74 replies to this topic

[veedubfreak]

Tyler Valentine, on 11 March 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

You're joking right?

Are you Russ' alt account? Stop white knighting all the cheaters.

[Widowmaker1981]

I prefer and do better in the Grasshopper-5P due to the higher mounts, but the BK is very good. Tbolt-5SS is still good, very tanky, its just range limited now if you keep the 7mpl build. Pretty nice with 2LPL 3MPL. I havent gone back to the MAD since they fixed the agility quirks, maybe ill like em better now, but i didnt get on very well with the first time out.

[Widowmaker1981]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

You get 2 lolphas for 58 damage back to back super quick (3 if you burn a cool shot), it peeks better than any clan heavy, and with range modules and quirks you are effective out to the magic 500m range.

In fairness, my Warhammer-6D has exactly that alpha, can do it 2 or 3 times, and is more agile and has better hardpoints... its a bit less tanky, but they are very evenly matched.

[Tyler Valentine]

veedubfreak, on 11 March 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Are you Russ' alt account? Stop white knighting all the cheaters.

Stop perpetuating the delusional fantasy that your lack of skill is due to other people cheating.

[Chuck Jager]

I like all of the Marauders I have played. The funny thing is it is really pretty XL friendly and this allows some very heavy hitting payloads. The Dakka suppression is very real and just fun to play. I will admit the ppc bonuses are good on paper, but I do more damage with lpls (as we all know).

I use this mech to push in the 400-600m range. If you buy the $40 pack you get 2 300xl engines.

[cazidin]

Black Knight > Marauder = Thunderbolt > Grasshopper.

[Gyrok]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 March 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

In fairness, my Warhammer-6D has exactly that alpha, can do it 2 or 3 times, and is more agile and has better hardpoints... its a bit less tanky, but they are very evenly matched.

I actually enjoy the WHM-6D more than the BK...but the BK has better cooling with 5MLs. I run the 6D with 3LPL + 4ML and I absolutely love that mech. Amazing mech overall.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

You get 2 lolphas for 58 damage back to back super quick (3 if you burn a cool shot), it peeks better than any clan heavy, and with range modules and quirks you are effective out to the magic 500m range.

If you get into trouble when someone rushes you...they are already opened up and/or nearly dead already because they ate 116 damage on the way in...just chain fire LPLs on their open internals and kill them off...or roll the dice, hit override and pump them full of MLs.

Well the MLs are doing less than half damage at that range, the 58 damage stops at 324m. Its strong yes, one of the best IS heavies, but to say that it is "insanely OP" is ridiculous.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

I actually enjoy the WHM-6D more than the BK...but the BK has better cooling with 5MLs. I run the 6D with 3LPL + 4ML and I absolutely love that mech. Amazing mech overall.

Its a 1 DHS difference, not incredible noticeable.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

Well the MLs are doing less than half damage at that range, the 58 damage stops at 324m. Its strong yes, one of the best IS heavies, but to say that it is "insanely OP" is ridiculous.

Not really...

How many clan mechs can move/twist/peek like the BK? Have a 58 lolpha that can be fired twice with short duration to a single pixel pinpoint? Have the structure quirks that make the thing a tank from hell?

I care not what people say about the hit boxes, when the structure quirks are that strong, the hit boxes do not matter...(unless maybe the AWS...but I digress...the baby jesus weeps for the AWS)

Quote

Its a 1 DHS difference, not incredible noticeable.

On paper, not really...in practice, it is pretty noticeable actually.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Not really...

How many clan mechs can move/twist/peek like the BK? Have a 58 lolpha that can be fired twice with short duration to a single pixel pinpoint? Have the structure quirks that make the thing a tank from hell?

I care not what people say about the hit boxes, when the structure quirks are that strong, the hit boxes do not matter...(unless maybe the AWS...but I digress...the baby jesus weeps for the AWS)





On paper, not really...in practice, it is pretty noticeable actually.

Since you didn't specify tonnage, the Executioner can probably peak better because MASC! Short duration, 0.9 seconds vs 1.15 seconds? So a quarter second is the end of the world for you? Tsk tsk. The IS LPLs of course are disgusting, but the full alpha takes .9 seconds which is not much different than the Clan mechs.

I don't know, like I said, it is GREAT in its range bracket, but there are some Clan mechs that will obviously outperform it in the slightly higher range bracket. My only issue is you are doing the typical Gyrok thing, saying "THIS Inner Sphere MECH IS INSANELY OP, NO CLAN MECH CAN COMPETE" when I know for a fact that Black Knights are not always the best option, depending on what you are trying to accomplish. The whole game isn't about 400 m laser vomit.

[LordMelvin]

Thunderbolts feel very zippy for heavies with STD 300s. Torso hardpoints are up near the cockpit which makes aiming over hills easier. They all have at least 3-4 energy hardpoints and a couple missile ones. I'd say they fall between the Grasshopper and Black Knight in terms of agility to toughness tradeoffs.

Grasshoppers are...hoppy. Hardpoints are fairly low, although the mech itself is very tall and comes with jump jets. All variants have head hardpoints (mostly missile, although one has an energy) that provide Hunchback levels of vision blockage out the right side of the cockpit. I haven't played mine a whole lot but they feel like grownup Shadowhawks.

The Black Knight is a damn solid mech now. Good number of hardpoints, tanky, good damage projection. It's kinda in the same spot the Thundebolt was during the first round of turbo quirks. Hardpoints are painfully low which makes hillhumping a nightmare. Not as zippy as the Thunderbolt or Grasshopper but they twist well.

Marauders have exceeded all of my expectations so far. The torso hardpoint(s) are close to the body so you don't expose a lot peeking over cover. Bringing the arms to bear usually exposes more of the body, but the way the mech spreads damage you can afford to take a few shots. Getting broadsided is a great way to lose a torso, although most people seem to go for the legs. Easily the least agile of the four, although several variants sport jump jets.

[Soultraxx]

Im voting Marauders and they're my best performing Mechs.

They can pump out damage and tank the incoming like a boss.

In many a game Ive been focused and thought I must be on my last legs, but a glance at my paper doll shows Im still going strong.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

My only issue is you are doing the typical Gyrok thing, saying "THIS Inner Sphere MECH IS INSANELY OP, NO CLAN MECH CAN COMPETE" when I know for a fact that Black Knights are not always the best option, depending on what you are trying to accomplish.

So, the LPLs are the big kicker in those builds...that 0.6 sec duration...if I shave ~4 damage off by cutting the MLs early to get back to cover, no big deal. If you cut the clan volley off at 0.6 seconds...you are utterly doing half damage or less.

Next, sure, some mechs are better in different range brackets.

However...let us consider this:

What is the typical engagement range in MWO?

350-500m

What weapon dominates matches in MWO?

Lasers

Which lasers are best?

Most damage in shortest time (i.e. LPLs)

Can you brawl with it?

Sure...you can...as a matter of fact, the SRM boat closing from ~350m will lose a ST and/or die to 2 lolphas from your BK before he has a chance to close.

In fact, the only scenario I have had where I have truly felt heat constrained in a BK/WHM would be when there is a huge push against my team. In that case, a target rich environment means that, while the 4 lolphas you got off after coolshot were potent, you dropped ~2 mechs and many more are still coming.

In that instance, I have had to resort to chaining LPLs to keep damage output up. Even then, you would be surprised what chain firing 3 LPLs will do to mechs with cracked armor...

Yeah...if you run ERLL meta and camp island on Crimson or something...sure...the BK is outright disadvantaged.

How the hell often do you see people do that in the solo/group queue? I can count the number of times I have seen it within the last 60 days on one hand...and I am not even using all the fingers on that hand...

My point being this:
The BK is the absolute, unquestionably, strongest heavy mech in 90% of MWO scenarios you will experience outside of competitive play.

Oh, and stop with the typical Gas Guzzler jumping to conclusions BS...it got old years ago.

Edited by Gyrok, 11 March 2016 - 01:23 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

On paper, not really...in practice, it is pretty noticeable actually.

Only because you are firing more weapons and generating more heat, not because the dissipation is that much worse. People confuse the two, if you just dropped the DHS and did not add the extra laser (or just didn't fire it) you would barely notice the difference. It is like the 5 LL vs 6 LL Stalker debate all over again.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

The BK is the absolute, unquestionably, strongest heavy mech in 90% of MWO scenarios you will experience outside of competitive play.

Are you sure, because I see threads in here about MGs and LRMs being OP, so obviously it isn't the best heavy outside of comp play.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Can you brawl with it?

The answer to this is no, can it poke at short range, yes, which is why it is nice as a support mech for a brawly drop dec, but can it actually brawl once SRMs are in range, no, it doesn't have the heat capabilities or the damage to thrive in the middle of a brawl like a Splat Timby would.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 March 2016 - 01:42 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

So, the LPLs are the big kicker in those builds...that 0.6 sec duration...if I shave ~4 damage off by cutting the MLs early to get back to cover, no big deal. If you cut the clan volley off at 0.6 seconds...you are utterly doing half damage or less.

Next, sure, some mechs are better in different range brackets.

However...let us consider this:

What is the typical engagement range in MWO?

350-500m

What weapon dominates matches in MWO?

Lasers

Which lasers are best?

Most damage in shortest time (i.e. LPLs)

Can you brawl with it?

Sure...you can...as a matter of fact, the SRM boat closing from ~350m will lose a ST and/or die to 2 lolphas from your BK before he has a chance to close.

In fact, the only scenario I have had where I have truly felt heat constrained in a BK/WHM would be when there is a huge push against my team. In that case, a target rich environment means that, while the 4 lolphas you got off after coolshot were potent, you dropped ~2 mechs and many more are still coming.

In that instance, I have had to resort to chaining LPLs to keep damage output up. Even then, you would be surprised what chain firing 3 LPLs will do to mechs with cracked armor...

Yeah...if you run ERLL meta and camp island on Crimson or something...sure...the BK is outright disadvantaged.

How the hell often do you see people do that in the solo/group queue? I can count the number of times I have seen it within the last 60 days on one hand...and I am not even using all the fingers on that hand...

My point being this:
The BK is the absolute, unquestionably, strongest heavy mech in 90% of MWO scenarios you will experience outside of competitive play.

Oh, and stop with the typical Gas Guzzler jumping to conclusions BS...it got old years ago.

What conclusion was I supposed to arrive at after hearing the assertion that "The Black Knight is the most insanely OP mech in the game".

Now you are saying that it is the strongest heavy for most situations in solo/group queue, which is a much more correct statement. Good job, you have made a non-sensationalized comment about an IS mech being good. 90% is a little high though, and I wasn't talking about ER LL spam which makes up a very small amount of public queue play. The lack of jump jets and low hardpoints relegate it to side poking and flanking roles which it does very well at, but good luck shooting down from a ledge without exposing your entire torso.

I will repeat, very strong yes, insanely OP, no. Insanely OP means without a doubt it is easy to outperform most pilots in all other mechs. There has not been an "insanely OP" mech in this game since I have been playing it, there are just many who like to loosely through that term around whenever they feel like a mech is good.

And jokes on you, you haven't known me on the forums here for years.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

What conclusion was I supposed to arrive at after hearing the assertion that "The Black Knight is the most insanely OP mech in the game".

What mech is stronger than the BK in 90% of situations??

Quote

Now you are saying that it is the strongest heavy for most situations in solo/group queue, which is a much more correct statement. Good job, you have made a non-sensationalized comment about an IS mech being good. 90% is a little high though, and I wasn't talking about ER LL spam which makes up a very small amount of public queue play. The lack of jump jets and low hardpoints relegate it to side poking and flanking roles which it does very well at, but good luck shooting down from a ledge without exposing your entire torso.

I will repeat, very strong yes, insanely OP, no. Insanely OP means without a doubt it is easy to outperform most pilots in all other mechs. There has not been an "insanely OP" mech in this game since I have been playing it, there are just many who like to loosely through that term around whenever they feel like a mech is good.

And jokes on you, you haven't known me on the forums here for years.

Yeah, the torso mounts, and it does not hill hump well due to that. That is really the one limiting factor I think. JJs would be nice, less necessary than some people think...but, then again, I have more than 1500 drops in HBRs...so there is that.

If it is the best choice in 90% of cases, what else would it be? There are people that, to this day, still say clan mechs are insanely OP (in spite of them being massively wrong...).

I mean...I get where you are coming from...but...you have to see where I am coming from as well...

As for the forums, since 2014...close enough.

Edited by Gyrok, 11 March 2016 - 02:02 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

If it is the best choice in 90% of cases, what else would it be? There are people that, to this day, still say clan mechs are insanely OP (in spite of them being massively wrong...).

So basically the opposite of you with basically the same results (in being wrong)?

[MechWarrior5152251]

So what people are saying is the BK is about to get the Nerf Hammer?

[Tristan Winter]

Never going to stop being amused at people showering the Black Knight with praise, calling it OP, etc.

So many people were raining on it when it was released, even after the CT hitbox was fixed. I mean, out of 100 forum warriors, maybe 2 or 3 would acknowledge that it was a good mech. Most people would just drone on about how big it was and how low its hardpoints were.

And now suddenly lots of people are calling it the best [IS] heavy mech in the game. Which basically means it's arguably the best mech in the game.

MechWarrior5152251, on 11 March 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

So what people are saying is the BK is about to get the Nerf Hammer?

I expect PGI to do fairly few adjustments before they implement their new system to replace Ghost Heat.

But probably, yeah. We can't have nice things.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tristan Winter, on 11 March 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Never going to stop being amused at people showering the Black Knight with praise, calling it OP, etc.

So many people were raining on it when it was released, even after the CT hitbox was fixed. I mean, out of 100 forum warriors, maybe 2 or 3 would acknowledge that it was a good mech. Most people would just drone on about how big it was and how low its hardpoints were.

And now suddenly lots of people are calling it the best [IS] heavy mech in the game. Which basically means it's arguably the best mech in the game.

It has changed since it got released.

Here is what it released with: https://mwomercs.com...22sep2015-patch
It got buffed quite a bit during the rebalance, which along with the hitbox fix helped it become what it is.