124 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Atlas is actually meta, and without affecting ballistics, you would end up with no more energy boats, Dakka Maulers are already really strong compared to laser boat assaults like Stalkers, Battlemasters, and Banshees, so why should those get punished more and every assault be forced to rely on ballistics to do, anything really?

That's kind of the point, because with alphas limited to 30 points, DPS mechs will rule the day, they already have a place in the meta even with large alphas, removing alphas just makes DPS the ONLY way to go. Kinda stupid to remove options and depth isn't it?

Those things are true, however, answer this: If you are limiting both DPS and Alpha, and your intention includes limiting heavies, that means that heavies will be able to cap their damage output, yes? if that cap is the same for every mech, why would anyone ever play a mech heavier than the lightest that is able to reach that cap? The only reason to give up speed and agility is firepower. Mobility is better for defence than armour (especially because with great armour comes massive hitboxes).

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 09 March 2016 - 09:37 AM.

[FupDup]

On the topic of ballistics and missiles, PowerDraw™ was literally created for the exact reason of dealing with them equally as it deals with energy. If all PGI wanted to punish was energy and nothing else, they could just nerf heatsinks directly because heat itself is the limiter of energy weapons.

Having power only affect energy weapons basically makes power into a second heat bar that doesn't do anything different than the first heat bar. It would be an entirely useless feature.

The best example of this is probably the Gauss Rifle, which normally has only 1 heat but does 15 damage at very long ranges, which has let it be a top performer in almost every meta this game has had. Power, however, can limit the Gauss Rifle without PGI "breaking lore" to increase its heat generation directly.

Edited by FupDup, 09 March 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 09 March 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

The best example of this is probably the Gauss Rifle, which normally has only 1 heat but does 15 damage at very long ranges, which has let it be a top performer in almost every meta this game has had. Power, however, can limit the Gauss Rifle without PGI "breaking lore" to increase its heat generation directly.

Though, the cleaner fix would've been to just give the goose waffle heat (undo all the bandaids as well) and decrease heat capacity and maybe dissipation a touch further (not much, just a smidge), but we don't like simple around here apparently.

Widowmaker1981, on 09 March 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

Those things are true, however, answer this: If you are limiting both DPS and Alpha, and your intention includes limiting heavies, that means that heavies will be able to cap their damage output, yes? if that cap is the same for every mech, why would anyone ever play a mech heavier than the lightest that is able to reach that cap? The only reason to give up speed and agility is firepower. Mobility is better for defence than armour (especially because with great armour comes massive hitboxes).

This is true, which is why I believe the whole thing is going to fail. That said I don't think power draw will really hit DPS mechs as hard if they are making it similar to the mechanics of ghost heat (wait a half second before firing anything else). Worst case it limits the power of UAC boats over AC boats which I am ok with, even though I will miss the Dakka Whale. The Dakka Mauler should come out of this power draw system unscathed as far as I can tell.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 09:44 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

This is true, which is why I believe the whole thing is going to fail. That said I don't think power draw will really hit DPS mechs as hard if they are making it similar to the mechanics of ghost heat (wait a half second before firing anything else). Worst case it limits the power of UAC boats over AC boats which I am ok with, even though I will miss the Dakka Whale. The Dakka Mauler should come out of this power draw system unscathed as far as I can tell.

Yup. it worries me, because i feel that if they arent uncharacteristically careful for PGI that its going to do one of two things: either make Dakka the be all and end all of large mechs or make large mechs completely redundant.

[cazidin]

FupDup, on 09 March 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

On the topic of ballistics and missiles, PowerDraw™ was literally created for the exact reason of dealing with them equally as it deals with energy. If all PGI wanted to punish was energy and nothing else, they could just nerf heatsinks directly because heat itself is the limiter of energy weapons.

Having power only affect energy weapons basically makes power into a second heat bar that doesn't do anything different than the first heat bar. It would be an entirely useless feature.

The best example of this is probably the Gauss Rifle, which normally has only 1 heat but does 15 damage at very long ranges, which has let it be a top performer in almost every meta this game has had. Power, however, can limit the Gauss Rifle without PGI "breaking lore" to increase its heat generation directly.

So, you're saying that PGI wouldn't implement a redundant and/or useless feature in their effort to defeat a tactic they dislike?

Joking aside, I suspect that Ballistics and Missiles, if they are affected by this new mechanic, will have a minimal draw on the new system. Gauss would be the exception.

Widowmaker1981, on 09 March 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Yup. it worries me, because i feel that if they arent uncharacteristically careful for PGI that its going to do one of two things: either make Dakka the be all and end all of large mechs or make large mechs completely redundant.

I, for one, welcome our Medium Overlords.

[Widowmaker1981]

cazidin, on 09 March 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

I, for one, welcome our Medium Overlords.

If that actually happens? Lol, refunds on everything i can, instant goodbye.

[Nightmare1]

FupDup, on 09 March 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

On the topic of ballistics and missiles, PowerDraw™ was literally created for the exact reason of dealing with them equally as it deals with energy. If all PGI wanted to punish was energy and nothing else, they could just nerf heatsinks directly because heat itself is the limiter of energy weapons.

Having power only affect energy weapons basically makes power into a second heat bar that doesn't do anything different than the first heat bar. It would be an entirely useless feature.

The best example of this is probably the Gauss Rifle, which normally has only 1 heat but does 15 damage at very long ranges, which has let it be a top performer in almost every meta this game has had. Power, however, can limit the Gauss Rifle without PGI "breaking lore" to increase its heat generation directly.

I don't thin that anyone is saying that the Gauss Rifle shouldn't be impact by power draw. I actually said that it should, and even advocated a two-Gauss max based on the books and lore.

ACs, MGs, and missiles, however, shouldn't be impacted by power draw. They don't draw power from the reactor, like the Gauss does, and there is no realistic reason to have them impacted. PGI can still implement power draw to effect weapons that draw power from the reactor without making it a second Ghost Heat mechanic and without gimping ballistics and missiles by making them ridiculously dependent on the engine for their performance.

[cazidin]

Widowmaker1981, on 09 March 2016 - 10:43 AM, said:

If that actually happens? Lol, refunds on everything i can, instant goodbye.

Honestly, I'd be upset too if my Marauder, Black Knight or KGC were rendered either ineffective or sub-optimal as opposed to Medium Mechs should Ghost Power be poorly designed and implemented.

[Nightmare1]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Then you don't understand the whole reason this was added. It is a GAMEPLAY mechanic, it has nothing to do with reality. Why is that so hard for you to wrap your mind around that.

Calling it a gameplay mechanic is a weak excuse; there are much better, more realistic methods of implementing power draw that would add to the game's immersion without ignoring reality or breaking all of the underperformers.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Atlas is actually meta, and without affecting ballistics, you would end up with no more energy boats, Dakka Maulers are already really strong compared to laser boat assaults like Stalkers, Battlemasters, and Banshees, so why should those get punished more and every assault be forced to rely on ballistics to do, anything really?

Under my system, the BattleMaster's larger engine advantage would also give it better power draw, to help balance it against the Atlas. Under your system, both Mechs get hammered and there's no reason to take either one when you can take a Light or Medium instead. You're punishing Assaults mercilessly rather than seeking actual balance.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

That's kind of the point, because with alphas limited to 30 points, DPS mechs will rule the day, they already have a place in the meta even with large alphas, removing alphas just makes DPS the ONLY way to go. Kinda stupid to remove options and depth isn't it?

Except that it makes no sense for a Light Mech and an Assault to both be limited to 30 points. For the sake of all that is MechWarrior, the entire purpose for Assaults it to output damage and tank damage. You are sacrificing all of your speed and mobility and painting a giant, "Shoot me now!" sign on your Mech when you go from a Light or Medium up to an Assault. Assaults are already underpowered enough; why fully gimp them?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Except laser vomit relies heavily on getting around ghost heat, without that workaround, it won't be near as solid. That said, laser vomit isn't everything right now.

Your point?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

You do realize the Grasshopper is pretty meta, it may not be top tier like the BK, but is a solid choice for when you can't take a BK.

I don't consider either Mech to be a meta Mech. Both wilt easily under fire, have large hitboxes, and aren't particularly tanky. I've yet to be killed by a Black Knight and have only been killed once or twice by Grasshoppers. Yet, I've killed more of both chassis than I can count using my non-meta Mechs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

No, its not that hot compared to other meta mechs, run the meta Black Knight with 3 LPL/5 ML and then come and tell me the 3 LPL Crab is hot.

Any 3xLPL Medium is hot. Comparing the heat of a stove top to the heat of the sun doesn't make the stove top any less hot to touch. The bottomline is that, for Mediums which rely heavily on their speed and agility, building a Mech that runs so hot is foolhardy unless all you do is solo pug and don't care about working with your team. In team matches, such a build wouldn't last long because it would be too hot to function in a team environment.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Calling it a gameplay mechanic is a weak excuse;

Except that's exactly what it is, you really think this is coming about purely to make the game more realistic? Seriously? The whole reason this was even created was to close the gaps that ghost heat left open so that alphas are curtailed, anything outside of that is pure fluff.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Except that it makes no sense for a Light Mech and an Assault to both be limited to 30 points. For the sake of all that is MechWarrior, the entire purpose for Assaults it to output damage and tank damage. You are sacrificing all of your speed and mobility and painting a giant, "Shoot me now!" sign on your Mech when you go from a Light or Medium up to an Assault. Assaults are already underpowered enough; why fully gimp them?

First, I understand this, which is why I'm really hoping the alpha limit is based on tonnage to a degree (but I doubt it).
Second, assaults aren't underpowered, they still have some of the best firepower, around, they just have a higher skill cap.
Third, I don't think this power draw crap is really needed in the first place, but I'm fairly alone in that, but if we must have it, I would much rather it be tonnage based than both tonnage AND engine rating.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

Your point?

hammering laser vomit so it is no longer used despite it not being the strongest option for everything seems like the poptart era all over again, killing an option rather than bringing it in line.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

I don't consider either Mech to be a meta Mech. Both wilt easily under fire, have large hitboxes, and aren't particularly tanky. I've yet to be killed by a Black Knight and have only been killed once or twice by Grasshoppers. Yet, I've killed more of both chassis than I can count using my non-meta Mechs.

That doesn't tell you anything, I've killed plenty of Timber Wolves and Mauler, despite both being still very strong mechs. Just because you can kill them doesn't tell you anything, especially if the pilots were bad with them.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

In team matches, such a build wouldn't last long because it would be too hot to function in a team environment.

Surely you jest? If the BK is one of the best heavies and is much hotter, than the 3 LPL Crab is not hot enough. That said, the Crab has other problems that keep it from being useful with 3 LPLs (that and the BJ-3 is still solid with 3 LPLs).

[Nightmare1]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

Except that's exactly what it is, you really think this is coming about purely to make the game more realistic? Seriously? The whole reason this was even created was to close the gaps that ghost heat left open so that alphas are curtailed, anything outside of that is pure fluff.

Keep your shirt on kid, I never said that. However, considering the fact that this is a new design, there's no reason not to make it realistic to help with immersion, particularly when there is so little immersion as-is and when such a system is better for game balance anyways.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

First, I understand this, which is why I'm really hoping the alpha limit is based on tonnage to a degree (but I doubt it).
Second, assaults aren't underpowered, they still have some of the best firepower, around, they just have a higher skill cap.
Third, I don't think this power draw crap is really needed in the first place, but I'm fairly alone in that, but if we must have it, I would much rather it be tonnage based than both tonnage AND engine rating.

There you have it. You don't want it, but if we have it, you want it to behave similarly to Ghost Heat so that the game mechanics and gameplay don't change much for you.

As for Assaults being underpowered, sure they are. They're little more than wind-up toys that waddle in a straight line, fire in a straight line, and pray that nobody attacks them from the side or flank. They can't defend themselves alone effectively and are only good for kicking holes in enemy firing lines. I'd rather take a Medium than an Assault any day, which is why I disapprove of your system; there's no need to further gimp Assault Mechs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

hammering laser vomit so it is no longer used despite it not being the strongest option for everything seems like the poptart era all over again, killing an option rather than bringing it in line.

No one is talking about hammering laser vomit out of existence. I own a lot of energy based Mechs; I certainly don't want them all eliminated. That's why I'm in favor of engine size dictating power draw. If weapons have individual power draw levels, then that would be great. You could fire up to six MLs or two Gauss without damaging or overwhelming your Mech. That's what's so great about the system I propose. You want a dual Gauss Catapult? Sure, but you're going to have a small engine, so your power draw limit won't be as high. It's self-balancing to a certain extent.

Applying a bland, blanket band-aid fix like you suggest would cripple this game though. In fact, under your system, that dual Gauss Catapult gets a buff, making it potential overpowered in the new meta.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

That doesn't tell you anything, I've killed plenty of Timber Wolves and Mauler, despite both being still very strong mechs. Just because you can kill them doesn't tell you anything, especially if the pilots were bad with them.

Sure, I agree. However, to do it consistently in Mechs derided by meta players (and in the case of the Black Knight, to do it without being killed by one yet), does indeed have some weight. My experiences against both chassis have been that they fire one shot, overheat, and then die before coming out of overheat. A good pilot can avoid this, but he will still run so hot that he can't fire effectively after his initial salvo or two. Neither Mech is any good by itself, and is only somewhat effective when teamed with many others.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

Surely you jest? If the BK is one of the best heavies and is much hotter, than the 3 LPL Crab is not hot enough. That said, the Crab has other problems that keep it from being useful with 3 LPLs (that and the BJ-3 is still solid with 3 LPLs).

Meh, Black Knights are underwhelming to me. I take them apart way too easily. As for Crabs, I'm a bit more impressed with their resiliency when running Standard engines. They can really take a beating, whereas the Black Knight tends to just fold up.

As for heat, sorry kiddo, but you can only get away with that in a pugging environment where there is no coordination or battle lines to form/hold. In a team environment, you can fire your hot little thing once or twice and then you'll die, simply because your enemies will know you're running hot and press you. They won't give you time to fire, sneak off to cool down, and then return to fire again. Once they identify you, they will kill you while you're too hot to fight back.

Sure, the Crab is cooler than the Black Knight, but at the end of the day, they're both too hot for sustained combat and are only effective in the puggish, hit-and-run environment.

[Blue Boutique]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

You want a dual Gauss Catapult? Sure, but you're going to have a small engine, so your power draw limit won't be as high. It's self-balancing to a certain extent.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cb44c6840f04dbc

You have to consider that under the power draw system, you can probably afford to strip armor as you're not going into brawling range.

Edited by Blue Boutique, 09 March 2016 - 12:12 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

However, considering the fact that this is a new design, there's no reason not to make it realistic to help with immersion

There actually is, if it gets in the way of balance unnecessarily, which tying engine rating to power draw would do.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

There you have it. You don't want it, but if we have it, you want it to behave similarly to Ghost Heat so that the game mechanics and gameplay don't change much for you.

Maybe its because I know that at the top end, the game isn't just about alphas anymore so that a drastic change to limit alphas ruins the delicate balance that currently exists between DPS and Alpha oriented mechs.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

As for Assaults being underpowered, sure they are. They're little more than wind-up toys that waddle in a straight line, fire in a straight line, and pray that nobody attacks them from the side or flank. They can't defend themselves alone effectively and are only good for kicking holes in enemy firing lines. I'd rather take a Medium than an Assault any day, which is why I disapprove of your system; there's no need to further gimp Assault Mechs.

Just because you would rather take a medium doesn't mean assaults are underpowered, many pilots still get great mileage out of them, they aren't quite as dominant as they were during the Whale meta, but it is probably best that way.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

No one is talking about hammering laser vomit out of existence. I own a lot of energy based Mechs; I certainly don't want them all eliminated. That's why I'm in favor of engine size dictating power draw.

Not all energy boats are able to mount large enough engines though. Mechs like the Battlemaster, Black Knight, Banshee and Blackjack 1X surely benefit, but others like the Vindicator, Hunchback or Stalker which suffer from lower engines (because they can't run XLs). So engine size really shouldn't affect that, because it only solidifies currently dominant energy boats as more dominant (because they get maneuverability AND better power).

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Applying a bland, blanket band-aid fix like you suggest would cripple this game though. In fact, under your system, that dual Gauss Catapult gets a buff, making it potential overpowered in the new meta.

I'm not suggesting some band-aid fix to anything, given a chose I would much rather other things happen, but given what we think is the power draw system engine ratings should not have any impact, but tonnage should, and all weapons should be tied together. Though like I said, I would much rather other things happen (like giving Gauss heat).

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Neither Mech is any good by itself, and is only somewhat effective when teamed with many others.

Good thing this is a team game then huh? Whales used to be THE mech prior to the rebalance, yet you would see constant complaints about it being underpowered from solo and even lower group queue players, because with a team that supports it, it was one of the most devastating assaults and a key to any fight.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Sure, the Crab is cooler than the Black Knight, but at the end of the day, they're both too hot for sustained combat and are only effective in the puggish, hit-and-run environment.

They are too hot for a brawl maybe, but that isn't always what happens in a coordinated environment, and they have a team you have to worry about.

[Nightmare1]

Blue Boutique, on 09 March 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cb44c6840f04dbc

You have to consider that under the power draw system, you can probably afford to strip armor as you're not going into brawling range.

That just makes you easy fodder for ankle biters. Not the best idea, to be honest. It might work in a pug match, but it'd never fly in a team environment; you'd go down way too quickly to accrue damage.

[Nightmare1]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

There actually is, if it gets in the way of balance unnecessarily, which tying engine rating to power draw would do.

Except that it doesn't unbalance the game half as badly as what you suggest.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Maybe its because I know that at the top end, the game isn't just about alphas anymore so that a drastic change to limit alphas ruins the delicate balance that currently exists between DPS and Alpha oriented mechs.

I was wondering when you'd get around to epeening.

So, you think that a minority of basement trolls that have more time than they know what to do with, should dictate game balance to everyone else? How humble of you. Frankly, PSR doesn't impress me; it's little more than a measure of how frequently you play during the week and has precious little to do with real skill. This doesn't help your argument.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Just because you would rather take a medium doesn't mean assaults are underpowered, many pilots still get great mileage out of them, they aren't quite as dominant as they were during the Whale meta, but it is probably best that way.

What whale meta? I've been here the whole time since they've been released, and can't recall a time where they were overpowered. They've always been unidirectional wind-up toys.

As for Assaults, meh, they're too slow and fragile. The Atlas is the only one that can take a real beating.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Not all energy boats are able to mount large enough engines though. Mechs like the Battlemaster, Black Knight, Banshee and Blackjack 1X surely benefit, but others like the Vindicator, Hunchback or Stalker which suffer from lower engines (because they can't run XLs). So engine size really shouldn't affect that, because it only solidifies currently dominant energy boats as more dominant (because they get maneuverability AND better power).

A couple of things here:

1) Vindy has a lot more wrong with it than just whatever the power draw might potentially do to it. I don't think that there's anything, short of a super quirk, that could save that chassis. It's time to cut losses on it.

2) Hunchback can actually run XL engines. What's more, since most Hunchies are built around ballistics or missiles with only one energy dependent variant, they could get away with running smaller engines in my system. Since ballistics and missiles wouldn't have a power draw, they wouldn't need as large and engine. Your system penalizes them, which is why you have to set every engine to have the same draw. In essence, you rely on the hope that two wrongs will make a right. My system self-balances the Mechs though. The same is largely true for the Stalkers.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

I'm not suggesting some band-aid fix to anything, given a chose I would much rather other things happen, but given what we think is the power draw system engine ratings should not have any impact, but tonnage should, and all weapons should be tied together. Though like I said, I would much rather other things happen (like giving Gauss heat).

Giving Gauss heat is a sad idea. I'm sorry kid, but it's anti-Lore and anti-MechWarrior.

As for band-aid, that's exactly what you're recommending. You want ballistics and missiles to fallaciously have power draws, but recognize that it would break Mechs that have to have smaller engines to field them. So, you then want engines to all fallaciously behave the same. You're playing the odds that two wrongs will make a right while ignoring reality and common sense.

Frankly, power draw should depend on the following:

1) Engine size
2) Chassis weight
3) Individual weapon power draw values

That's the most realistic and most balanced approach.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Good thing this is a team game then huh? Whales used to be THE mech prior to the rebalance, yet you would see constant complaints about it being underpowered from solo and even lower group queue players, because with a team that supports it, it was one of the most devastating assaults and a key to any fight.

Meh, whales have always been easy marks. They can't turn, so you just hit them from the side. If the enemy had a couple on the firing line, then you just flank them. The whales were always too slow to respond and typically died.

It does need a solid team, but it also is a bit of a handicap to its team since it limits the team's mobility. Mobility is far more important than firepower.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

They are too hot for a brawl maybe, but that isn't always what happens in a coordinated environment, and they have a team you have to worry about.

In a coordinated environment, you would get pushed, and pushed hard. You could only fire a couple of times before it descended into a brawl both teams trying to focus fire. Your Black Knight would get dropped like a sack of rocks; I've seen it way too often to believe otherwise.

Teams running fast, durable, relatively cool Mechs are much superior to teams running one-shot glass cannons.

That's all beside the point though.

[Nightmare1]

Here's some numbers to make it easier for you to understand.

Let's assume that engine power draw is equivalent to the engine rating divided by 10, with 20 being the minimum power draw and 40 being the max. This allows for dual anything in terms of weapons without allowing for triple Gauss.

That means that Mechs with engine ratings between 0-200 would have a 20 power rating, while Mechs with a 400 engine rating would have a 40 power draw limit.

Now, let's assume the weapons have a power draw equivalent to their damage. Again, this is all just a quick, rough sketch to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

That means that, for a Mech standing still and with a 300 engine, it could fire 6 Medium Lasers, which is what can currently be fired before Ghost Heat kicks in. Or, it could fire 2 LPLs and one ML. It can't fire 3 LPLs though. It could fire 2 Gauss. Etc.

A Mech like my HBK-4G, with its Standard 200, would have a power draw rating of 20. Its 3 MLs would mean that it has a power draw of 15, which keeps it safely below the limit. The AC/20 would have no effect on power draw since it's a ballistic.

Now, in terms of chassis weight, let's assume that the chassis have 2, 3, 4, and 5 power draw for Light, Medium, Heavy, and Assault, respectively. This means that my HBK-4G would have a total power draw of 18 our of 20 while moving and firing. This is very reasonable for a ballistic-centric Mech that is built to brawl.

Let's look at my BLR-1G next. I currently have 2xLPL and 5xML on it with an XL400.

Under my system, I would have a power draw rating of 40. My total power draw (standing still) would be 47. That's too much to fire. I would need to remove two MLs in order to fire safely while standing still for a total of 37 on my power draw. If I wanted to move and fight at the same time, that would mean discarding another ML to provide for the power draw associated with movement. In the end, I would wind up with an XL400, 2xLPL, 2xML, 37 power draw out of 40 while moving. My alpha would be 32 points of damage. That seems reasonable.

Alternatively, I could mount 2xAC/5s, 7xMLs, and a Standard 340. My total capacity would be 34 for power draw. I could discard a ML to fire safely while standing still, or discard two MLs to fire while moving. My final build would be a Standard 340, 2xAC/5, and 5xMLs. My alpha would be 35 points of damage. That seems reasonable, especially considering the fact that the AC/5s aren't hit-scan.

Let's look at the Atlas. A Standard 300 would give 30 points of power draw. Fit on four MLs, 4xSRM4s, and an AC/20 and you have a total power draw of 25 (20 points from weapons, five from movement). That makes the Atlas a powerful Assault Mech, as it should be, and would enable PGI to remove some of its quirks.

That's the beauty of this system; it allows for the removal band-aid quirks while also keeping Mech alphas close to 40 for most Mechs that aren't Assaults. That Atlas would be an outlier with its high alpha, but it would also be stupidly hot, even with the removal of Ghost Heat. It could only fire once before overheating once fully mastered. In this, the heat itself acts as an excellent limiter to it, and the reduced or eliminated quirks prevent it from being overpowered.

Let's look at the Arctic Cheetah. It has a locked, 240 engine which means that it would have a power draw capacity of 24. I could only fire 4 CSPLs while standing still. This prompts more missile usage for this Mech and prevents it from boating too many SPLs.

The more missile and ballistic Kit Fox would be buffed.

These are rough values, but, with a bit of tweaking, would be the best system possible for this new power draw notion of PGI's.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

I was wondering when you'd get around to epeening.

So, you think that a minority of basement trolls that have more time than they know what to do with, should dictate game balance to everyone else? How humble of you. Frankly, PSR doesn't impress me; it's little more than a measure of how frequently you play during the week and has precious little to do with real skill. This doesn't help your argument.

It is like that with any other game, not saying those who are less skilled shouldn't have any say in game balance, but when players who actually put in a lot of time to learn how to play their mechs and do what they do, why wouldn't I give them a fair bit of weight. Nowhere did I bring up PSR either, because it really doesn't mean much, you are correct, you act like good players would disagree on that point (when most actually agree).

Also, basement trolls, saw SWOL accuse comp players of having no job and living in their basement, do you honestly think we dont have jobs and we all live at home with our parents? Really? I dispel it for you and let you know your wrong even though it doesn't really help your argument anyway, just makes you sound bitter if anything.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

What whale meta? I've been here the whole time since they've been released, and can't recall a time where they were overpowered. They've always been unidirectional wind-up toys.

Maybe because you never played against actually coordinated groups? Group queue isn't really a good showing of much because even then it can be uncoordinated.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

A couple of things here:
1) Vindy has a lot more wrong with it than just whatever the power draw might potentially do to it.

So because it is bad, we should make it worse because this might help mechs that are already top performers stay that way and only further the divide between good and bad designs? This is the problem, any design choice that furthers the gap between good and bad designs, is a bad design.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

2) Hunchback can actually run XL engines.

They can run them, but they can't appropriately sized ones, a 275 is the same thing the 5 AC5 Mauler runs. It is a small engine by the meta standards.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Giving Gauss heat is a sad idea. I'm sorry kid, but it's anti-Lore and anti-MechWarrior.

It's anti-lore, it being no heat has nothing to do with mechwarrior. Also where are you championing that it is more realistic?

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

As for band-aid, that's exactly what you're recommending. You want ballistics and missiles to fallaciously have power draws, , but recognize that it would break Mechs that have to have smaller engines to field them.

That's not really a band-aid, that is including all weapons into the same system. I also never recognized that it would break mechs with smaller engines that field ballistics and missiles, because the Adder tends to run either energy or missiles, and either way it would suffer.

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Meh, whales have always been easy marks. They can't turn, so you just hit them from the side. If the enemy had a couple on the firing line, then you just flank them. The whales were always too slow to respond and typically died.

It does need a solid team, but it also is a bit of a handicap to its team since it limits the team's mobility. Mobility is far more important than firepower.

In a coordinated environment, you would get pushed, and pushed hard. You could only fire a couple of times before it descended into a brawl both teams trying to focus fire. Your Black Knight would get dropped like a sack of rocks; I've seen it way too often to believe otherwise.

Teams running fast, durable, relatively cool Mechs are much superior to teams running one-shot glass cannons.

Maybe in group queue, but not in coordinated matches. Sorry but just because it happens in group queue doesn't mean it happens when both teams are actually coordinated and good shots.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 01:15 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 March 2016 - 01:15 PM, said:

Lots of repeated stuff, nothing very important though.

Just a couple things kiddo.

1) I used to run in a comp Unit until RL got too busy for me to make practices. We frequently dropped small to large groups against large groups to 12-mans and won, eating their Dires alive in the process amidst their tears.

2) You say your skilled but who really knows? you also imply that such skills make you an authority on the game. Everything you say is an opinion which you can't really back up though.

3) Check my last post where I actually use numbers and math to get my point across. It's pretty clear that my plan is the better one.

4) I'm kind of tired of dealing with you at this point. You don't bring anything to the table, keep insisting you don't want the system to change, and then continue to recommend changes that aren't based in reality or common sense and would hurt the game more than they would help it.

Last post dealing with you kiddo; tired of you not seeing reason. You're no longer worth my time.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

Let's look at the Arctic Cheetah. It has a locked, 240 engine which means that it would have a power draw capacity of 24. I could only fire 4 CSPLs while standing still. This prompts more missile usage for this Mech and prevents it from boating too many SPLs.

It doesn't prompt missile usage, it just makes the Cheetah crap, because brawling assaults or Dakka assaults would be untouched. Without ballistics tied into the system, mechs would still spew out large alphas while lights which already suffer in the queues would become worse. The Kit Fox wouldn't get better because it already relied on missiles to be worth anything and it would still be slow enough that assaults would gib it. The Oxide is probably the exception which would go through this change untouched as it is already one of the best lights, and all its competitors would get defanged.

This is why ballistics and missiles being outside the limits would be crazy. Oh, the best part is the Splatapult and Splatdog would no longer have to split fire thanks to ghost heat since missiles are no longer affected, making brawling all the more enticing. As for your Atlas, better pilots would just drop the MLs, and mount a 350 engine with 4 SRM6s and an AC20 like they have been since the AS7-S came out, and just brawl like a champ.

Quote

Do you want the return of the splat meta, because this is how you get the return of the splat meta

Nightmare1, on 09 March 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

2) You say your skilled but who really knows? you also imply that such skills make you an authority on the game. Everything you say is an opinion which you can't really back up though.

Last post dealing with you kiddo; tired of you not seeing reason. You're no longer worth my time.

You think you are any different, pulling these sort of arguments is a double-edged sword.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[Nightmare1]

For those concerned about Mech nerfs, here are some more thing to consider.

Look at the Arctic Cheetah and see what it could still run under my proposed system:
ECM
3xSPL
1xSRM6
1xSRM4

That gives it a total power draw while moving of 22 while moving, assuming that ECM has a power draw of 2. It's alpha is still 38 though, keeping it towards the top of the pile in terms of best Lights. DPS is more than tolerable too. The Cheetah is no longer a terrifying CSPL vomit meta Mech. It still packs a punch, but now it's forced to behave more like a Light Mech.


Look at the this Locust: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3671246f31a15c3

Under my system, it still gets a 16 point alpha with a power draw of 18 out of 20. It's still fulfilling the Light Mech scouting role but also has more of a roletype now as an AMS platform.

Look at the FS-A: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7f19db3b9d136bf

Under my proposed system, it can still take a 26 point alpha with a total of 28 power draw out of 29.5. That's appropriate for a Light Mech. When the JJs are used, they could require a 1/2 point of power draw each, putting the power draw at 31 if the pilot attempts to alpha strike while jumping.

The Cheetah remains the top Light for damage output. However, all the Lights have to act more like Light Mechs and less like Mediums. It not only is self-balancing to a certain extent, but it also enforces a bit more roletype among the chassis.

I'll do some more numbers and post them in a bit.