137 replies to this topic

[Paigan]

Aresye, on 11 March 2016 - 05:27 PM, said:

In the eyes of the forums? Yes.
In reality? It still wouldn't be enough.

Reality is NOT what you personally would like to see.
I have several Gargoyle builds that are pretty viable and they don't even include the 12x light laser builds.

[Deathlike]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

I guess you guys forgot about the 455m 6ermeds. It can still dish out damage at range too. Not as much as the BK, but enough to cause concern, especially of a competent pilot xl checks you, something you cant do against a clan xl Gargoyle. Sure you can go for CT, but I have more CT than BK, and can easily twist and spread damage to the side torsos.

There are mechs that do 6 CERMEDs better. (Hello Nova.) That's the problem.

I mean, technically running 4 CERMEDs+Gauss on Mr. Gargles is more efficient (less heat to deal with, damage is similar), but then you have Timberwolf Laser vomit that does 2 CLPL+ 3(or more) CERMEDs... totally capable of overvomiting the Gargoyle.

[Aresye]

Paigan, on 12 March 2016 - 12:23 AM, said:

Reality is NOT what you personally would like to see.
I have several Gargoyle builds that are pretty viable and they don't even include the 12x light laser builds.

Viable in a certain niche and viable overall are two entirely different concepts.

Is the 12x CSPL or CERSL build a good build? Absolutely, but here's the thing...

That build is only viable if you have a team that is willing to push. Get Polar Highlands with nothing but LRM teammates vs. another LRM team? Hope you enjoy waiting, because until your team decides to close the distance (or the enemy team does), you're pretty much useless.

You could argue that instead of CSPL or CERSL you could take CERML, CMPL, or CLPL builds, but if you're going to run fewer (but hotter) weapons in a normal laser vomit config, then why not just take a TBR, HBR, or EBJ that has better hitboxes, hardpoints, and more available tonnage?

You could argue that this could serve a role in comp play in a brawling drop deck, but again, the Black Knight will more than likely be the better choice, or the ON1-VA, or the Atlas-S, or the EXE, or the Banshee-3M, etc.

The overall arguing point to improve the Gargoyle is that Clan players are getting rather sick of running the same good 4 or 5 mechs they have. The Mist Lynx is a POS, the Adder is a niche, the Kit Fox is a POS, the Shadowcat is a POS, the Nova is...okay (now), the IFR is a niche, the Mad Dog is EXTREMELY niche, the Gargoyle is niche, the Warhawk is okay, the Executioner is pretty good but requires a relatively high skill cap to use well. I'd even say the Dire Wolf is more of a niche mech now, due to how badly it got hit with the skill tree and mobility nerfs.

For the IS side I'd estimate there's at least a couple dozen unique mech variants that are solidly viable, in that they can perform well no matter what the matchmaker throws at you. The Clan side has 4-5, and all the loadouts are pretty much the same, creating a very stale gameplay experience for anybody who wants to play Clan.

That's one of the reasons I've started playing the 2 CERPPC Summoner. It's fun to run, a unique experience to pilot, and it's BECAUSE it got some nice quirks. Is it OP? Not even close.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 12 March 2016 - 01:04 AM, said:

Viable in a certain niche and viable overall are two entirely different concepts.

Is the 12x CSPL or CERSL build a good build? Absolutely, but here's the thing...

That build is only viable if you have a team that is willing to push. Get Polar Highlands with nothing but LRM teammates vs. another LRM team? Hope you enjoy waiting, because until your team decides to close the distance (or the enemy team does), you're pretty much useless.

You could argue that instead of CSPL or CERSL you could take CERML, CMPL, or CLPL builds, but if you're going to run fewer (but hotter) weapons in a normal laser vomit config, then why not just take a TBR, HBR, or EBJ that has better hitboxes, hardpoints, and more available tonnage?

You could argue that this could serve a role in comp play in a brawling drop deck, but again, the Black Knight will more than likely be the better choice, or the ON1-VA, or the Atlas-S, or the EXE, or the Banshee-3M, etc.

The overall arguing point to improve the Gargoyle is that Clan players are getting rather sick of running the same good 4 or 5 mechs they have. The Mist Lynx is a POS, the Adder is a niche, the Kit Fox is a POS, the Shadowcat is a POS, the Nova is...okay (now), the IFR is a niche, the Mad Dog is EXTREMELY niche, the Gargoyle is niche, the Warhawk is okay, the Executioner is pretty good but requires a relatively high skill cap to use well. I'd even say the Dire Wolf is more of a niche mech now, due to how badly it got hit with the skill tree and mobility nerfs.

For the IS side I'd estimate there's at least a couple dozen unique mech variants that are solidly viable, in that they can perform well no matter what the matchmaker throws at you. The Clan side has 4-5, and all the loadouts are pretty much the same, creating a very stale gameplay experience for anybody who wants to play Clan.

That's one of the reasons I've started playing the 2 CERPPC Summoner. It's fun to run, a unique experience to pilot, and it's BECAUSE it got some nice quirks. Is it OP? Not even close.

Yep.

I have 1 Dire for pug queue giggles, 2 Kit Foxes (for the lulz), 1 Nova that looks like a zebra for giggles, 3 ACH (to elite it) for actual use, 1 Jenner 2C for CW and 3 TBRs I got when they first came out.

So I've got 3 TBRs and either an ACH or Jenner depending on map and needs. If I'm going to play seriously the TBRs are all mid range brawlers with a mix of energy and dakka (SRMs are fun. I love them but too inconsistent to bank on if you're pugging in CW) and I've got as good a deck as anyone I'll play with or against, on any map. Sometimes I'll put a for-giggles build on a TBR (UAC20 + 4xSRM6 + 2 CERML, just to wreck a couple assaults solo on Portico and inspire a little 'Clans OP' tearrs as I go down in a blaze of glory) and still do good, because 3xTBRs + 1 Jenner/ACH is about as good as you get with a Clan deck. the 4x mix of EBJ/HBR is absolutely NOT worth me inveting the $ or cbills over because it's not particularly better and I'm going to be an IS loyalist when my tour is done.

Conversely I keep 12 IS mechs kitted, moduled and ready in my IS deck for CW and I still tweak it a lot and have a lot of fun with it. I have 90 IS mechs and *most* of them can be set up to play semi-viably in CW if not do just fine. I could put up 40 mechs and be able to play them effectively for the IS. Most the QDs, Hoppers, there's some rock solid Zeus builds, all the THDs, some Jags, I could go on and on. So many viable IS mechs.

Hell, IMO one of the best 35 tonners the IS has for CW is the Panther - 2LPLs on almost any of them. With structure quirks and hitboxes like a Wolfhound it can poke with 2xLPLs with stupid burn time reduction, range and heat perks and consistently put up 500+ damage on any map/mode. Brawling lights *can* be better, or you can get caught out of position and one-shotted down in that range. 450m with 2 LPLs that put out 22pts in 0.5 seconds and refire in ~2 seconds? On a mech with the structure (and armor bonuses) to let it tank like a 55 tonner? You'll learn to cope with the low mounts. If you want a consistent 35 ton performer on any map it's a beast and you can drop it on wave 2 or 3 and absolutely carry your weight, saving something bigger for wave 4 against good teams.

Anyway. There's a number of underrated IS mechs that can fill a good niche in a deck in CW. For Clans it's a tiny handful.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

6 er ml + 6 er smalls,9 er mediums or 1 lpl 5 er mediums seem to be the only somewhat consistent builds in the gargles.

[Nightshade24]

personally I think the gargoyle needs more help on the ammo consuming weapon department more than energy.

[Tarogato]

MischiefSC, on 12 March 2016 - 03:25 AM, said:

On a mech with the structure (and armor bonuses) to let it tank like a 55 tonner? You'll learn to cope with the low mounts

*ahem*

Panther has the torsos of a 38-tonner, only the legs are 55-tonner territory. And most people wind up shooting the torso on Panthers anyways because it doesn't usually expose its legs for very long.

[Metus regem]

Ultimax, on 11 March 2016 - 05:33 PM, said:

No, these quirks wouldn't be OP on the Gargoyle.

Its also irrelevant, for all we know they might nuke all quirks from orbit after the the new Ghost Heat MK 2 and start over, Russ has even mentioned as much on twitter.

If that happens I expect a sea of salty tears, that would make the ocean look like fresh water from everyone that has been chasing quirks.

[Dekallis]

heat reduction would be really nice for the garg.....would it be too nice? Possibly. The garg build I use is pretty much only hindered by how hot it runs and engagement ranges. If heat weren't a issue or at least less of an issue I could probably start sticking in battles longer rather than employing a strategy of hide pop out blam a guy(or two if i'm lucky) and fade away till heat cools off otherwise i end up overheating if i push too hard and dying due to shutdown or internals melting. But my garg is not everyones garg. My garg is meant to make a handful of people hurt alot and/or die and then hopes the team will

Personally the only things I'd want for the garg are missile hardpoints in the side torsos so i could mount srms and possibly make the prime configuration viable by adding more srm launchers to be the face punch it needs so lbx can do it's proper dps/innard ripping after srms blow away armor.(Funny enough I earned my ace of spades title with a garg using lbx/srms/and a laserfist.)Everbody told me lbx was bad....but that only made me more determined to make a lbx build work on a mech that has such nice quirks for it.

Other than that though it doesn't need too much, quirking. I'd rather have accelleration/speed quirks because it's playstyle is pretty dependent on being able to maneuver/gap close and get around corners. Or at least the way I play mine is.....I dunno what other people do with theirs. I've only seen a handful of other gargs and of those only one was using a build close to mine...every one was trying to be a large laser pop gun or a medium laser bruiser.

I doubt we'll ever get ammo quirks I feel like the recent buffs were just because they decided no on ammo quirks, because really how do you decide what gets ammo quirks and what doesn't? Why does one mech get them and another not? It's a slippery slope that basically amounts to pseudo weight saving.

[jjm1]

WOULD THE WORLD EXPLODE IF THE GARGOYLE..

could carry ballistics and ammunition without being stripped down to its structure

[Davegt27]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 March 2016 - 09:02 PM, said:

I already do pretty well in mine, and heck, my favorite is 2x LB-5X and 2xSRM4, lol. Actualyl prefer it to the LiteBrite Stinkfist of Destiny builds. But Gargoyle is my primary Clan Assault. The Secret is in how you use it. I run it like a large Medium. It can certainly use help, but it's not worthless, even now. Though I admit, I haven't had a chance to compare the freshly rejuvenated Executioner against it to see if my preference sticks.

I sold my Gargoyles so best of luck
Don’t get me wrong like the EXE it was a fun Mech but junk, as far as being a combat machine is concerned

Like the P400 (P39) of WWII era the Zero's would eat it for lunch

It’s a question on mission, purpose and vision of what an Assault Mech should be (a large slow Medium sounds like a recipe for a quick death)

There are Shadow Cats out there that can out gun a Gargoyle
I liked the Gargoyle but I had to get rid of them

[Aresye]

Nightshade24, on 12 March 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

personally I think the gargoyle needs more help on the ammo consuming weapon department more than energy.

It doesn't have the tonnage to support those weapons, no matter how good their quirks end up being. You'd literally have to give the Gargoyle pre-Dec4th Grid Iron level quirks to make it viable in a non-energy role.

[Gyrok]

Aresye, on 12 March 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

It doesn't have the tonnage to support those weapons, no matter how good their quirks end up being. You'd literally have to give the Gargoyle pre-Dec4th Grid Iron level quirks to make it viable in a non-energy role.

I would trololol if PGI gave it +500% ammo per ton quirks...it gets some nasty UAC quirks with both ballistic arms...you just cannot bring anything else...

[pbiggz]

Neither the world nor the thing the quirked gargoyle was shooting would explode because those quirks still suck.

Only the forums would explode.

[InspectorG]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

I guess you guys forgot about the 455m 6ermeds. It can still dish out damage at range too. Not as much as the BK, but enough to cause concern, especially of a competent pilot xl checks you, something you cant do against a clan xl Gargoyle. Sure you can go for CT, but I have more CT than BK, and can easily twist and spread damage to the side torsos.

Does he need to Xl check?

You need to present both shoulders to fire, he only need to slice off your ERML arm. You twist to save that arm you lose DPS.

He can twist on cooldown to protect his torso guns.(BK is all torso guns, yes? IDK) He would have duration advantage -LPL+quirk???

its prolly just gonna come down to piloting. He NASCARS right and pulls med range. IDK twist range on BK/Hopper. Depends on map. Can BK Jump?

Gargels has decent twist if i remember right. Has problems shooting 'down hill' if i remember. He could set up position downgrade and shoot up at your RT shoulder. /clan problems.

[InspectorG]

Dekallis, on 12 March 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

heat reduction would be really nice for the garg.....would it be too nice?

IMO, for Gargles and Summoner i would rather have Duration quirks for beams, following the theme of agile pokers. less facetime with beams would really benefit these dakka limited mechs.

33% ERLL duration would be pimp.

Russ mentioned ammo quirks for the endo-challenged clans. Not the biggest fan but its A solution without involving too much work.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

InspectorG, on 12 March 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Does he need to Xl check?

You need to present both shoulders to fire, he only need to slice off your ERML arm.

Still got 2 ermeds in the CT, plus the arm has structure quirks. I would easily get off 2 alphas even if he focused my arm, then I still got 2 ermeds and 6 ersmalls when I close the gap.

[InspectorG]

Alwrath, on 12 March 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Still got 2 ermeds in the CT, plus the arm has structure quirks. I would easily get off 2 alphas even if he focused my arm, then I still got 2 ermeds and 6 ersmalls when I close the gap.

I dont know the popular speeds/engines for Bk/Wubhopper.

Long as BK pulled range and rolled the better of your damage, those 2ERML wont amount to much.

You get 2 alphas, about 40 damage apiece. Each spread over 1 second burn. He has 2 shield arms. Is BK's head overly vulnerable to score CT hits?

Wubhopper could easily pull range with JJ, map depending. Mining/Bog/HPG would be problematic for the Gargles. Wubhopper is skinny but i dont know how well it tanks. I hear its decent enough.

I get the appeal of your Gargles build and want to try it, but.... iffy on the arm dependent weapons. Whats the total HP on an arm?

Forcing a mid-to-brawl is really gonna be map dependent and pilot skill dependent.

I can see the BK losing if he doesnt time/twist your ERML and pressure your arm as he pulls range.

A map with beneficial vertical terrain for the Wubhopper would let it control distance by just hopping over terrain while Gargles has to run around. If Wubhopper pilot was real good he could set up shots where he is minimally exposed and gets shots from above on your shoulders - potentially with terrain blocking your return fire.

Hard to say.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

InspectorG, on 12 March 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

I get the appeal of your Gargles build and want to try it, but.... iffy on the arm dependent weapons. Whats the total HP on an arm?

Its a fun ride. Being an 80 tonner im never too worried about losing my arms. 52 armor + structure bonuses. Sure it can happen, but it will always be a threat with the other arm and 2 ct ermeds.

Dont get me wrong, the BK and Hopper are both great mechs. IS XL and lower tonnage put them at a slight disadvantage against the Gargoyle in a 1 on 1, as it should be.

Edited by Alwrath, 12 March 2016 - 02:40 PM.

[2fast2stompy]

Can someone elaborate where the "armor of a 102 ton mech" comes from?

A 100 ton mech has hp of 927. Gargoyle has hp of 747 before quirks. It gets 76 structure on top for a total of 823. It then gets 26 armor if you use both 2E arms for a total of 849, or 52 armor for both ballistic arms for a total of 875 hp.

Add to that that max armor leaves you with whole 19.6 tons for weapons and ammo, and you can basically forget running ballistics. Additionally, unless I'm unaware of some perks to more structure, bigger armor trumps bigger structure, because of crits.

Even if it only takes armor into account, we're looking at a 100 tonner's 614 armor vs gargoyle's 494, MAYBE plus the 52 from two ballistic/missile arms for a total of 546.

So either my math is way, way off, or the gargoyle has nowhere near the HP, let alone armor, of a 102 ton mech.

EDIT: on second look, I see the structure quirks are not the same across all omnipods, so it actually has LESS hp than what I noted with ballistic arms

Edited by 2fast2stompy, 12 March 2016 - 02:48 PM.