60 replies to this topic

[Zerberus]

My honest opinion?

What I see is a whole lot of "make the clan weapons (nearly) identical to the IS and in some cases even blatantly inferior (SRMs)", which once again gives absolutely no consideration to the fact that many of the mechs themselves are already blatantly inferior.

Implementing most of these changes in our age of heavily quirked IS mechs would basically reduce clan play to a stale all TW/SC all the time, maybe a cheetah or hellbringer every so often for the ecm. Just to have a fighting chance agains the IS "quirkmaxing"

And due to lack of quirks in many cases the clans would now more often than not have significantly inferior weapons to the IS in all aspects but weight and crit slots.... lpl, laser,energy, and ppc range, rof and heat quirks do not exist at all with most clan mechs, and teh few that have them like the summoner still need a LOT of help if your goal is to make every thing equally as viable...

The way I see it, many of these changes, especially the energy ones, would for the most part flip balance completely on it´s head by giving the clans less range, longer burn times, more heat, and overall less dps as the same IS tech becasue the IS mechs are mostly heavily quirked. Of course all the while continuing to leave Omnimechs with locked, often unnecessary loadout components like the whk LT filled with HS or teh jumpjets on a summoner. Unlike the IS, clanners cannot fool around with things like engine size to find a better balance between speed, heat and tonnage.

When I then read things like "increase the cooldown time on Clan SRMs to lower the DPS, since they're easy to boat" more, that´s where a possible underlying agenda starts to expose itself: The absolute max number of missile hardpoints for the clans = 6, on a Maddog. Max for the IS? Currently also 6, on a catapult A1, but soon to be 9(!!!) on the archer. So, they can only mount exactly as many (and soom 50% less), but they still get their rate of fire nerfed "because clans can boat more easily."... This statemen does not reflect current realilty at all. Specifically this section is nothing more than a long winded way of saying "Nerf the clans because they are clans and for no other reason".

And if cut clan range and dmg to be almost the same across the board, then mount the is version on a mech that gives 20% more range, RoF and 20% less heat, and teh cllanner now has weapons that are functionally inferior in every thinkable way except crit slots and tonnage. And that appears to be exactly the direction this post wants to take the game.

Sorry, man, I know you mean well and probably invested quite some time and effort into this. But here are very few if any changes in there that I could possibly be convinced to try with the current state of the game. In case you haven´t noticed, the clans already regularly get roflstomped in CW and comp play with the current state of the game, to the point tthat many don´t even bother with CW anymore at al.... All most of these changes will do do is guarantee that those roflstomps will be even harder and more often.

Tha all said: If all quirks were reset to zero across teh board, these ideas would probably all actually be pretty good. Again, as such reall not a bad effort, but the one thing it disregards is what is currently one of the most important balance factors in the game, and unfortunately it pretty much invalidates what many of these ideas would otherwise quite possibly accomplish.

Couldn`t you have made this post in late-2013 and saved us all the quirkenings?

Edited by Zerberus, 09 March 2016 - 01:41 PM.

[himself]

Elit3 Nick, on 09 March 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Machine-Gun:

Spoiler

How it should be changed:
Drastically increase velocity of the MG, to 1000 m/s respectively.

I was under the impression that MGs were hitscan weapons...

[Scout Derek]

Elit3 Nick, on 09 March 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

Oh you sneaky fox you...

2Sneaky4U



on the other hand, I do agree on the small laser a bit. It's small, so should be short duration.

It'd be great in lights.

[himself]

Nerdboard, on 09 March 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Slight correction to your comment about machine guns: Machine guns do not have any bullet velocity. They hit instantly. They do however have a spray effect (a cone of fire if you will) which you would probably want to reduce instead in order to increase their effective range.

This. You could honestly have MGs with 1000m range, but it wouldn't do squat because of the cone of fire.

[Bishop Steiner]

Elit3 Nick, on 09 March 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

This thread now (apparently) focuses on weapons.



Using my ancient Xbox gamertag has become a habit, although I'm heavily considering finally changing it to avoid such potential insults.

LEETSpeak does seem a little adolescent, no offense.

Reminds me of when bands like Death Angel grew up (they were teenagers when they started, I believe the drummer was like 14, lol) and realized just how kinda...well, "juvenile tough" their name sounded. They even kinda changed it to just "DA" for a bit, but I think it confused too many people so they went back to what was best known.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Mcgral18, on 09 March 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

And yet, the AC5 is far superior to the AC2.

It's among the best isAC, when boated (and especially when quirked).

I think it's the quirks that are making it more popular than AC/2's, especially since there's no AC/2 cooldown quirks or modules. Stock, I can't really say the same, I've been seeing AC/2 boat Maulers wrecking face.

[JC Daxion]

The only change LRM's need, is a increased lock time, when you have LOS..

Elit3 Nick, on 09 March 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

I think it's the quirks that are making it more popular than AC/2's, especially since there's no AC/2 cooldown quirks or modules. Stock, I can't really say the same, I've been seeing AC/2 boat Maulers wrecking face.

I certainly don't fear an ac2 boat.. ac5 boats on the other hand i make more than sure i can get back to cover quickly.. ac2 boats, they run so hot, and it is very easy to twist away a lotta damage.. Even in light/medium fast mechs.. ac2's even in numbers the odds are in my favor..

Edited by JC Daxion, 09 March 2016 - 01:34 PM.

[Zerberus]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 March 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

LEETSpeak does seem a little adolescent, no offense.

Reminds me of when bands like Death Angel grew up (they were teenagers when they started, I believe the drummer was like 14, lol) and realized just how kinda...well, "juvenile tough" their name sounded. They even kinda changed it to just "DA" for a bit, but I think it confused too many people so they went back to what was best known.

Fun fact: Slayer ( who were also tenagers at the time) originally wanted to call tehmselves Dragonslayer after teh 80s movie of the same name. Thankfully, they quickly realized how corny it was and left the dragon at home

[Gentleman Reaper]

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

My honest opinion?

What I see is a whole lot of "make the clan weapons (nearly) identical to the IS and in some cases even blatantly inferior (SRMs)", which once again gives absolutely no consideration to the fact that many of the mechs themselves are already blatantly inferior.

Implementing most of these changes in our age of heavily quirked IS mechs would basically reduce clan play to a stale all TW/SC all the time, maybe a cheetah or hellbringer every so often for the ecm. Just to have a fighting chance agains the IS "quirkmaxing"

And due to lack of quirks in many cases the clans would now more often than not have significantly inferior weapons to the IS in all aspects but weight and crit slots.... lpl, laser,energy, and ppc range, rof and heat quirks do not exist at all with most clan mechs, and teh few that have them like the summoner still need a LOT of help if your goal is to make every thing equally as viable...

The way I see it, many of these changes, especially the energy ones, would for the most part flip balance completely on it´s head by giving the clans less range, longer burn times, more heat, and overall less dps as the same IS tech becasue the IS mechs are mostly heavily quirked.

When I then read things like "increase the cooldown time on Clan SRMs to lower the DPS, since they're easy to boat" more, that´s where a possible underlying agenda starts to expose itself: The absolute max number of missile hardpoints for the clans = 6, on a Maddog. Max for the IS? Currently also 6, on a catapult A1, but soon to be 9(!!!) on the archer. So, they can only mount exactly as many (and soom 50% less), but they still get their rate of fire nerfed "because clans can boat more easily."... This statemen does not reflect realilty.

And if cut clan range and dmg to be almost the same across the board, then mount the is version on a mech that gives 20% more range, RoF and 20% less heat, and teh cllanner now has weapons that are functionally inferior in every thinkable way except crit slots and tonnage. And that appears to be exactly the direction this post wants to take the game.

Sorry, man, I know you mean well and probably invested quite some time and effort into this. But here are very few if any changes in there that I could possibly be convinced to try with the current state of the game. In case you haven´t noticed, the clans already regularly get roflstomped in CW and comp play with the current state of the game, to the point tthat many don´t even bother with CW anymore at al.... All most of these changes will do do is guarantee that those roflstomps will be even harder and more often.

Don't worry, I'm not one of those close-minded douches, I how absolutely no qualms with you criticizing my ideas. First things first, my thread looks at everything in its stock form, as quirks are constantly shifting, and we know there are huge Omnimech quirks on the horizon, some of which might add more ammo per ton to make up for wasted tonnage.

[Zerberus]

Elit3 Nick, on 09 March 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Don't worry, I'm not one of those close-minded douches, I how absolutely no qualms with you criticizing my ideas. First things first, my thread looks at everything in its stock form, as quirks are constantly shifting, and we know there are huge Omnimech quirks on the horizon, some of which might add more ammo per ton to make up for wasted tonnage.

Good poin. And again, good effort. *raises beer stein*

[Bishop Steiner]

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

Fun fact: Slayer ( who were also tenagers at the time) originally wanted to call tehmselves Dragonslayer after teh 80s movie of the same name. Thankfully, they quickly realized how corny it was and left the dragon at home

Shame they haven't made a good album since Seasons in the Abyss....... (because they are still trying so hard to stick to the angry 20 year olds, formula...and sound very formulaic, sadly).

It's funny, even though they get the most flak, I still respect Metallica most out of the Big 4, mostly because they aren't trying to pretend to be something they aren't, any more. (Mustaine over at Megadeth is still shredding pretty spectacularly... but his lyrics and vocal delivery...he doesn't even believe what he's selling anymore and you can tell..and Anthrax? Meh. Were overrated even in the 80s)

At least Testament, Exodus and Death Angel seem to have been rejuvenated. Overkill ain't doing too bad, and some of the new guys like Havok and Evile have done all right resurrecting the Bay Area Thrash sound.

But probably more a convo for a music forum, I reckon. Would love to have a "Headbangers Lounge" where Mechwarriors can discuss the finer points of Metal, though.....

[Zerberus]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 March 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Shame they haven't made a good album since Seasons in the Abyss....... (because they are still trying so hard to stick to the angry 20 year olds, formula...and sound very formulaic, sadly).

Yeah, Slayer is just, well, Slayer. You at least know exactly what you´re going to get. And TBH I enjoyed DIvine Intervention quite a bit... and blasting "Disciple" at ear shattering volume while the Pope was in town and his procession strolled by my door was worth every second of it. "GOOOOOD HATES US ALLLLLL!!!!"

Quote

It's funny, even though they get the most flak, I still respect Metallica most out of the Big 4, mostly because they aren't trying to pretend to be something they aren't, any more. (Mustaine over at Megadeth is still shredding pretty spectacularly... but his lyrics and vocal delivery...he doesn't even believe what he's selling anymore and you can tell..and Anthrax? Meh. Were overrated even in the 80s)

Well, Metallica started to fall out of grace with many with their original "big 4 "oriented base with the black album.... most people dislike change, and despite that being IMO a better album that AJFA, teh community as a whole seems to think otherwise. That said, IMO the most awesome Metallica show ever was easily Rock Am Ring 2006, where they played MoP front to back to mark the 20 year anniversary of it´s release. Trujillo was always an awesome freak, even in ST and the spinoff Infectious Grooves... but I did not expect him to pull off orion as awesomely as he did... stellar performance all around.

Moosetaine is , with all due respect, an ******* by all accounts, something I had the "honor" of experiencing myself. He obviously thinks he´s some sort of god, and JEEZ does he have victim issues.... That the band has only "gone downhill" in teh same way Metallica has since Rust in Peace definitely doesn´t help... He constantly tries to portray himself as a thrash metal god, but Megadeth hasn´t really been thrash for at least 10 years.

Anthrax i honestly was always on teh fence about until roughly the Persistence of Time era.... I personally feel that tossing Belladonna and taking on Bush was the best thing they ever did, The Sound of White Noise was IMO where tehy finally really found tehmselves. It wan´t thrash anymore, but it was finally Anthrax. Not to discount their contribution, they also wrpote their share of timeless classics like "I am teh Law", "madhouse", or "Indians"... but it alwas felt a bit...um..."stuffs", "forced", i would almost use the word contrived. I think "Bring the Noise" with PE (another timeless piece that no rap-metal crossover group since has ever come close to matching) was where they realized that maybe a few changes were in order.

All of that said, I still own every Metallica album up to "Load", every Megadeth album up to "Risk", and every Anthrax and Slayer album period.

Quote

At least Testament, Exodus and Death Angel seem to have been rejuvenated. Overkill ain't doing too bad, and some of the new guys like Havok and Evile have done all right resurrecting the Bay Area Thrash sound.

But probably more a convo for a music forum, I reckon. Would love to have a "Headbangers Lounge" where Mechwarriors can discuss the finer points of Metal, though.....

Annihilator is also still going strong, Jeff (Waters) and I still talk on a regular basis, Destruction (who are actually local for me, I´ve known Schmier for 20something years) are releasing a killer new album soon....

But yeah, this is definitely a topic for either PMs or Offtopic, sorry for the hijack, guys...

Edited by Zerberus, 09 March 2016 - 02:09 PM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 March 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

LEETSpeak does seem a little adolescent, no offense.

There, name changed, happy? ^^

[Bishop Steiner]

Zerberus, on 09 March 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Yeah, Slayer is just, well, Slayer. You at least know exactly what you´re going to get. And TBH I enjoyed DIvine Intervention quite a bit... and blasting "Disciple" at ear shattering volume while the Pope was in town and his procession strolled by my door was worth every second of it. "GOOOOOD HATES US ALLLLLL!!!!"



Well, Metallica started to fall out of grace with many with their original "big 4 "oriented base with the black album.... most people dislike change, and despite that being IMO a better album that AJFA, teh community as a whole seems to think otherwise. That said, IMO the most awesome Metallica show ever was easily Rock Am Ring 2006, where they played MoP front to back to mark the 20 year anniversary of it´s release. Trujillo was always an awesome freak, even in ST and the spinoff Infectious Grooves... but I did not expect him to pull off orion as awesomely as he did... stellar performance all around.

Moosetaine is , with all due respect, an ******* by all accounts, something I had the "honor" of experiencing myself. He obviously thinks he´s some sort of god, and JEEZ does he have victim issues.... That the band has only "gone downhill" in teh same way Metallica has since Rust in Peace definitely doesn´t help... He constantly tries to portray himself as a thrash metal god, but Megadeth hasn´t really been thrash for at least 10 years.

Anthrax i honestly was always on teh fence about until roughly the Persistence of Time era.... I personally feel that tossing Belladonna and taking on Bush was the best thing they ever did, The Sound of White Noise was IMO where tehy finally really found tehmselves. It wan´t thrash anymore, but it was finally Anthrax

Annihilator is also still going strong, Jeff (Waters) and I still talk on a regular basis, Destruction (who are actually local for me, I´ve known Schmier for 20something years) are releasing a killer new album soon....

But yeah, this is definitely a topic for either PMs or Offtopic, sorry for the hijack, guys...

Hmmm.. Do like Annihilator, but they seem to be an "every other album" band for me. Be interested to hear what destruction got up their sleeves.

Just glad to see Thrash making a resurgence. MeloDeath, while having a few noteworthy groups, was just too much of the "same", for me. Though I admit, Folk and Prog Metals are my current muses, BAT (Bay Area Thrash) will always be home for me.

And yeah, Rob has been ideal for Metallica. It's nice that Orion finally gets played live. Even Cliff never got to do that.

Gentleman Reaper, on 09 March 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

There, name changed, happy? ^^

Lol. Didn't have to do it on my acct. I try not to judge, but admit, I like it better that anything leetspeak, lol.

Now anytime I see you in match, I'll have to play "Don't Fear the Reaper" in the background....

[Zerberus]

^^ BUt the SNL version, gotta have more cowbell

[Gentleman Reaper]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 March 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

Hmmm.. Do like Annihilator, but they seem to be an "every other album" band for me. Be interested to hear what destruction got up their sleeves.

Just glad to see Thrash making a resurgence. MeloDeath, while having a few noteworthy groups, was just too much of the "same", for me. Though I admit, Folk and Prog Metals are my current muses, BAT (Bay Area Thrash) will always be home for me.

And yeah, Rob has been ideal for Metallica. It's nice that Orion finally gets played live. Even Cliff never got to do that.


Lol. Didn't have to do it on my acct. I try not to judge, but admit, I like it better that anything leetspeak, lol.

Now anytime I see you in match, I'll have to play "Don't Fear the Reaper" in the background....

No, no, I've been planning on changing it for a while now, I'd say that you guys were the final push I needed to actually doing it, I procrastinate a lot. >.>

[Bishop Steiner]

Gentleman Reaper, on 09 March 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

No, no, I've been planning on changing it for a while now, I'd say that you guys were the final push I needed to actually doing it, I procrastinate a lot. >.>

I'm still planning to join Procrastinators Anonymous, myself, I just haven't got around to it yet.....

[Anyone00]

My quickly shot down rambling on way I think LRMs balance should be tested to see what happens:
Decrease max range to 800m
Increase projectile speed to 20%-30%
Make ammo per ton 2x TT if they missiles remain 1 damage per
More greatly normalize spread across all size of launcher
-Now to the stuff might not be technically feasible-
When the firing mech does not have direct line-of-site the maneuverability of the LRMs is reduce to where something the size of a Jenner going at 110kph or above can fairly easily dodge the volley
A secondary 'soft lock' that maintains a lock for a fired volley as long a second volley of lock requiring weapons is not fired or another unit is not targeted. The exist in a secondary vision cone 270-degrees around the mech but direct line of site must be maintained. This would allow for torso twisting during direct fire.

Other relevant equipment
AMS: increase range and rof 20%
ECM: on the mech it's equipped it reduces detection range by 30%. In a 180m or even 200m bubble it increases lock-on time and lose lock time by 20%, no mech info, and hard counters NARC beacons even on the equipped mech.
NARC and TAG: increased non-direct-line-of-site fire LRMs maneuverability by a small amount (should save full maneuverability till NARC/TAG enhanced LRMs are on the field).

[LordNothing]

i was loling my way down that list. i like how he suggests a lot of changes like those recently done. there are a few i completely agree with and many others that are just flat out wrong. i should also point out that changing everything at once is a bad idea.

anything to do with lasers: wait till ghost heat 2. thats going to severely alter laser balance and speculating now how good lasers will be after that is pointless.

all ppcs: increase velocity and fix collisions. i already consider the cerppc to be superior to clan large class lasers.

flamers: i like em the way they are. they are good tactical utility weapons as they should be. ive seen lights cook off heavies while allied assault mechs take em out.

all 2 class autocannons: increase fire rate slightly (like with a 0.66 cd), and add cooldown modules. heat is fine (it only really matters when you boat 4 or more as it should). all lights with ballistic points need significant quirks for the 2 class acs.

lb 2 and 5: more pellets pls

all lbs: calibrate spread so a well aimed shot can get all the pellets on a cicada at the weapon's optimal range. also try nonlinear spread mechanic so that most of the pellets land near the center of the group.

ultra2s: use a different jam mechanic. they fire two fast for double taps, mwo should not be a button masher (seriously you are wearing out my mice and my finger). and the 5 seconds of jam time seriously hurts dps, making the ultra the worst 2 class autocannon. instead drop the cd to between 0.3 and 0.35s, 1 damage per shell, jam chance down to between 4-7%, every shot has jam chance. jam should take no more than 2 seconds to clear. that should make the weapon very interesting.

all cacs: do something different. one idea is to have longer salvos, lower damage/shell, and higher velocity. if they still suck, make em a ton less. or you can just get around to making ammo switch possible and throw em out.

machine guns: up damage to 0.09

ballistic ammo damage/ton:
2 class: 200
5 class: 180
10 class: stay at 200
20 class: 160
gauss: stay at 150
mg: 180 (if mg damage goes up to 0.09, ammo count doesnt need to change)

lrms: less spread in direct fire. buff artemis (especially in direct fire).

srms: fix collisions and go from there.

narc: more ammo/ton (16 or 18 per ton), faster projectile, fix collisions, longer transmit time.

tag: make invisible to enemy (perhaps visible in thermo like in living legends)


thats my take. i have to say that most of the balance problems if i really think about it are with lasers. and gh2 may or may not fix those. my guess is that it will close 75% of the balance gap.



ps: screw this forum, i had to write this thing twice because it forgot who i was while i wrote it.

Edited by LordNothing, 09 March 2016 - 03:21 PM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

LordNothing, on 09 March 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

i was loling my way down that list. i like how he suggests a lot of changes like those recently done. there are a few i completely agree with and many others that are just flat out wrong. i should also point out that changing everything at once is a bad idea.

anything to do with lasers: wait till ghost heat 2. thats going to severely alter laser balance and speculating now how good lasers will be after that is pointless.

all ppcs: increase velocity and fix collisions. i already consider the cerppc to be superior to clan large class lasers.

flamers: i like em the way they are. they are good tactical utility weapons as they should be. ive seen lights cook off heavies while allied assault mechs take em out.

all 2 class autocannons: increase fire rate slightly (like with a 0.66 cd), and add cooldown modules. heat is fine (it only really matters when you boat 4 or more as it should). all lights with ballistic points need significant quirks for the 2 class acs.

lb 2 and 5: more pellets pls

all lbs: calibrate spread so a well aimed shot can get all the pellets on a cicada at the weapon's optimal range. also try nonlinear spread mechanic so that most of the pellets land near the center of the group.

ultra2s: use a different jam mechanic. they fire two fast for double taps, mwo should not be a button masher (seriously you are wearing out my mice and my finger). and the 5 seconds of jam time seriously hurts dps, making the ultra the worst 2 class autocannon. instead drop the cd to between 0.3 and 0.35s, 1 damage per shell, jam chance down to between 4-7%, every shot has jam chance. jam should take no more than 2 seconds to clear. that should make the weapon very interesting.

all cacs: do something different. one idea is to have longer salvos, lower damage/shell, and higher velocity. if they still suck, make em a ton less. or you can just get around to making ammo switch possible and throw em out.

machine guns: up damage to 0.09

ballistic ammo damage/ton:
2 class: 200
5 class: 180
10 class: stay at 200
20 class: 160
gauss: stay at 150
mg: 180 (if mg damage goes up to 0.09, ammo count doesnt need to change)

lrms: less spread in direct fire. buff artemis (especially in direct fire).

srms: fix collisions and go from there.

narc: more ammo/ton (16 or 18 per ton), faster projectile, fix collisions, longer transmit time.

tag: make invisible to enemy (perhaps visible in thermo like in living legends)


thats my take. i have to say that most of the balance problems if i really think about it are with lasers. and gh2 may or may not fix those. my guess is that it will close 75% of the balance gap.



ps: screw this forum, i had to write this thing twice because it forgot who i was while i wrote it.

All our ideas are opinions, no one's "flat-out wrong".

I know some of my ideas might be redundant with Ghost Heat's replacement on the horizon, I thought I'd still chime in. Although if the replacement really is a power-draw mechanic, then my laser rebalance could still work with it.