124 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

For those concerned about Mech nerfs, here are some more thing to consider.

Look at the Arctic Cheetah and see what it could still run under my proposed system:
ECM
3xSPL
1xSRM6
1xSRM4

It's alpha is still 38 though, keeping it towards the top of the pile in terms of best Lights.

This isn't quite right, because of the contrast in firing behavior of the SRMs and cSPLs, you wouldn't really get to use these as effectively.
The best light would be this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...60663c88fb7aa29

Why? Because mechs that were once able to kite it enough to finally win against it, would be unable to kite it since their firepower is no longer as useful in the same sort of engagement.

Oh and don't forget the Jenny IIC which while not as powerful as the Oxide, would still be useful against other lights since they would lack the ability to kite.

[Nightmare1]

Some people are probably going to be upset that their meta laser cheese vomit builds, like the Cheetah, will get nerfed with power draw, but that's the whole point of power draw. It's supposed to break the meta and foster more diverse builds. Perhaps some pilots will be upset that they must now learn how to fire two different weapon systems (Example: Lasers and SRMs). Well, that's more MechWarrior like anyways, and it's really not that hard to do. It breaks the one-button meta and forces pilots to actually pilot. In the case of the Jenners, both are glass cannons, and considerably less threatening as potential meta Mechs than the current Arctic Cheetah.

By not tying power draw to missiles and ballistics, diverse loadouts are fostered and many Mechs can still carry reasonably powerful alphas. Sure, some Mechs will rise to the top as being more competitive than others, but that's okay. This happens with every game and can't be evaded. However, the result is that the new "meta Mechs" will be less overpowered than their predecessors which existed prior to Power Draw.

Let's look at the Hunchbacks. They're a very diverse chassis group, so good examples can be used,

I have a HBK-4P with a Standard 275, 6xMLs, 3xSPLs. With the power draw system, this would mean that I have a power draw limit of 27.5 and a power draw of 42. I could continue running the Mech like this, but I wouldn't be able to alpha. I could fire the SPLs together as a group, and I could fire up to five of the MLs at a time while standing still since the movement penalty is 3 on the power draw. That means that, at most, I could only fire about 25 points of damage at a time before waiting for the power draw to recharge. That's not bad, actually. I still move over 90 kph.

I already talked about the HBK-4G in a previous post.

The HBK-GI could keep its Gauss Rifle with an associated power draw of 15. This is pretty close to what I run now: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...93b30f26b1e577d So, that would mean I have a power draw capacity of 25.5. The Gauss would count as 15 and the 3xMPLs would count as 18. I wouldn't be able to fire the Gauss and MPLs together. However, I could still fire the Gauss as quickly as it could reload for probably three or four shots, depending on how PGI enacts the cooldown/recharge mechanic. Movement penalty would be 3 of course. All in all, not a bad system I think.

The HBK-4SP: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...23213da930f8d13 That build would have a power draw capacity of 27.5 and a power draw of 25 while standing still. It still has an alpha of 50 damage points, but it's split between two different systems. Despite not having Ghost Heat on this build, you'll notice that it's still very hot. Movement costs 3 on the power draw, so pilots would need to fire their MLs in groups while on the move.

The 4J is very similar to the 4SP but with regard to LRMs instead of SRMs. The 4H is similar to the 4G but with regard to the AC/10 instead of the /20.

Overall, I think that this is a pretty good system. I was just spitballing the numbers initially, but they seem to be more effective than even I had anticipated.

Edited by Nightmare1, 09 March 2016 - 04:44 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

In the case of the Jenners, both are glass cannons, and considerably less threatening as potential meta Mechs than the current Arctic Cheetah.

In case you didn't know, the Oxide and Jenny IIC are both meta. Hell even the Wolfhound sees use now (though it is niche).

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

Overall, I think that this is a pretty good system. I was just spitballing the numbers initially, but they seem to be more effective than even I had anticipated.

Maybe it sounds effective in your head, because you don't play meta mechs anyway, but to those of us who do, this is still ripe for exploitation and less diversity than we have now. Why take a Hunchback outside maybe the 4SP (if it keeps its quirks) when you can just take an Splat Griffin like we currently do now? Another interesting mech that would actually make it past this, IS assaults with 3 PPCs and 2 AC5s (Highlanders and Banshees rejoice), mechs with energy only hardpoints would still sucks where as mixed energy and ballistics would be strong like they were in the poptart days. The AC5 Mauler would come out unscathed as well.

So really, we would just see a meta shift back to PPFLD and splat rather PPFLD/Lasers/Splat/Dakka all being viable.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 05:29 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

So really, we would just see a meta shift back to PPFLD and splat rather PPFLD/Lasers/Splat/Dakka all being viable.

This is my feeling as well, BUT we have to save the seals man! All other concerns are secondary, who needs variety?

The thing is, I think there are alot of armchair generals on here that don't even realize that PPFLD/Lasers/Splat/Dakka are all viable right now, for different situations. The general consensus is "All I see in the public queue (the one and only place where MWO game balance is apparent) is lasers, so I guess I'll bring lasers too". The ONLY weapon system that doesn't find its way into competitive play, is LRMs. You might have trouble finding AC10s or AC2s too I suppose, but the "Autocannon" as a whole is plentiful.

[Nightmare1]

Some pilots with limited vision and an addiction to the meta could be expected to oppose such a system. The fact that it breaks the meta upsets them. However, bring back dead Mechs, such as the Highlander, is actually a positive thing. Poptarting is dead, so there really isn't anything to fear all that much.

What's nice about the system, is that it does help the non-meta Mechs more than a different system would. Meta Mechs will always exist, but this would remove the teeth from the worst offenders.

Look at the Timber Wolf, for example. It would have a power draw of 37.5. You could still build a powerful Mech though: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e27cb419d98d04d However, now that alpha strike is distribute amongst three different systems. The Timby remains a powerful Heavy, but it's no longer a one-button, laser-vomit Mech. It's still hot to run and requires more skill to pilot. Tryhards will cry, but it would be better for the game overall.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 March 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

The thing is, I think there are alot of armchair generals on here that don't even realize that PPFLD/Lasers/Splat/Dakka are all viable right now, for different situations. The general consensus is "All I see in the public queue (the one and only place where MWO game balance is apparent) is lasers, so I guess I'll bring lasers too". The ONLY weapon system that doesn't find its way into competitive play, is LRMs. You might have trouble finding AC10s or AC2s too I suppose, but the "Autocannon" as a whole is plentiful.

This is why I feel the need to even argue, because the meta is the most diverse it has ever been, and people are still acting like "laser vomit for days" is still the meta.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

Some pilots with limited vision and an addiction to the meta could be expected to oppose such a system. The fact that it breaks the meta upsets them. However, bring back dead Mechs, such as the Highlander, is actually a positive thing. Poptarting is dead, so there really isn't anything to fear all that much.

What's nice about the system, is that it does help the non-meta Mechs more than a different system would. Meta Mechs will always exist, but this would remove the teeth from the worst offenders.

Look at the Timber Wolf, for example. It would have a power draw of 37.5. You could still build a powerful Mech though: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e27cb419d98d04d However, now that alpha strike is distribute amongst three different systems. The Timby remains a powerful Heavy, but it's no longer a one-button, laser-vomit Mech. It's still hot to run and requires more skill to pilot. Tryhards will cry, but it would be better for the game overall.

What does meta mean to you?

In my MRBC match set last night, I brought the following mechs:

4x SRM 6 Griffin (meta)
5 cERML Gauss Timber Wolf (This probably wasn't the best choice)
2 ER PPC Gauss Dragon Slayer (had to bring a victor, but we had the same build on a Timber Wolf in the drop)
Laser vomit Black Knight (meta)
5 AC5 Mauler (meta)

5 matches, I used lasers on 2 of them. Don't talk about "upsetting the meta" when you have no idea what the meta actually is. If you think Big laser vomit alphas is all there is, then you need to step back and watch some competitive matches to see what the meta right now actually is. You'll see that a variety of factors end up influencing what loadouts are actually used.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

Look at the Timber Wolf, for example. It would have a power draw of 37.5. You could still build a powerful Mech though: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e27cb419d98d04d

That build is horrendous, it is more like ERPPC/AC5 combos will be more likely, that or just good ol splat.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

What's nice about the system, is that it does help the non-meta Mechs more than a different system would. Meta Mechs will always exist, but this would remove the teeth from the worst offenders.

Actually, this is false, many of the best mechs would be unphased.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

However, bring back dead Mechs, such as the Highlander, is actually a positive thing.

At the cost of other variants, you aren't increasing the number of viable mechs, just switching which ones are good. At least for assaults, many lights would no longer be good.

[Nightmare1]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 March 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

What does meta mean to you?

In my MRBC match set last night, I brought the following mechs:

4x SRM 6 Griffin (meta)
5 cERML Gauss Timber Wolf (This probably wasn't the best choice)
2 ER PPC Gauss Dragon Slayer (had to bring a victor, but we had the same build on a Timber Wolf in the drop)
Laser vomit Black Knight (meta)
5 AC5 Mauler (meta)

5 matches, I used lasers on 2 of them. Don't talk about "upsetting the meta" when you have no idea what the meta actually is. If you think Big laser vomit alphas is all there is, then you need to step back and watch some competitive matches to see what the meta right now actually is. You'll see that a variety of factors end up influencing what loadouts are actually used.

I'll pardon that post since you're jumping into the middle of a discussion without looking at anything leading up to it.

There are individual metas and overarching metas. The overarching meta right now is energy weapons in the solo pug queue. In the group queue, it's a mix or lasers and ballistics. I personally favor ballistics.

I began my argument speaking generically about metas but it was pushed into a laser vomit discussion. That's why the last couple posts were focused on this. So, relax kiddo.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

In the group queue, it's a mix or lasers and ballistics.

No, its not, missiles get plenty of use, and by missiles, I mean SRMs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 06:03 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

I'll pardon that post since you're jumping into the middle of a discussion without looking at anything leading up to it.

There are individual metas and overarching metas. The overarching meta right now is energy weapons in the solo pug queue. In the group queue, it's a mix or lasers and ballistics. I personally favor ballistics.

I began my argument speaking generically about metas but it was pushed into a laser vomit discussion. That's why the last couple posts were focused on this. So, relax kiddo.

I'm perfectly relaxed and I don't need your pardon.

My response was to your assumption that the people who oppose the general idea of limiting alpha strikes or forcing people to take different weapon systems all have limited vision and are addicted to the "meta", and that statement is wrong, and indicates a lack of understanding what the "meta" actually is (IE not just one button laser vomit alpha warrior).

[cazidin]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 06:03 PM, said:

No, its not, missiles get plenty of use, and by missiles, I mean SRMs.

LRMs really just need a velocity buff, similar to the ones SRMs got recently and spread reduction for the larger launchers then they'd be solid weapons despite the counters that exist. Even without these suggested buffs I've encountered skilled pilots who make tears of salt flow from the enemy as they quietly contemplate how foolish it was to underestimate the power of the LRM.

Gas Guzzler, on 09 March 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

I'm perfectly relaxed and I don't need your pardon.

My response was to your assumption that the people who oppose the general idea of limiting alpha strikes or forcing people to take different weapon systems all have limited vision and are addicted to the "meta", and that statement is wrong, and indicates a lack of understanding what the "meta" actually is (IE not just one button laser vomit alpha warrior).

PGI wants fewer and less damaging Alpha Strikes and a cap on DPS(?). Power Draw may very well accomplish this.

[Gas Guzzler]

cazidin, on 10 March 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

PGI wants a cap on DPS(?).

citation needed

[Quicksilver Aberration]

cazidin, on 10 March 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

PGI wants fewer and less damaging Alpha Strikes and a cap on DPS(?). Power Draw may very well accomplish this.

Unfortunately there are unforeseen consequences to changing the pace of damage, and it isn't one I'm expecting PGI to account for.

[FupDup]

cazidin, on 10 March 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

PGI wants fewer and less damaging Alpha Strikes and a cap on DPS(?).

Heat already caps DPS for the most part.

It's just the alphas that don't have much of a hard cap except for the capabilities of each mech in question.

[cazidin]

FupDup, on 10 March 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

Heat already caps DPS for the most part.

It's just the alphas that don't have much of a hard cap except for the capabilities of each mech in question.

Why let a redundancy get in the way of implementing a new mechanic? (And a /highfive to anyone who knows where that quote is from)

[Andi Nagasia]

i think the system is going to be Quite simple,
lets just assume the (Max Threshold) is 35,

you have 7SL (35Damage)= no Penalty= (14(2per Laser)
now you Fire 8SPL(40Damage)= 5 over so Assume X2 Heat to that 5 over= (16(2per Laser) +10= 26Heat)
so for Every Point of Damage over 35, this System Adds an Extra 2Points of Heat,
Im assuming this like GhostHeat, this System would reset every 1/2 a Second,
I also assume all weapons would be Tied to this not Just Lasers,

Making Alphas Last Ditch Efforts like they where in Lore,
and Slowing the Pace of MWO just abit more,

[cazidin]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 March 2016 - 08:28 PM, said:

i think the system is going to be Quite simple,
lets just assume the (Max Threshold) is 35,

you have 7SL (35Damage)= no Penalty= (14(2per Laser)
now you Fire 8SPL(40Damage)= 5 over so Assume X2 Heat to that 5 over= (16(2per Laser) +10= 26Heat)
so for Every Point of Damage over 35, this System Adds an Extra 2Points of Heat,
Im assuming this like GhostHeat, this System would reset every 1/2 a Second,
I also assume all weapons would be Tied to this not Just Lasers,

Making Alphas Last Ditch Efforts like they where in Lore,
and Slowing the Pace of MWO just abit more,

Most of your assumptions will likely prove correct. Great minds think alike, eh? But how small would the max damage have to be to bring TTK down to MWO beta levels?

[Andi Nagasia]

cazidin, on 10 March 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

Most of your assumptions will likely prove correct. Great minds think alike, eh? But how small would the max damage have to be to bring TTK down to MWO beta levels?

well most High Alphas are 50ish, so having it set to 30-35 would be good i think,
remember this Means if you dont want the Extra heat Associated with an Alpha Strike,
you have to Fire two Weapon Groups(one, then Wait 0.5Sec then the next),

this splits up everything hitting one spot in a fraction of a second,
increasing TTK if nothing Else then 1/2 a Second, which also gives time to twist,
PGI may start with the cap at 35 and lower it to 30 if its too high,
so im sure we will see Fine Tweaking after its released,

Also Assuming a Cap of 30,
thats 2 C-LPL(26Damage),
thats 3 IS-LL(27Damage),
thats 6 IS-ML(30Damage),
thats 6 C-ER-SL(30Damage),
thats 1 IS/C-AC20(20Damage),
thats 2 IS/C-Gauss(30Damage),
Do these Numbers Look Familiar?

[Widowmaker1981]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 March 2016 - 10:02 PM, said:

well most High Alphas are 50ish, so having it set to 30-35 would be good i think,

Playing devils advocate here, but if 'max alpha' is going to be 30 points.. why would i ever use anything except PPFLD (3xPPC, 2xPPC+2xAC5, etc)? I can bring 30 point PPFLD alphas all day long, and the only reason id use lasers currently is to get much higher than that... (because burntimes are a big disadvantage)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 11 March 2016 - 03:02 AM.