74 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 March 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

So basically the opposite of you with basically the same results (in being wrong)?

I am actually factually correct more often than not. You tend to have a perspective that differs from mine. Which makes it your opinion that my ideas, different from your own, would not be a better perspective...and while I have been unable to sway you (because stubborn), you have also been unable to persuade me (because stubborn).

Alas, agree to disagree?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

I am actually factually correct more often than not.

Maybe after the re-balance, but all the whining since quirks got released and prior to the re-balance has been mostly bogus.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

What mech is stronger than the BK in 90% of situations??



Yeah, the torso mounts, and it does not hill hump well due to that. That is really the one limiting factor I think. JJs would be nice, less necessary than some people think...but, then again, I have more than 1500 drops in HBRs...so there is that.

If it is the best choice in 90% of cases, what else would it be? There are people that, to this day, still say clan mechs are insanely OP (in spite of them being massively wrong...).

I mean...I get where you are coming from...but...you have to see where I am coming from as well...

As for the forums, since 2014...close enough.

I still think 90% is a little too high, I'm not going to sit here and list all the situations where I'd rather be in something else, but lets just step back and say that yes, IS laser vomit with range quirks and heat gen quirks is probably the best short range poke loadout you can get.

And yeah, Clan mechs haven't been OP for a while now. There will always be people on both sides that think their opponents mechs are better than theirs. Its a subconscious thing. The inability to admit that one was outplayed. I laugh at people when they say that Clan mechs are OP, but now, since that last range nerf, I don't think anyone can really say IS mechs are OP either.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 March 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

Maybe after the re-balance, but all the whining since quirks got released and prior to the re-balance has been mostly bogus.

Let's not forget to include the time period before quirks were even a thing...

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 March 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Only because you are firing more weapons and generating more heat, not because the dissipation is that much worse. People confuse the two, if you just dropped the DHS and did not add the extra laser (or just didn't fire it) you would barely notice the difference. It is like the 5 LL vs 6 LL Stalker debate all over again.

This comes down to the way you play.

The sustained damage from the lolpha build is less, the burst is more.

This day and age, I find as long as I hit 50 (seems to be the magic number), I am good with a build. I run BKs with 58 alpha, not 63 (slot locked at 53 and no benefit there...), I run the WHM with 53 alpha...

It just fits.

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Are you sure, because I see threads in here about MGs and LRMs being OP, so obviously it isn't the best heavy outside of comp play.

"From the perspective of a long time vet, former comp player, and overall solid pilot...I can safely say that my experience with this mech is dramatically different than what the scrub queue sees in T3/T4/T5." Not sure that T2 would be much different...maybe...maybe not... hard to say how much T1/T2 you see in the yolo queue.

Also...if we take the underhive into consideration...arm lock is OP, mechlab is OP, alternate vision modes are OP, and not having the stupid 3PV drone over your mech is OP...

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The answer to this is no, can it poke at short range, yes, which is why it is nice as a support mech for a brawly drop dec, but can it actually brawl once SRMs are in range, no, it doesn't have the heat capabilities or the damage to thrive in the middle of a brawl like a Splat Timby would.

I think that depends on the situation entirely.

Is it a favorable brawler? Not necessarily...you want to have cover...sure. Can you be monstrously effective in brawl range, and even take a good SRM mech out? Sure.

Not arguing it is an optimal choice to do so...but if push comes to shove, in a pinch you can pull it off passably.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 March 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

Maybe after the re-balance, but all the whining since quirks got released and prior to the re-balance has been mostly bogus.

Since the rebalance, during the over buffed IS laser range quirks...I also predicted that the terribad clan robots would still be terribad with PGI's tinkerings.

I also said that PGI would nerf hammer one too much and buff the other too much and completely flip the tables. To which everyone thought I was ludicrous.

My word...it looks like a good portion of what I said would come to pass has...

You may mock me, but I know some things about game balance, and I am pretty astute...regardless of what you may think of me personally.

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

I still think 90% is a little too high, I'm not going to sit here and list all the situations where I'd rather be in something else, but lets just step back and say that yes, IS laser vomit with range quirks and heat gen quirks is probably the best short range poke loadout you can get.

And yeah, Clan mechs haven't been OP for a while now. There will always be people on both sides that think their opponents mechs are better than theirs. Its a subconscious thing. The inability to admit that one was outplayed. I laugh at people when they say that Clan mechs are OP, but now, since that last range nerf, I don't think anyone can really say IS mechs are OP either.

While I would not say IS is OP currently, I will say IS laser meta is stronger than Clan laser meta in most scenarios...(excluding extreme range...).

Clans do need to have a secondary weapon system become valid. SRMs are situational, and the mid range meta is just dramatically stronger with lasers at the moment. Not sure ballistics will ever be viable at the same level that IS ACs are...but...one can hope I suppose.

Edited by Gyrok, 11 March 2016 - 02:27 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

While I would not say IS is OP currently, I will say IS laser meta is stronger than Clan laser meta in most scenarios...(excluding extreme range...).

Clans do need to have a secondary weapon system become valid. SRMs are situational, and the mid range meta is just dramatically stronger with lasers at the moment. Not sure ballistics will ever be viable at the same level that IS ACs are...but...one can hope I suppose.

Well if you are going to run along side a death ball then yes IS laser vomit will serve you better, but if a match ever turns into a more stagnant poke fest, doesn't even have to be extreme range, in my opinion Clan laser vomit's slight range edge has its advantages. Its why what is really OP is a team that is made up of both types of mechs.

Clan dakka has its uses though. Overall DPS aside, no IS mech can match the BURST DPS of a dakka Dire (with 2 10s and 3 5s or even 3 10s and 2 5s) but the 5 AC5 Mauler build will of course outperform it at 600-900 meters due to the PPFLD. I would say that not many Clan mechs can actually make good use of their Dakka though. Nova Cat/Night Gyr could bring an increase in dakka use, and if the HGN-IIC and Onion-IIC have shown us anything, it is that 2 UAC10s coupled with some cLPLs is actually a pretty scary combination, and exceeded my personal expectations, to be honest.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 02:25 PM, said:

Since the rebalance, during the over buffed IS laser range quirks...I also predicted that the terribad clan robots would still be terribad with PGI's tinkerings.

And the IS terribad robots would be worse than even the Clam robots, and that is still true, so you aren't really making a point other than both sides have terribad robots, the IS just has more (both in quantity and quality) terribads.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

This comes down to the way you play.

The sustained damage from the lolpha build is less, the burst is more.

This day and age, I find as long as I hit 50 (seems to be the magic number), I am good with a build. I run BKs with 58 alpha, not 63 (slot locked at 53 and no benefit there...), I run the WHM with 53 alpha...

It just fits.

It may be about play style, but it is still the better play style. There is no reason to go 5 LL vs 6 LL Stalker since the 5 LL gains a single DHS and a couple kph, where as with 6, you have the alpha when you need it, you just need to have the sense not fire as much when you get heat capped (which they both suffer from).

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

"From the perspective of a long time vet, former comp player, and overall solid pilot...I can safely say that my experience with this mech is dramatically different than what the scrub queue sees in T3/T4/T5." Not sure that T2 would be much different...maybe...maybe not... hard to say how much T1/T2 you see in the yolo queue.

Also...if we take the underhive into consideration...arm lock is OP, mechlab is OP, alternate vision modes are OP, and not having the stupid 3PV drone over your mech is OP...

That's kinda my point, saying the BK is OP in solo queue 90% of the time is a bit silly when solo queue in general is a mess.

Gyrok, on 11 March 2016 - 02:21 PM, said:

Is it a favorable brawler? Not necessarily...you want to have cover...sure. Can you be monstrously effective in brawl range, and even take a good SRM mech out? Sure.

This is what people get confused on, if it you want to have cover, you aren't a brawler. Sure even Timbys like cover in a brawl, but only while chasing called targets, and you shouldn't be reliant on it. The BK is a short range poker, just like the BJ-1X, they are not brawlers, but they mix really well with brawl mechs because they can do significant damage on the push and isolate important targets during the furball. There is a difference most people skip over, just like they did with the TDR-5SS (which wasn't a brawler either).

[GrimRiver]

BK hands down.

For me at least, I use it as a brawler and don't hill hump(due to low slung hardpoints).

It just rolls damage soo well, soo good in fact there was times I would've died outright in any other mech.

[Nauht]

Enjoy the BK now.

When the new heatscale/ghostheat 2.0/powerdraw mechanic is introduced it's gonna decimate the BK.

[pattonesque]

if the Black Knight had a blue HUD my man would be sobbing about the low mounts and big CT

[Tristan Winter]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 March 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

It has changed since it got released.

Here is what it released with: https://mwomercs.com...22sep2015-patch
It got buffed quite a bit during the rebalance, which along with the hitbox fix helped it become what it is.

I don't think the improvement in quirks, relative to what other mechs have received, are that crazy. And even if they were, it certainly took some time before people recognized it. I never saw anyone instantly recognize the BK as a top tier mech when it was buffed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tristan Winter, on 11 March 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

I never saw anyone instantly recognize the BK as a top tier mech when it was buffed.

They recognized it was solid, but most just toyed with it until it was released for c-bills sometime after the re-balance. That's when people started to recognize the power of it (partially because more people tried it, and also because it became legal in comp leagues).

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

Well if you are going to run along side a death ball then yes IS laser vomit will serve you better, but if a match ever turns into a more stagnant poke fest, doesn't even have to be extreme range, in my opinion Clan laser vomit's slight range edge has its advantages. Its why what is really OP is a team that is made up of both types of mechs.

if you stagnate about 600m apart...yeah...Clan is stronger around 500-700, mostly because LPLs are strong there...the ERMLs taper off too quickly past 500m for my own comfort...

Also, IS LL are still really strong, especially considering quirks, to 600-700m. They are just less strong than LPLs.

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Clan dakka has its uses though. Overall DPS aside, no IS mech can match the BURST DPS of a dakka Dire (with 2 10s and 3 5s or even 3 10s and 2 5s) but the 5 AC5 Mauler build will of course outperform it at 600-900 meters due to the PPFLD. I would say that not many Clan mechs can actually make good use of their Dakka though. Nova Cat/Night Gyr could bring an increase in dakka use, and if the HGN-IIC and Onion-IIC have shown us anything, it is that 2 UAC10s coupled with some cLPLs is actually a pretty scary combination, and exceeded my personal expectations, to be honest.

UAC10s + energy was the one build besides Gauss + energy I expected to see be "ok" or better...honestly. Sadly, the mechs themselves ended up being less than optimal platforms for that combination. However, I do expect it will be seen more in the future when the opportunity presents itself.

[Cabusha]

Marauder is the tankiest Heavy in the game right now. The 3R is arguably OP with its structure quirks and ability to spread damage. 3xAC5 +4ML is the best build for that thing.

BlackKnight is fun but the belly button high hardpoints are annoying. Damn near as bad as the Atlas in that regard.

[pattonesque]

Tristan Winter, on 11 March 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

I don't think the improvement in quirks, relative to what other mechs have received, are that crazy. And even if they were, it certainly took some time before people recognized it. I never saw anyone instantly recognize the BK as a top tier mech when it was buffed.

Doubling or more than doubling structure quirks is a p. big deal. Combine that with small boosts to things like duration on the -L and it really took off (also they fixed the hitboxes so the CT was tougher to hit)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 March 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

the 5 AC5 Mauler build will of course outperform it at 600-900 meters due to the PPFLD.

It isn't just that, it is also because of that 25% extra velocity, putting it at 1438m/s. That velocity is one of the main reasons the Dakka Mauler is so potent at that range.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 March 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

It isn't just that, it is also because of that 25% extra velocity, putting it at 1438m/s. That velocity is one of the main reasons the Dakka Mauler is so potent at that range.

Trust me, I know! I love it.

We used to toy with the XL build with 2 AC2s and 4 AC5s, because of the extra DPS, but honestly, the 5AC5s is just better.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 11 March 2016 - 02:56 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Since the OP asked which one was the most "fun" (not meta, not toughest, not most over powered, etc.) my answer is the Hopper. Laser spam that can be built a variety of ways and the goofiness of the J variant which inspires me to make some really crazy/stupid builds, plus jump jets. Yep, most fun.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 March 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

And the IS terribad robots would be worse than even the Clam robots, and that is still true, so you aren't really making a point other than both sides have terribad robots, the IS just has more (both in quantity and quality) terribads.

2 words: Mist Lynx.

There is not another mech in the game in a worse place than the MLX, and what about the GAR? LOL! Yeah...

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It may be about play style, but it is still the better play style. There is no reason to go 5 LL vs 6 LL Stalker since the 5 LL gains a single DHS and a couple kph, where as with 6, you have the alpha when you need it, you just need to have the sense not fire as much when you get heat capped (which they both suffer from).

There is a difference in your example and mine.

The 5LL stalker versus 6LL stalker is changing 5 tons and 9 damage for 1 DHS and marginally better heat efficiency because you cannot fully offset the weight of the LL you traded.

The WHM-6D literally trades 1 ML for 1 DHS, and ends up being a swing from 1.06 to 1.17 in heat efficiency. Which takes you from on the verge of melt down every time you fire, to the ball park of 1.2 which is quite a bit more pleasant to deal with.

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That's kinda my point, saying the BK is OP in solo queue 90% of the time is a bit silly when solo queue in general is a mess.

I was implying group/solo...I would not include comp because...well...I have not played comp in a long time.

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This is what people get confused on, if it you want to have cover, you aren't a brawler. Sure even Timbys like cover in a brawl, but only while chasing called targets, and you shouldn't be reliant on it. The BK is a short range poker, just like the BJ-1X, they are not brawlers, but they mix really well with brawl mechs because they can do significant damage on the push and isolate important targets during the furball. There is a difference most people skip over, just like they did with the TDR-5SS (which wasn't a brawler either).

The BK needs cover in the same sense that any other mech needs cover. If you are in a furball, and pushing as a group...the group is technically your cover. You can rotate armor, take pot shots, murderball, steamroll, and pillage your weasely heart out just fine in a BK.

The situations where cover becomes more crucial for a BK, would be a protracted short range engagement, and even then...if you are grouped...group > cover.

I would not call the BK a brawler per se...but I would put it in that range bracket out to 500m.

I suppose that is technically semantics...