137 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

Aresye, on 12 March 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

It doesn't have the tonnage to support those weapons, no matter how good their quirks end up being. You'd literally have to give the Gargoyle pre-Dec4th Grid Iron level quirks to make it viable in a non-energy role.

UAC 2's, UAC 5's, singular Gauss, singular UAC 20, singular UAC 10.
SRM 2's, 4's, 6's, SSRM 2's, 4's, LRM 5's, 10's, 15's, 20's [LRM gargoyles are derpy] can all fit with the current tonnage on the chassis. The stock Prime can fit a mix of SRM's and Ballistics.

[LordNothing]

the gargles is an effective laser brawler. there arent very many mechs that can be called a laser brawler, the bansh3m of course, maybe even the hunch 4p (though i like to think of that as more of an ambush predator because it overheats to fast to brawl actual). i like the 6-6 loadout. 6spl for close in knife fighting, and 6 erml for ranged fighting. my record is 3 consecutive kills before overheat.

Edited by LordNothing, 12 March 2016 - 05:09 PM.

[Tarogato]

2fast2stompy, on 12 March 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

Can someone elaborate where the "armor of a 102 ton mech" comes from?

A 100 ton mech has hp of 927. Gargoyle has hp of 747 before quirks. It gets 76 structure on top for a total of 823. It then gets 26 armor if you use both 2E arms for a total of 849, or 52 armor for both ballistic arms for a total of 875 hp.

Add to that that max armor leaves you with whole 19.6 tons for weapons and ammo, and you can basically forget running ballistics. Additionally, unless I'm unaware of some perks to more structure, bigger armor trumps bigger structure, because of crits.

Even if it only takes armor into account, we're looking at a 100 tonner's 614 armor vs gargoyle's 494, MAYBE plus the 52 from two ballistic/missile arms for a total of 546.

So either my math is way, way off, or the gargoyle has nowhere near the HP, let alone armor, of a 102 ton mech.

EDIT: on second look, I see the structure quirks are not the same across all omnipods, so it actually has LESS hp than what I noted with ballistic arms

It helps if you quote the person you're asking so that they know you're responding to them. I almost missed your comment.


How did I come to "102-tonner"?

You have two options with killing mechs, you either go for the CT, or you go for the legs - these two are mutually exclusive. If you shoot both, you're wasting damage. When you aim for the CT, the target will torso-twist to spread damage, and a good pilot should be able to use all the hitpoints on all three of his torsos in a perfect world. Thus we measure the durability of the torso as a whole.

Base values for an 80-tonner:

CT: 150 points (100 armour and 50 structure)
ST: 102 points each (68 armour and 50 structure)
Legs: 102 points each (68 armour and 50 structure)
Arms: 78 points each (52 armour and 26 structure)

Total of all three torsos: 354 = 150 + 102 + 102
Total of both legs: 204 = 102 + 102
Total of both arms: largely irrelevant, people don't generally aim specifically for them >


The Gargoyle also gets these quirks:

CT: +24 structure (all variants)
LT: +34 structure (all variants)
RT: +34 structure (all variants)
LL: +16 (all variants)
RL: +16 (all variants)

So we add those to the totals we already have,

Torso total: 446 = 354 + 24 +34 + 34

Legs total: 236 = 204 + 16 + 16



Now the base 100-tonner:

CT: 186 (124 armour and 62 structure)
ST: 126 each (84 armour and 42 structure)
Legs: 126 each (84 armour and 42 structure)
Arms: 102 each (68 armour and 34 structure)

Total of all three torsos: 438 = 186 + 126 + 126

Total of both legs: 252 = 126 + 126


Compare the two:

100-tonners like the DWF get 438 hitpoints across their entire torso.
The quirked Gargoyles all get 446 - slightly more than a 100-tonner.

How much more? Well, every time you go up increments of 5 in mech tonnage, you increase the torso (all three components) on average by 21.38 hitpoints. Gargoyle has 8 more hitpoints than the 100-tonner, so 8 ÷ 21.38 = 37.42% of a 5-ton increase. 37.42% of 5 tons is 1.87 tons ... so the Gargoyle has the torso durability of approximately a 101.87 tonnage mech.

If you do the same calculations to the legs, you find that the Gargoyle has 98-tonner legs... but honestly who legs Gargoyles? The last thing to consider is the arms, but I don't care to do exact calculations, it's not very important when you can look at the Gargoyle's arms and easily say that they tank damage better than the DWF's arms... so you could easily assert that the Gargoyle is simply tankier in practice than a Dire Wolf assuming its pilot can spread damage at least half-decently.

[Surn]

#Facepalm

[VirtualRiot]

I love my gargs but the engine is just way to freakin big. 12 ersl is fun as a gimmick, and 6 er meds with a fudgeton of heatsinks is ok.
I'm sure that being on the 4th or 5th page this will get glazed over, but I know what the gargs problem is. Big gorilla arms can be really useful for shielding, and shielding on a garg is super super easy. But when all you can pack is a bunch of low cooldown weapons, you can't twist to shield without saccing a bunch of dps. You just gotta facetank people and out dps them.
If the garg had a smaller engine, it could pack punchier higher cooldown weapons, and the proper amount of heatsinks.
Think of the Yen Lo Wang as an example of good shielding combined with high damage weapon. You pop an ac/20 shot, and twist to shield while your ac20 cools down, turn back, repeat.

[Aresye]

Nightshade24, on 12 March 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

UAC 2's, UAC 5's, singular Gauss, singular UAC 20, singular UAC 10.
SRM 2's, 4's, 6's, SSRM 2's, 4's, LRM 5's, 10's, 15's, 20's [LRM gargoyles are derpy] can all fit with the current tonnage on the chassis. The stock Prime can fit a mix of SRM's and Ballistics.

And you somehow thinks this makes the Gargoyle viable?

I was unaware that the criteria for an ASSAULT mech to be viable, is to be able to carry the same firepower as a freaking ADDER.

[Deathlike]

Aresye, on 12 March 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

And you somehow thinks this makes the Gargoyle viable?

I was unaware that the criteria for an ASSAULT mech to be viable, is to be able to carry the same firepower as a freaking ADDER.

Set the limbo bar lower!

[Nightshade24]

Aresye, on 12 March 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

And you somehow thinks this makes the Gargoyle viable?

I was unaware that the criteria for an ASSAULT mech to be viable, is to be able to carry the same firepower as a freaking ADDER.

Each mech has their own strengths and weaknesses.

For eg the Adder famously carries the same firepower as most heavy mechs...

Adder Prime: 2 x ER PPC, 1 x Flamer. (ER PPC = 15 damage x 2 = 30 damage at long range alpha)
Catapult K2 (stock, stock+, and popular build) = 2 x PPC, 2 x Medium laser (or pulse), 2 x Machine guns. That's less long range damage by 10
However up close it does the same damage as an adder with slightly better effeciency
Jagermech (MW: O popular build) 2 x Gauss rifle (2 x 15 damage = 30)

So yea... An adder is a 35 ton light mech doing the same damage of a 60-65 tonner.



You want to talk about the criteria of a meta assault? tell me where is the criteria of running an XL 400 on an assault is? or Running as fast if not faster than most heavy mechs out there and some mediums?

To make the gargoyle viable we should not destroy what makes it a gargoyle and replace it's weaknesses with the same copy paste strengths of any other generic mech. (which requires engine unlock/ endo steel unlock/ etc). Instead of say strengthening the weapons it can carry and what makes it unique (it's speed and agility, it's heat-efficient pack of weapons. etc)

I have personally played the stock trial Gargoyle Prime before and I walked away with 635 damage. I completely ran out of ammo by the end of the game but I did quite well in it. Not that it is optimal, would have traded the UAC 5's for 2's, more ammo, and an ER medium laser. However I am not the only one who thinks that enhancing it's traits instead of removing it's weaknesses is the best way to go with it. Russ has stated that ammo quirks will be a thing in the future and that the Gargoyle and Summoner are two key mechs it will be applied to. Thus making this charger like mech viable to the point people may actually play it without taking pain killers.

Edited by Nightshade24, 13 March 2016 - 12:53 AM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Aresye, on 11 March 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

LOL, against who? PGI's comp team in MRBC?

Care to post your extensive comp history and success with the Gargoyle in high level comp play? I only ask, because the only thing remotely competitive I know you for, is accusing SJR of cheating on these forums.

Hearing about PGI's "comp" team never ceases to put a smile on my face.

[2fast2stompy]

Tarogato, on 12 March 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

The Gargoyle also gets these quirks:

CT: +24 structure (all variants)
LT: +34 structure (all variants)
RT: +34 structure (all variants)
LL: +16 (all variants)
RL: +16 (all variants)

So we add those to the totals we already have,

Torso total: 446 = 354 + 24 +34 + 34

Legs total: 236 = 204 + 16 + 16

You doubled those values somehow, or the quirks changed. Either that, or I don't understand how the values are added.
According to my game it gets:
CT: +12
LT: +17
RT: +17
LL: +8
RL: +8

For a total of 400HP across the torsos, compared to an unquirked 100 tonner's 438.
I honestly doubt anyone would be complaining if the garg had that much structure with its speed.
For comparison, the Black Knight has 385 across the torsos.

I don't own a Gargoyle, even though I really want to like it, and the reason isn't the very limited pod space or the armor, it's the size. I just don't see any reason to take the Gargoyle over the Executioner when they're almost the same size at a 15 ton weight difference.

Edited by 2fast2stompy, 13 March 2016 - 03:46 AM.

[Tarogato]

2fast2stompy, on 13 March 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

You doubled those values somehow, or the quirks changed. Either that, or I don't understand how the values are added.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

Snafets quirks are all wrong. I had no idea. They're all doubled. Now I have to redo a table of a 314 f**** mechs...

Well, at least thanks for pointing that out to me.

[Gyrok]

Tarogato, on 13 March 2016 - 02:12 PM, said:

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck

Snafets quirks are all wrong. I had no idea. They're all doubled. Now I have to redo a table of a 314 f**** mechs...

Well, at least thanks for pointing that out to me.

Yes, and the Gargamel would like to not be overestimated now...

[Lord Perversor]

Nightshade24, on 12 March 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

You want to talk about the criteria of a meta assault? tell me where is the criteria of running an XL 400 on an assault is? or Running as fast if not faster than most heavy mechs out there and some mediums?

1st commandment of Lyran recon lances?

[pbiggz]

MechregSurn, on 12 March 2016 - 06:46 PM, said:

#Facepalm

Every time you post people respect your brain dead opinion a little less.

[Xulld]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

Dont have to when the Gargoyle is not brought in comp matches due to the rules.

What makes me qualified to say something on the Gargoyles behalf? I discovered its meta build, something you clearly have not. Thats what makes me qualified. Also, im kinda good at this game. I build mechs, kick ***, and chew bubblegum. Cant argue with that.

What do you mean when you say "meta build"? You make it sound like a secret?

[Corrado]

Alwrath, on 11 March 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

Gargoyle is awsome. run it with 6 ermeds 6 ersmalls not sure what you guys are doing wrong, its a good mech.

12 smalls here. i use it like a giant nova without jjs

[Nightshade24]

Lord Perversor, on 13 March 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

1st commandment of Lyran recon lances?

Fear my 5 small lasers of doom! (funny how we are talking about the Gargoyle having weapons equivalent of a heavy mech meanwhile the IS counterpart has less firepower than a Locust...)

[Sigilum Sanctum]

2fast2stompy, on 13 March 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

You doubled those values somehow, or the quirks changed. Either that, or I don't understand how the values are added.
According to my game it gets:
CT: +12
LT: +17
RT: +17
LL: +8
RL: +8

For a total of 400HP across the torsos, compared to an unquirked 100 tonner's 438.
I honestly doubt anyone would be complaining if the garg had that much structure with its speed.
For comparison, the Black Knight has 385 across the torsos.

I don't own a Gargoyle, even though I really want to like it, and the reason isn't the very limited pod space or the armor, it's the size. I just don't see any reason to take the Gargoyle over the Executioner when they're almost the same size at a 15 ton weight difference.

I'd argue the Gladbag is better.

It is for me, anyway.

[LegendaryArticuno]

Quirks make or break a mech, Gargoyle needs some love but the % of players that own Gargoyles are probably so low that it's not worth thinking up new quirks.

[Mole]

I do really well in my Gargoyle. It was my first clan assault mech. The Gargoyle doesn't need help. The pilots who don't know how to play it need help.