34 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

If you're so decent pilots, then why can't you support your team mates, when they're still alive?

I guess, survival squirrel problem - is more psychological problem. It happens really often, that when something is OP in the game, then players, who use it, unconsciously start to overestimate their skill and become unaware, that they're doing something wrong from other players' point of view. For example it happened with Paladins in Wow back in WotLK, when all Paladins thought, that they are all super skilled players. Same happens with Huntards now - playing Huntard at low level is so brainless, that such players are completely unaware, that pulling everything they see in 5ppls - is actually bad thing.

Same here. Root of this problem - is in invulnerability of some 'Mechs, that gives you false feeling of safety and belief into your own skill. This should be fixed via size/speed ratio normalization for all 'Mechs to threshold, that can be handled by servers without severe quantization errors.

Edited by MrMadguy, 06 March 2016 - 07:14 AM.

[MerryIguana]

MrMadguy, on 06 March 2016 - 01:32 AM, said:

If you think, that you're too good to die - then PVP games aren't for you, cuz PVP players should be able to accept their loss with honor.

Irony overload.

[Tarogato]

MrMadguy, on 06 March 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

If you're so decent pilots, then why can't you support your team mates, when they're still alive?

I guess, survival squirrel problem - is more psychological problem. It happens really often, that when something is OP in the game, then players, who use it, unconsciously start to overestimate their skill and become unaware, that they're doing something wrong from other players' point of view. For example it happened with Paladins in Wow back in WotLK, when all Paladins thought, that they are all super skilled players. Same happens with Huntards now - playing Huntard at low level is so brainless, that such players are completely unaware, that pulling everything they see in 5ppls - is actually bad thing.

Same here. Root of this problem - is in invulnerability of some 'Mechs, that gives you false feeling of safety and belief into your own skill. This should be fixed via size/speed ratio normalization for all 'Mechs to threshold, that can be handled by servers without severe quantization errors.

lol, you're really going with the "fast mechs are broken because netcode" argument? I will guarantee you that if the netcode in this game was 100% perfect and client-authoritative, people would still not be able to hit light mechs reliably. I would even go as far as to suggest that up to at least 171kph in this game hit registration today is already more than adequate, it is nearly spot-on perfect (hit-registrations bugs occur to stationary targets as well, the issues are not unique to fast mechs). The fact of the matter is that this isn't a traditional twitchy first-person shooter, the aiming reticule has some serious weight to it and you need to guide it around rather than just flick your mouse to line up a shot. This makes aiming more cumbersome and tracking a fast target is a bit more challenging. Combine this with the fact that the fast targets are usually the smallest targets, and that most people focus the big threatening targets first, you end up with people in light mechs who frequently survive until the end of the match if they play smart - hence your "survival squirrel problem."

And don't pretend "survival squirrel" is something specific to light mechs either. What is with your vendetta against anybody who wants to play smart and preserve their mechs instead of walking out in front of the enemies and making themselves an easy target to dispatch? Why do you think that anybody who does this is simply somebody who "can't support...teammates when they're still alive?" ?

[MrMadguy]

Tarogato, on 06 March 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

lol, you're really going with the "fast mechs are broken because netcode" argument? I will guarantee you that if the netcode in this game was 100% perfect and client-authoritative, people would still not be able to hit light mechs reliably. I would even go as far as to suggest that up to at least 171kph in this game hit registration today is already more than adequate, it is nearly spot-on perfect (hit-registrations bugs occur to stationary targets as well, the issues are not unique to fast mechs). The fact of the matter is that this isn't a traditional twitchy first-person shooter, the aiming reticule has some serious weight to it and you need to guide it around rather than just flick your mouse to line up a shot. This makes aiming more cumbersome and tracking a fast target is a bit more challenging. Combine this with the fact that the fast targets are usually the smallest targets, and that most people focus the big threatening targets first, you end up with people in light mechs who frequently survive until the end of the match if they play smart - hence your "survival squirrel problem."

And don't pretend "survival squirrel" is something specific to light mechs either. What is with your vendetta against anybody who wants to play smart and preserve their mechs instead of walking out in front of the enemies and making themselves an easy target to dispatch? Why do you think that anybody who does this is simply somebody who "can't support...teammates when they're still alive?" ?

In neighbouring thread I have a qoute from Russ Bullock, that says, that this game has severs, that run at 30 frames per second.

So here is table: speed (kph) - speed (mps) - meters per frame quantization error (meters)
10 - 2.78 - 0.09
20 - 5.56 - 0.19
30 - 8.33 - 0.28
40 - 11.11 - 0.37
50 - 13.89 - 0.46
60 - 16.67 - 0.56
70 - 19.44 - 0.65
80 - 22.22 - 0.74
90 - 25.00 - 0.83
100 - 27.78 - 0.93
110 - 30.56 - 1.02
120 - 33.33 - 1.11
130 - 36.11 - 1.20
140 - 38.89 - 1.30
150 - 41.67 - 1.39
160 - 44.44 - 1.48
170 - 47.22 - 1.57
180 - 50.00 - 1.67
190 - 52.78 - 1.76
200 - 55.56 - 1.85

You should know, that if size of target is smaller then quantization error, then target can become ghost - i.e. projectiles may start passing through it.

And this is 'Mech position quantization error only - there are also other quantization errors, like projectile position quantization error, twist angle quantization error, etc. So if you try to implement something, your servers can't handle - then it's completely your fault. The fact, that we have so small Lights and so high speed caps - is intentional conscious implementation of flawed hit reg. And it's we, who have to suffer from it.

Edited by MrMadguy, 06 March 2016 - 08:55 AM.

[Soldier91]

You shouldn't be getting that from someone on your team.
Ignore the enemy team. Sometimes when I'm playing and I think we're losing or are getting close to it I playfully taunt the other team, you'd be surprised how often it works and they start making mistakes.

[Prokust]

When i am the last one alive and people start getting salty in chat/voip...the more patient i get with picking my shots....cuz i got all the time in the world also if this makes people like mr. Madguy even more mad...i am fine with it and got a big extraportion of fun

[p4r4g0n]

Wait till the re-sized locust comes out ... it is currently 12% over-sized O.o

[nehebkau]

Chuck Jager, on 05 March 2016 - 10:17 PM, said:

If it is the end of a match and a player is above 65% and trying hit and run tactics, there is an obvious reason they are being not so nice. The time to help is over.

Also on Terra Therma, not pushing with the group at the start of a PUG match almost always results in a loss with the cowards still hiding at the end. There are other tactics, but they are not as well suited for non-group play.

I am not saying that other play styles are good or bad, but on Terra the first hard push is an easy win or if both groups push together it is a fun brawl. It really sux to have 2/3 of a team sit at the doors or go scout.

I just go inside and if the team does not follow, I will die asap to not enable cowardly play and make my heart beat too hard.

...and i have won 100s of matches in this exact same situation, some down 6 to 1.

[GeoFalke]

Lupis Volk, on 05 March 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

So on most maps i notice that "clutches" are encouraged. Most times you get cheered on and stuff. Now i've noticed on Terra Therma That's the complete opposite. If your on that map and dare to "clutch" it you get threats of reports and of being team killed if you meet people again.

This happened to me while i was in my Ice Ferret. I was doing hit and run tactics on the enemy on Terra Therma. Two unsavoury people (one on my team one on the enemy team) both accused me of "dragging the game out" and the person on my team went so far as to "remember his name so i can team kill him". once i died i did file a text chat harassment report against these two players.

This is frankly disgusting and disturbing behaviour.

bringing the conversation back to the topic, I'd wager that it's because a decent chunk of the playerbase hates dark and/or high ambient heat maps with a passion and prefer to massvote for small, cold, well lit maps, and get upset when their favorite mech gets put on a hot map like therma, caustic, or desert, and they LOATHE it when someone who didn't yolo out tries to do hit and runs to whittle down the other team and render a blow out loss into a win because they'd rather have their fav mech back and take a loss.

personally I adore hot maps in most of my mechs because I tend to build more balistic based mechs, and even on my laser boat mech I find hot maps fun because you have to actively think about your shots instead of just hammering away as fast as possible.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the people who rage at you for trying to save the match.

[Catra Lanis]

Nyte Kitsune, on 06 March 2016 - 01:44 AM, said:

When you're the "Last man standing", the only time it's viable to use hit and run tacticsis when the other team is also down to its last 1 or 2 mechs, if its 1 vs 6 or more, do your team a favor and just end it.

Last man standing have the right to try and get a kill or two. As long as he is playing no one has the right to demand that he suicides.

[Lupis Volk]

MrMadguy, on 06 March 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

If you're so decent pilots, then why can't you support your team mates, when they're still alive?

I guess, survival squirrel problem - is more psychological problem. It happens really often, that when something is OP in the game, then players, who use it, unconsciously start to overestimate their skill and become unaware, that they're doing something wrong from other players' point of view. For example it happened with Paladins in Wow back in WotLK, when all Paladins thought, that they are all super skilled players. Same happens with Huntards now - playing Huntard at low level is so brainless, that such players are completely unaware, that pulling everything they see in 5ppls - is actually bad thing.

Same here. Root of this problem - is in invulnerability of some 'Mechs, that gives you false feeling of safety and belief into your own skill. This should be fixed via size/speed ratio normalization for all 'Mechs to threshold, that can be handled by servers without severe quantization errors.

here's the thing. You think we're not supporting the team, where in fact we are. sounds like your massively butthurt about something. Had too many lights outplay you hmm?

[Chimera_]

Personally, I have no issue with people who drag out matches while actually fighting back. My problem is with those who are either stripped and have no chance of winning, or simply don't want to die and run away without trying to shoot back.

I was in a match recently where our last guy was an SRM commando without any ammo left. He just ran around the map, forcing the slower enemy mechs to chase him everywhere. He had nothing he could do, no way to possibly win the match.

Usually if I'm the last guy standing and heavily damaged I'll just hit override and alpha everything I see til I blow up.

[Tarogato]

MrMadguy, on 06 March 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

In neighbouring thread I have a qoute from Russ Bullock, that says, that this game has severs, that run at 30 frames per second.

So here is table: speed (kph) - speed (mps) - meters per frame quantization error (meters)
10 - 2.78 - 0.09
20 - 5.56 - 0.19
30 - 8.33 - 0.28
40 - 11.11 - 0.37
50 - 13.89 - 0.46
60 - 16.67 - 0.56
70 - 19.44 - 0.65
80 - 22.22 - 0.74
90 - 25.00 - 0.83
100 - 27.78 - 0.93
110 - 30.56 - 1.02
120 - 33.33 - 1.11
130 - 36.11 - 1.20
140 - 38.89 - 1.30
150 - 41.67 - 1.39
160 - 44.44 - 1.48
170 - 47.22 - 1.57
180 - 50.00 - 1.67
190 - 52.78 - 1.76
200 - 55.56 - 1.85

You should know, that if size of target is smaller then quantization error, then target can become ghost - i.e. projectiles may start passing through it.

And this is 'Mech position quantization error only - there are also other quantization errors, like projectile position quantization error, twist angle quantization error, etc. So if you try to implement something, your servers can't handle - then it's completely your fault. The fact, that we have so small Lights and so high speed caps - is intentional conscious implementation of flawed hit reg. And it's we, who have to suffer from it.

And now let me remind you of something... do you know how large of objects we're talking about here? Mechs are huge. If they were scaled to be the height of humans, than maybe you'd have a point here, because then the quantisation errors would be relevant - 1.30 meters per frame would be a huge deal, about the entire height of a human figure. But in MWO, the mechs that we are shooting at are five (Arctic Cheetah) to ten times (Atlas) larger than human figures and MWO is still making calculations in terms of the same old units (unless PGI specifically stated somewhere that they reduced the resolution, but I don't remember anybody saying anything about that). It's not unlike taking a human-scaled shooter and increasing the unit resolution by as much as ten times, which would actually make hit registration much more accurate.

[Tarogato]

MrMadguy, on 06 March 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

If you're so decent pilots, then why can't you support your team mates, when they're still alive?

Btw, in regards to your survival squirrel conundrum, I refer you to this: http://mwomercs.com/...eve-in-destiny/

He avoids taking damage the entire match and winds up the last surviving mech on his team. Isn't that what you'd consider somebody who isn't supporting his team? Somebody who is the worst team player? A selfish solo player?

[Felicitatem Parco]

If you are the last man standing, then power to you for staying alive and fighting. Please continue cranking out the assists for your dead teammates as you kill more enemies. I know many players do not know this but they get assists for every enemy you kill (assuming your teammates managed to engage them before they died).

Ignore everyone in this thread who says that staying alive and fighting is disrespectful to your team. Report anyone who harasses you for fighting when you are alive. Hell, report anyone who gives you a hard time for shutting down and hiding if it means running the clock to a victory, because the TOS clearly states that you CAN shut down and hide if it forces a win by timer expiration.

On the other hand, report anyone who hides and shuts down to force a defeat on their own team. And report anyone who runs around without weapons or something without engaging the enemy if it forces a defeat upon their own team by timer expiration.


To reitterate: the last man fighting should be fighting if you are behind. If your team is behind and you are not fighting (read: do not intend to fight for the rest of the match), then you are in contempt of the game rules. If you rush to your death simply to end the match, then do so with your guns blazing or I will report you for suicide abuse...

... I want my assists, damnit.