boxes. But lets not split hairs here, sure the OP was 'fix light hit boxes', but clearly someone who's not a Comp Sci major/has a background in programming isn't going to know the details. But that doesn't mean they don't notice something is wrong. We do need to fix light hit regs... and medium regs... and heavy regs... while were at it lets fix ALL of them. If lights are then too weak buff them after the fact. Relying on bugs as a balancing factor is just bad game design, as they are not applied consistently.

Then we are in agreement up to this point.

Going off from there, the OP's second solution, while it probably would produce results, is unfair to lights in particular; unless every engine is now going to give mechs much less movement and twist speed.

[MrMadguy]

GreyNovember, on 08 March 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

I could go out and say outright I think he's lying about his data, but then I have no proof that he is unless he addresses it directly.

So I wanted an answer. Yours was basically what I was waiting for. Fair enough on the semantics.

I would like to point out however, since we're in the topic anyway, that none of those points applied to lights specifically. Given the points you presented, a theoretical Atlas with the speed of a Locust moving across open terrain parallel to a firing mech, would then also display these symptoms; regardless of whether or not someone's aim was "completely perfect".

Proof was already given earlier in this thread - you just need to L2Read.

Some things in this world are counterintuitive: that's why we have to use scientific approach - not empirical one. 30FPS server frame rate may seem to be enough for your eyes. But it's not enough to handle bullet flight physics. I know, that video would explain it better, but I can't find any and don't want to make it by myself.

Real world: oooooooooooooooooooooooooX-----------
Server : o---o---o---o---o---o---o---o---o--Xo---o---o

So you may imagine, how complex it will become, if you'll need to track perpendicularly moving target. Just imagine, that server is similar to you, when you're playing with 1FPS. Quantization puts some limitations on how small/fast targets can be in order to be reliably hittable. If you exceed this limitations - hitreg becomes unreliable.



Now imagine, that not only what you see is affected by FPS - but how physics work too.

Edited by MrMadguy, 08 March 2016 - 05:31 AM.

[GreyNovember]

MrMadguy, on 08 March 2016 - 05:03 AM, said:

Proof was already given earlier in this thread - you just need to L2Read.

If you're not going to actually give me the proof you claim exists, do just say so.

Nobody is contesting that's how an update loop works. We get it.

I am still waiting on your sources, by the way. Where did you derive that the server updates at that number?

[Kaisha]

GreyNovember, on 08 March 2016 - 05:03 AM, said:

Then we are in agreement up to this point.

Going off from there, the OP's second solution, while it probably would produce results, is unfair to lights in particular; unless every engine is now going to give mechs much less movement and twist speed.

I certainly do not want to see lights gutted, and they do need to be able to dance otherwise they can easily get destroyed. It would be nice to see a middle ground between nigh indestructible and completely useless.

[MrMadguy]

GreyNovember, on 08 March 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

If you're not going to actually give me the proof you claim exists, do just say so.

Nobody is contesting that's how an update loop works. We get it.

I am still waiting on your sources, by the way. Where did you derive that the server updates at that number?

Source thread was deleted by PGI due to obvious reasons: only quotes from this thread still exist.

[GreyNovember]

MrMadguy, on 08 March 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

Source thread was deleted by PGI due to obvious reasons: only quotes from this thread still exist.

There we are, thank you.

[SplashDown]

MrMadguy, on 08 March 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

Straw-man. Correct fallacy? Or not? Don't use fact, that isn't connected with problem, as argument, that confirms your statement. Unpopularity of something can't be used as justification for making it OP, as unpopularity can be caused via other factors - may be majority of players just want to play big stompy robots? Forcing players to play something, that doesn't suit their playstyle, just because you need to fill your game with this thing? That's, what is called "bring the class - not the player" bad game design. It's same, as telling, that laser vomit - is the reason, why Meta 'Mech for Meta Map selection is impossible. Laser vomit - is weapon balance problem, while 'Mech selection - is Map design problem. This two aren't connected.

^^^^^ This is called reaching

Now ive just gone back and re-read all these post in this thread..including my own colorful commentary
and ive noticed a trend..
1st) you have presented what is a known game wide bug and try'd to localize it as a lightmech problem only..this info has been examined..by other competent educated players and proven wrong.
2nd) You then intro'd what you claimed to be video evidence. This to was examined and analised by more competent educated players and AGAIN proven wrong.
3rd) you offer the quote at top of this page..which is little more than reaching for the stars in a vain attempt to justify and already dis-proven argument.
4th) 90% of the players that have posted in this thread have weighed,,measured and found you're argument lacking any real substance..These same players have offered TACTICS and LOGIC,,where you and you're small following have offered nothing but THEORY and CONJECTURE..for a negligible argument

I do not think you are a dumb person..clearly you are educated to some degree...i do feel that you're attempt to justify an already dis-proven...defeated and dead argument..Gives me the impression that you lack the education to admit when you are wrong.OR you are simply trolling at this point,

P.S. I look forward to killing you in game with my light mech har har yarrrrr

Edited by SplashDown, 08 March 2016 - 08:12 AM.

[Nyte Kitsune]

I do have to agree that lights need to be tweaked though, my Brawler Atlas (2x LB 10x, 3x SRM6, 2x Med Laser) 3 full alphas into an Arctic Cheetah, Point blank range, The result, Hardly any damage to the Cheetah, The Cheetah continued to run around me until I was deead while trying to alternate fire to "Cool off" after the 3 salvos.

Anyone claiming this is "Working as intended" is FOS. NO light should be able to win a brawl against any Assault after being hit with 3 alphas, and still win, UNLESS that assault had been stripped of most of its armor or attacked from behind where its armor is thinnest (As much as I hate to admit it, those IIC Jenner 6x SRM 6, make legit kills on my assaults from behind), but again, from in front they are able to take more damage than most of my heavies and assaults.

So YES, the lights are broken in their favor and it needs to be addressed by PGI.

[SplashDown]

Nyte Kitsune, on 08 March 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

I do have to agree that lights need to be tweaked though, my Brawler Atlas (2x LB 10x, 3x SRM6, 2x Med Laser) 3 full alphas into an Arctic Cheetah, Point blank range, The result, Hardly any damage to the Cheetah, The Cheetah continued to run around me until I was deead while trying to alternate fire to "Cool off" after the 3 salvos.

Anyone claiming this is "Working as intended" is FOS. NO light should be able to win a brawl against any Assault after being hit with 3 alphas, and still win, UNLESS that assault had been stripped of most of its armor or attacked from behind where its armor is thinnest (As much as I hate to admit it, those IIC Jenner 6x SRM 6, make legit kills on my assaults from behind), but again, from in front they are able to take more damage than most of my heavies and assaults.

So YES, the lights are broken in their favor and it needs to be addressed by PGI.

OR the majority of you're dmage missed..wich has already been shown in this thread to be the case.

I never aproach a big mech from the front as it means certain death..i allways manuver to the side or rear...if i aproach an atlas head on i will get 1-2 shoted 100% of the time...only way a player survives that is if you're dps did not in fact hit the mech.

Edited by SplashDown, 08 March 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[MrMadguy]

As I said in another thread. Look, I'm just a player - I don't even have to know, why it happens.
1) Lights are proven to be too hard to hit by average player. There is simple game development rule: game should be hard due to being challenging - not due to having bad game design. Artificial aiming problems, like aiming at tiny pixel or Rorschach test-like hit boxes, that move at speed of sound - is obviously bad game design. Good games have good visual feedback: if I visually see, that I hit - then I should physically hit too.
2) L2P argument is proven to be invalid, cuz when one player have to L2P in order to succeed and other doesn't - that's, what is called imbalance. Paladins weren't OP back in WotLK - you just needed to L2P. Great argument, yeah.
3) I don't care, how it will be fixed. It's #3 on my list of conditions (fix balance), that have to be met, if PGI wants me to return into this game. I don't want to see Tier 1s in my matches. I don't want to see Therma, Polar and Alpine in my matches. I don't want to see Lights in my matches (like it was back in open beta). Sorry.

Edited by MrMadguy, 08 March 2016 - 08:45 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MrMadguy, on 08 March 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

1) Lights are proven to be too hard to hit by average player. There is simple game development rule: game should be hard due to being challenging - not due to having bad game design.

This isn't because of bad game design, it is because players just don't understand good ways to combat lights or how to lagshoot. The only way they can try to correct this is to look into the technical reasons why lasers have more troubles with hit reg against lights and require lagshooting on occasion, but projectiles are not as susceptible (HSR and pin point hit scan don't mix too well together).

[GreyNovember]

Nyte Kitsune, on 08 March 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

I do have to agree that lights need to be tweaked though, my Brawler Atlas (2x LB 10x, 3x SRM6, 2x Med Laser) 3 full alphas into an Arctic Cheetah, Point blank range, The result, Hardly any damage to the Cheetah, The Cheetah continued to run around me until I was deead while trying to alternate fire to "Cool off" after the 3 salvos.

I found your problem, methinks.

You have two damage over time weapons that do 10 damage in total.

You have two large ballistics that do spread damage.

You have 3 of the widest spreading SRMs on your atlas, without Artemis to tighten it up.

And you're trying to kill a light known for being skinny and agile. Also, you're an atlas that has two juicy side targets.

You have weapons that spread everything, everywhere. This is equivalent to me in a Jenner F walking up to your atlas, wiggling a whole bunch of medium lasers at you all across your body, then saying you took 3 of my alphas and didn't even lose a part.

[dario03]

Tarogato, on 07 March 2016 - 12:11 AM, said:

-----> https://obsproject.com/download#mp

Merry Christmas. Now you can all actually show PGI what you're seeing. If you can't show them, it doesn't exist. Record every match.

No, you're not allowed to complain about "muh frameratez!" because I play on a fu**** laptop that can't get 30fps most of the time. You have no excuse, go start recording.

I actually do record already. But I don't keep the videos forever. I also don't think hitreg is any where near as bad as these threads make them out to be and afaik pgi is still working on hsr so I haven't felt the need to upload the videos.
Are you saying hitreg is 100% perfect at all times? Because I didn't think even pgi claimed that, if they have then maybe I'll take the time to upload a video. Well a video the next time I see hsr clearly fail, which is rare.

Edited by dario03, 08 March 2016 - 10:40 AM.

[mailin]

I have a question for those who claim to be in the know. If a light moving at whatever speed is too fast for the server to render the video properly, that's only a video issue right? The server still knows either exactly or at least more accurately where the light is than the video may show it does, correct? I have to believe this is the case.

Also, as has been previously stated, the light queue used to be slightly higher before PSR was introduced. After it's introduction the numbers never have consistently achieved their previous level. If lots of players were playing lights before and there are fewer now, what does that say? And very often the light queue is single digit percentages. Surely, if lights were as invincible as some claim the queue would be consistently higher.

[Green Mamba]

https://www.reddit.c...servers_mwo_is/ I found this

Online Board game tick rates

Edited by Green Mamba, 08 March 2016 - 06:34 PM.

[SQW]

mailin, on 08 March 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

Surely, if lights were as invincible as some claim the queue would be consistently higher.

The grumbling are mainly from sub-par Assault rambos who can't aim, likes to only load weapons that are good against big mechs but lousy against lights, likes to run off on his own without support AND takes offense at being bested by a mech 1/3 of his size.

2 KGCs vs 2 ACH. If the KGCs sticks together, guess who comes out on top? Even 1v1 with an Atlas loaded properly with MPLs, SRM 4s and AC10/20 (instead of LLs and LRMs ) will cream an ACH.

[GreyNovember]

mailin, on 08 March 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

I have a question for those who claim to be in the know. If a light moving at whatever speed is too fast for the server to render the video properly, that's only a video issue right? The server still knows either exactly or at least more accurately where the light is than the video may show it does, correct? I have to believe this is the case.

The server is not rendering a video. Object movement across 3D space not rendering isn't the issue; otherwise you would never see PPC bolts. They move significantly faster than any given mech. Hell, LRMS move faster, and you see those coming a kilometer away. The difference is you're not trying to pick them apart piece by piece when you see them.

What happens is your instance of the game draws what you see, while telling the server what you're doing whenever you press buttons, and what's happening to you.

The server meanwhile, is recieving yours, and everyone else's data all at once, but is not actually participating in the match like a player. Think of it like a GM when you're playing a board game. He decides whether or not the laser you threw downrange, after adjusting for both yours, and your target's ping, actually hit.

If an inconsistency is detected, the server will tell your client immediately " No, no that didn't happen. " and this can take the form of anything from you not seeing someone take damage, to you getting rubberbanded and walking into a wall because all this time, your movement on your client and on the server didn't match up because you were dropping packets or something.

The mechs around you are in the positions the server is aware of; much like how your mech is rendered to everyone else according to where the server says you are.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

SplashDown, on 08 March 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

OR the majority of you're dmage missed..wich has already been shown in this thread to be the case.

I never aproach a big mech from the front as it means certain death..i allways manuver to the side or rear...if i aproach an atlas head on i will get 1-2 shoted 100% of the time...only way a player survives that is if you're dps did not in fact hit the mech.

yes the majority of the damage will be missed because it never registers


and it seems to be a seasonal thing,server load issue most likely