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Power Draw Ii


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#21 FupDup

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 07:48 PM

View PostTrauglodyte, on 06 March 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

...power limit based on the size of the engine.

My god, why do people keep suggesting this? In most cases the worst offending "meta" mechs already pack large XL engines, and doing this would only nerf low-engine mechs even harder.

For example, engine-based power draw would give an Arctic Cheetah more power than a Kit Fox...please think about how stupid that is.

Big XL engines do not need any buff in any way, shape, or form. Please stahp.


Engine size should have zero impact on power draw unless we want big-engine mechs boating lasers to completely ignore the mechanic.

Edited by FupDup, 06 March 2016 - 07:51 PM.


#22 MauttyKoray

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 08:10 PM

View PostFupDup, on 06 March 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

My god, why do people keep suggesting this? In most cases the worst offending "meta" mechs already pack large XL engines, and doing this would only nerf low-engine mechs even harder.

For example, engine-based power draw would give an Arctic Cheetah more power than a Kit Fox...please think about how stupid that is.

Big XL engines do not need any buff in any way, shape, or form. Please stahp.


Engine size should have zero impact on power draw unless we want big-engine mechs boating lasers to completely ignore the mechanic.

They technically shouldn't impact, or at the very least MINIMALLY impact the power draw. The boosted engine capacity is going towards powering the speed of the mech, which would leave none to very little left for extra weapon power.

There, done.

-drops mic-

#23 Davers

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 08:25 PM

With all the balancing mechanisms already in game (heat per weapon, heat cap, heat dissipation, cooldowns, weapon damage) it's sad to see we need another new mechanic to magically fix everything.

#24 MauttyKoray

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 08:29 PM

View PostDavers, on 06 March 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

With all the balancing mechanisms already in game (heat per weapon, heat cap, heat dissipation, cooldowns, weapon damage) it's sad to see we need another new mechanic to magically fix everything.

Replacing a mechanic technically. This would take the spot where Ghost Heat is being removed and is actually a better system. Ghost Heat was terrible and it never fixed anything, just limited the viability of certain weapons minimally.

#25 Davers

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 08:34 PM

View PostMauttyKoray, on 06 March 2016 - 08:29 PM, said:

Replacing a mechanic technically. This would take the spot where Ghost Heat is being removed and is actually a better system. Ghost Heat was terrible and it never fixed anything, just limited the viability of certain weapons minimally.

We have no idea if it will be a better system or not. Since PGI still can't grasp the concept of 4 LRM5s are much better than an LRM20 after 3 years, I am not particularly excited. All we know is that within 48 hours after it is released there will either be a new meta, or thanks to some loophole the same meta. The only real question is whether people will like the new one or not.

#26 MauttyKoray

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 08:46 PM

View PostDavers, on 06 March 2016 - 08:34 PM, said:

We have no idea if it will be a better system or not. Since PGI still can't grasp the concept of 4 LRM5s are much better than an LRM20 after 3 years, I am not particularly excited. All we know is that within 48 hours after it is released there will either be a new meta, or thanks to some loophole the same meta. The only real question is whether people will like the new one or not.

Well, the flamer is useful now and they fixed the user heat gen issue it was having. You can no longer feather it to keep a mech maxed on heat without still generating heat yourself.

As for the 4LRM5 vs 1LRM20, that's part of the point. Ideally several small weapons accumulated will require slightly more power draw than the single weapon. Same with 4AC5 vs 1AC20. You do more damage with the AC5s in the same amount of time that you would with the AC20, thus a combined draw of 4AC5 should be slightly more than the draw from a single AC20.

This works really well for Ballistics/Missiles, however Lasers would need a slightly different scaling of their draw since they do not directly scale with their damage with a size/rating system like LRMs and ACs do.

#27 sycocys

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 09:21 PM

View PostKhobai, on 06 March 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

um its still ghost heat

just every weapon is linked in the same ghost heat group basically

ghost heat + increased cooldowns is how I interpreted it. so pretty much little to no effective change in the "alpha" strategy, just more time to cool between alphas.

#28 cazidin

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:21 AM

View PostFupDup, on 06 March 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

My god, why do people keep suggesting this? In most cases the worst offending "meta" mechs already pack large XL engines, and doing this would only nerf low-engine mechs even harder.

For example, engine-based power draw would give an Arctic Cheetah more power than a Kit Fox...please think about how stupid that is.

Big XL engines do not need any buff in any way, shape, or form. Please stahp.


Engine size should have zero impact on power draw unless we want big-engine mechs boating lasers to completely ignore the mechanic.


I absolutely agree but, permit me a theory. What if a standard engine allowed for slightly greater power draw? Clan XL engines would have slightly greater power draw too, since they have locked in XL and because of Clan tech.

View PostDavers, on 06 March 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

With all the balancing mechanisms already in game (heat per weapon, heat cap, heat dissipation, cooldowns, weapon damage) it's sad to see we need another new mechanic to magically fix everything.


This is just PGI's way of reducing high damage, near pin point alpha strikes.

View Postsycocys, on 06 March 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

ghost heat + increased cooldowns is how I interpreted it. so pretty much little to no effective change in the "alpha" strategy, just more time to cool between alphas.


If you recall, Power Draw would've prevented you from firing additional Gauss Rifles or PPCs for 0.5-1 second. This new system may do something similar.

#29 FupDup

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:15 AM

View Postcazidin, on 07 March 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

I absolutely agree but, permit me a theory. What if a standard engine allowed for slightly greater power draw? Clan XL engines would have slightly greater power draw too, since they have locked in XL and because of Clan tech.

That is more acceptable, since STD engines are currently seen as worse than XL (even IS XL) on most mechs. That also helps any potential STD-engine Omnimechs in the future...

IS XL and Clan XL should have equal power limit or whatever, since the gap between them doesn't need to be made any larger.

#30 cazidin

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:19 AM

View PostFupDup, on 07 March 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

That is more acceptable, since STD engines are currently seen as worse than XL (even IS XL) on most mechs. That also helps any potential STD-engine Omnimechs in the future...

IS XL and Clan XL should have equal power limit or whatever, since the gap between them doesn't need to be made any larger.


The reason I suggest that Clan XL have a comparable power limit as an IS Standard or somewhere between IS Standard and IS XL engines is because this would be a nerf to all Clan Omnimechs which can't switch out their engine. An alternative would be to quirk them lightly to compensate.

(Personally, I'd like to see IS XL engines not explode on a ST loss Posted Image )

#31 FupDup

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:23 AM

View Postcazidin, on 07 March 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:


The reason I suggest that Clan XL have a comparable power limit as an IS Standard or somewhere between IS Standard and IS XL engines is because this would be a nerf to all Clan Omnimechs which can't switch out their engine. An alternative would be to quirk them lightly to compensate.

(Personally, I'd like to see IS XL engines not explode on a ST loss Posted Image )

It would really only be a nerf to the Clam Omnis if the power limit or w/e was set lower than the IS XL...which is unlikely. If both factions' XL engines had the same limit, then it doesn't nerf or buff either faction over the other.

Also keep in mind that the gap between Clan XL and STD is even larger than IS XL and STD, so having it higher than IS XL makes the STD that much less desired on Clam mechs...

#32 Zerberus

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:33 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 06 March 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:


The better reason, is that neither ballistics nor missiles (with the exception of Gauss, obviously) pull power from the reactor plant. They are self contained with their own propellant/delivery systems, warheads, etc. Hence, they have ammo. So, there's zero reason for either weapon type to draw power from a reactor or to influence power draw at all.


So after every shot you´re leaving the cockpit and reloading the AC with a hand crank?
Autoloaders for large calibers require power, even today. And not that little, either, becasue those shells are damn heavy.

And in the case of, for ex., an AC20, a single shell weighs 285 pounds. Tha´s approximately the weight of the shells many large naval guns fire (which ALL have autoloaders), and immensely heavier than anything we put in today´s tanks (which usually dont, but some like the Challenger, Abrams, and every Russian Tank post t-64 do)

"But, but, but, but....we have gas operated rifles today!"

Yeah, we do. But not with a 16" inch bore and a 250+ pound cartridge.

Legitimate reason for power draw on ACs? Found. Posted Image

And the exact same thing applies to missiles, or you need to allocate space for10 tons of bananas (to feed the monkeys doing the reloading in your überlos-jungletech mech)

Quote

If PGI makes it so that my AC/20 HBK has to draw power from the reactor plant to fire its ballistic shoulder, I'm gonna be one unhappy camper. Posted Image

Then prepare to be unhappy, because it will happen.

And Engine rating will be entirely irrelevant, and the IS favorite harping subject of ClanXL vs IS engines (XL or non-XL) will be twice as irrelevant. Otherwise you introduce a new way to game the system by fiddling with your engine size until your output and draw are similar, as well as yet another thing for new players to not know about, and then wonder "Why can he shoot almost twice as often as I can in the same mech?"

It´s ideas like this that make me very happy thaqt PGI is designing and programming the game and not us, becasue with ideas like this we would have never left closed beta...or if we had we would have crashed and burned in a horrific fashion within weeks of official release. Posted Image

Edited by Zerberus, 07 March 2016 - 09:50 AM.


#33 Nightmare1

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 10:02 AM

View PostZerberus, on 07 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:


So after every shot you´re leaving the cockpit and reloading the AC with a hand crank?
Autoloaders for large calibers require power, even today. And not that little, either, becasue those shells are damn heavy.

And in the case of, for ex., an AC20, a single shell weighs 285 pounds. Tha´s approximately the weight of the shells many large naval guns fire, and immensely heavier than anything we put in today´s tanks.

"But, but, but, but....we have gas operated rifles today!"

Yeah, we do. But not with a 16" inch bore and a 250+ pound cartridge.

Legitimate reason for power draw on ACs? Found. Posted Image

And the exact same thing applies to missiles, or you need to allocate space for10 tons of bananas (to feed the monkeys doing the reloading in your überlos-jungletech mech)


The amount of power used to load those weapons would be negligible compared to the amount required to charge and fire a Gauss, lasers, or PPCs. It would actually be even less than the power draw required to propel the Mech across terrain, much less up hill. Realistically speaking, firing an AC/20 or an AC/2 should not cause a power spike in this game. Even with the current heat system, at most, Mech movement only accounts for about 3% of your gauge on a heat neutral map. Power draw would likely be about the same for basic movement; why should reloading a 200 pound warhead cause any kind of appreciable spike in your power draw when moving a 20-100 ton war machine doesn't? That warhead is a drop in the bucket compared to what your engine is already doing.

Your passionate argument is unhinged where reason is concerned.

View PostZerberus, on 07 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

Then prepare to be unhappy, because it will happen.

And Engine rating will be entirely irrelevant, and the IS favorite harping subject of ClanXL vs IS engines (XL or non-XL) will be twice as irrelevant. Otherwise you introduce a new way to game the system by fiddling with your engine size until your output and draw are similar, as well as yet another thing for new players to not know about, and then wonder "Why can he shoot almost twice as often as I can in the same mech?"

It´s ideas like this that make me very happy thaqt PGI is designing and programming the game and not us, becasue with ideas like this we would have never left closed beta...or if we had we would have crashed and burned in a horrific fashion within weeks of official release. Posted Image


Do you actually want the game to be gimped even more than it already is?

Why on earth would you expect engine rating to have no effect? Bigger engines mean bigger power plants which we currently see interpreted as higher speeds. Why should it also not mean that bigger engines have a better capacity to handle power draws? For goodness sake kiddo, just look at car engines today. I have a 1-ton pickup with a 4.6 Triton V8 in it. If I put a bigger engine in it, my truck will move faster and have better acceleration. The power draw for moving my truck is the same, but the engine is better able to handle it. If I put a trailer on the back hitch with another 500 lbs of weight, the two engines will handle the additional load differently, with the larger engine being better able to deal with it. The same rationale applies to Mech engines. A bigger engine will be able to handle bigger loads while smaller engines won't. What's so hard to understand about that, and what could possibly cause you to think that such an important feature would be fully discounted?

I'm really glad that someone as crazy as you isn't designing this game. PGI has made a lot of mistakes, but they are recovering from them. You would just be one long mistake with no recovery. Seriously, go tinker around under the hood of your car for a bit and gain some mechanical knowledge and common sense before you start hammering folks for demonstrating both. Also, if you're going to quote someone, then just do it and quit trying to slide around it in such a way that they won't get a notification. That's just rude.

View PostFupDup, on 06 March 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

Engine size should have zero impact on power draw unless we want big-engine mechs boating lasers to completely ignore the mechanic.


Yet, it defies reality to pretend that bigger engines would not translate into being able to better handle loads. Frankly, I'd rather have this, and any shortcomings associated with it, rather than some Fairy Tale-esque engine thing where all engines are equal. Shoot man, let big engines have their buffs; there's no realistic reason not to!

Power Draw for energy weapons and big engines could be balanced in another manner. There's no reason to say that a Locust should have the same draw capacity as an Atlas simply because all engines are equal.

#34 sycocys

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 10:11 AM

View Postcazidin, on 07 March 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:


If you recall, Power Draw would've prevented you from firing additional Gauss Rifles or PPCs for 0.5-1 second. This new system may do something similar.

The only thing its going to accomplish even that way is making less heat sinks more viable by building in mechanics to slightly separate the alpha/macros spam. Won't affect people that can actually aim much, if at all.

Until they implement an equivalent system to the heat scale exactly nothing can be done (not even convergence systems will help) to lessen the alpha gameplay.

#35 FupDup

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 10:38 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 07 March 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

Yet, it defies reality to pretend that bigger engines would not translate into being able to better handle loads. Frankly, I'd rather have this, and any shortcomings associated with it, rather than some Fairy Tale-esque engine thing where all engines are equal. Shoot man, let big engines have their buffs; there's no realistic reason not to!

Power Draw for energy weapons and big engines could be balanced in another manner. There's no reason to say that a Locust should have the same draw capacity as an Atlas simply because all engines are equal.

So, just to get this straight, you do in fact believe that an Arctic Cheetah should have a higher power limit than a Kit Fox?

That doesn't sound stupid or imbalanced at all to you, in any way?

Or how about the Timber Wolf having a higher power limit than virtually any other heavy mech in the game?

Vindicators having a lower power limit than most light mechs?

Adders having less power generation than Firestarters?


Video game balance matters more than highly specific definitions of "reality." If I want reality I can go outside.

Edited by FupDup, 07 March 2016 - 10:43 AM.


#36 cazidin

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 10:44 AM

View PostFupDup, on 07 March 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

It would really only be a nerf to the Clam Omnis if the power limit or w/e was set lower than the IS XL...which is unlikely. If both factions' XL engines had the same limit, then it doesn't nerf or buff either faction over the other.

Also keep in mind that the gap between Clan XL and STD is even larger than IS XL and STD, so having it higher than IS XL makes the STD that much less desired on Clam mechs...


Hmm... fair enough.

View PostZerberus, on 07 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:


So after every shot you´re leaving the cockpit and reloading the AC with a hand crank?
Autoloaders for large calibers require power, even today. And not that little, either, becasue those shells are damn heavy.

And in the case of, for ex., an AC20, a single shell weighs 285 pounds. Tha´s approximately the weight of the shells many large naval guns fire (which ALL have autoloaders), and immensely heavier than anything we put in today´s tanks (which usually dont, but some like the Challenger, Abrams, and every Russian Tank post t-64 do)

"But, but, but, but....we have gas operated rifles today!"

Yeah, we do. But not with a 16" inch bore and a 250+ pound cartridge.

Legitimate reason for power draw on ACs? Found. Posted Image

And the exact same thing applies to missiles, or you need to allocate space for10 tons of bananas (to feed the monkeys doing the reloading in your überlos-jungletech mech)


Wait. They AREN'T loaded by hand crank by the same team of elite monkeys?

View Postsycocys, on 07 March 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

The only thing its going to accomplish even that way is making less heat sinks more viable by building in mechanics to slightly separate the alpha/macros spam. Won't affect people that can actually aim much, if at all.

Until they implement an equivalent system to the heat scale exactly nothing can be done (not even convergence systems will help) to lessen the alpha gameplay.


Except artificially saying "You cannot fire more than X of Y weapons at a time and have to wait 0.5-1 second before firing any additional weapons", sort of like what's done for Gauss Rifles.

To be clear though, I strongly support, endorse and would personally prefer a proper heat scale with a slightly lower heat capacity

#37 Nightmare1

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 10:55 AM

View PostFupDup, on 07 March 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

So, just to get this straight, you do in fact believe that an Arctic Cheetah should have a higher power limit than a Kit Fox?

That doesn't sound stupid or imbalanced at all to you, in any way?

Or how about the Timber Wolf having a higher power limit than virtually any other heavy mech in the game?

Vindicators having a lower power limit than most light mechs?

Adders having less power generation than Firestarters?


Video game balance matters more than highly specific definitions of "reality." If I want reality I can go outside.


PGI can quirk the individual chassis that need it. It's working well so far for everything else. Frankly, I'd rather have engines behave like engines with outlier chassis given quirks to compensate for being over/underpowered rather than to have something that offends logic.

#38 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 10:59 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 07 March 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

PGI can quirk the individual chassis that need it.

So you mean any mech stuck with a small engine through cap or by virtue of being an omnimech? Sounds to me like it would be easier for PGI to simply not give even more buffs to large engine which are already running rampant in the meta.

#39 FupDup

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:01 AM

View PostNightmare1, on 07 March 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

PGI can quirk the individual chassis that need it. It's working well so far for everything else. Frankly, I'd rather have engines behave like engines with outlier chassis given quirks to compensate for being over/underpowered rather than to have something that offends logic.

Having to give out additional quirks to every mech with a low engine cap offends my logic.

And really, PGI's job of quirking still hasn't helped mechs like the Mist Lynx or Commando, and this would only add fuel to the fire.

Edited by FupDup, 07 March 2016 - 11:01 AM.


#40 jweltsch

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:03 AM

View PostZerberus, on 07 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:


So after every shot you´re leaving the cockpit and reloading the AC with a hand crank?
Autoloaders for large calibers require power, even today. And not that little, either, becasue those shells are damn heavy.

And in the case of, for ex., an AC20, a single shell weighs 285 pounds. Tha´s approximately the weight of the shells many large naval guns fire (which ALL have autoloaders), and immensely heavier than anything we put in today´s tanks (which usually dont, but some like the Challenger, Abrams, and every Russian Tank post t-64 do)

"But, but, but, but....we have gas operated rifles today!"

Yeah, we do. But not with a 16" inch bore and a 250+ pound cartridge.

Legitimate reason for power draw on ACs? Found. Posted Image

And the exact same thing applies to missiles, or you need to allocate space for10 tons of bananas (to feed the monkeys doing the reloading in your überlos-jungletech mech)


Then prepare to be unhappy, because it will happen.

And Engine rating will be entirely irrelevant, and the IS favorite harping subject of ClanXL vs IS engines (XL or non-XL) will be twice as irrelevant. Otherwise you introduce a new way to game the system by fiddling with your engine size until your output and draw are similar, as well as yet another thing for new players to not know about, and then wonder "Why can he shoot almost twice as often as I can in the same mech?"

It´s ideas like this that make me very happy thaqt PGI is designing and programming the game and not us, becasue with ideas like this we would have never left closed beta...or if we had we would have crashed and burned in a horrific fashion within weeks of official release. Posted Image

Yeah, no. Power draw besides very, very, very minimal amount would be outright stupid for acs and missles. The limiting factor for these systems is TONNAGE and AMMUNITION, both of which are severly limiting, and the second compounds the first. The biggest reason why the laser meta is so strong is the fact that it has nowhere near the drawbacks that acs have when compared against one another. The heat factor is just simply not enough of a draw back to counter the massive weight and ammunition constraints on acs. Not to mention lasers hit instantly, are hitscan (as in much easier to use), and have unlimited usage on the map.

If we put power draw on acs and missles, we will STILL be in the same place with our meta as we have done NOTHING to address the main reasons why lasers are meta. A lowered heat cap and increased armor would do more to phase out the alpha meta than powerdraw could hope to.





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