73 replies to this topic

[martian]

brroleg, on 12 March 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

So Jenner IIC is better, cause all light is need is firepower. See, "origins" mechs is better in 2 main categories - light and assault.

The Hankyu can be equipped with useful Clan ECM Suite, while the Jenner IIC can't.

[Andi Nagasia]

martian, on 12 March 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

The Hankyu can be equipped with useful Clan ECM Suite, while the Jenner IIC can't.

well the HBK IIC can Rock more Ballistics than Any other Clan Medium,
and the ORN IIC is,... its,.... ok its ORN, im sure their must be something?

[Mcgral18]

brroleg, on 12 March 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

Its not trolling (maybe a little).
Question is: according to lore, "origins" mechs should or should not be superior to omni?

Lore means nothing.

Jenner competes with the Hankyu, and Sadder for range.
It outright beats the Trash Tier, but is quite fragile.

Hunch...is a mech. It's not bad, but the SadCat does long range better, Fridge (lol) does mid range alright due to the speed advantage and quirks, but the high mounts give it a different mid range role.
Short range, Nova absolutely dominates it, as does the Crow. Hunch lacks the hitboxes to take a solid punch (without losing the majority of the firepower).

Hunch is my favourite of the pack.

Onion is outright worse than most of the Clam Omnis
LowLander IIC is also worse than most alternatives.


Lore means very little, I'll reiterate, and rarely translates into MWO.
What's needed is robot to robot comparisons. When you say Omni, you include Trash Tier and God Tier omnis, which is horribly inaccurate and broad.

[Anyone00]

Here's how I think omnimechs can be buffed: have a few omnipods set-ups that can be selected after the map is reveled/right-before-drop.

Yeah, technical issues.

[Zerberus]

brroleg, on 12 March 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

It can fit 4 lrm20 and some lasers. Like daishi but not so huge

So can a Stormcrow, Summoner or Maddog, in fact they can do 95, 100, and 100 , respectively. And there it actually makes a modicum of of sense as a troll build. LRM 65 + on anything is either terribad or intentionally trolling the enemy, so at least do it right instead of trolling your own team by wasting an assault mech for it.

And this is coming from someone that generally runs LRMs in PUG more than anything else....60 is the line where you go from boat to troll, and then you may as well go all in and throw away everything that´s not an LRM rack or a ton of ammo, incl armor.

Edited by Zerberus, 12 March 2016 - 04:41 PM.

[FLG 01]

A word of advice: I remember the OP from the Wargame RD forum. His threads were never to be taken serious. It seems it is the same in MWO.

[Shatara]

brroleg, on 12 March 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

Its not trolling (maybe a little).
Question is: according to lore, "origins" mechs should or should not be superior to omni?

Omnimechs were considered superior to 'second line' battlemechs. However, many were just as good or better in practice.

Considering that the only lore advantages to being 'omni' are long-term logistics and the ability to strap battlesuits to your chest, neither of which exist in MWO...

[SmoothCriminal]

Have you actually used the origin IIC mechs, or did one just touch you in a bad place?

Let you in on a little secret - IIC mechs are (very) widely regarded as being inferior to the best clan omnis - and even most IS higher tier mechs...

[Malachy Karrde]

I'd take an omni mech over any equal tonnage of IS mech any day. But that's personal preference. Only crappy mech and worse pilots need quirks to be competitive.

[Andi Nagasia]

Malachy Karrde, on 12 March 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

I'd take an omni mech over any equal tonnage of IS mech any day. But that's personal preference. Only crappy mech and worse pilots need quirks to be competitive.

Not sure if Serious, Trolling or Sarcastic?

[Malachy Karrde]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 March 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

Not sure if Serious, Trolling or Sarcastic?

Seriously sarcastic.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

did you just ask the OmniMechs to be buffed, because the borderline overpowered mechs are better than them?

GJ, you win a prize
take a guess which one

[Malachy Karrde]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 12 March 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

did you just ask the OmniMechs to be buffed, because the borderline overpowered mechs are better than them?

GJ, you win a prize
take a guess which one

not me... omni mech are awesome in my book.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

Malachy Karrde, on 12 March 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

not me... omni mech are awesome in my book.

tbh i was only insulting the OP, because i did not even bother to read the entire thread

[Widowmaker1981]

The currently existing IIC mechs all have huge flaws - the jenner has a huge CT and no lower arm actuation (very helpful for brawling/drive by lights), the Hunchback has huge STs, the Orion has an absurd LT hitbox issue making any missile builds risky at best and low mounted anaemic ballistic/energy hardpoints and the Highlander suffers from the same 3 way type hardpoint split as the orion, plus low engine cap. None of them have any quirks.

However, in principle, full customisation is hugely more valuable than hardpoint swapping for larger mechs. In TT all mechs (and by extension Omnimechs in MWO due to locked engines) have to abide by a formula of desired move speed times tonnage equals engine rating, giving two choices - slow gunbag or overengined speed monkey. Being able to choose half way in between is enormously valuable, more so than specific hardpoint customisations - there is usually a variant with the hardpoints to do what you want anyway, but there is no fixing Dire Wolf slowness, or Gargoyle's medium worthy loadout.

I suspect the kodiak will show it, but if not future clan battlemechs will, once we get ones with good geometry they will be terrifying.

TL:DR - Geometry and hitboxes are all important, far more so than techline, and the current IICs have awful geo and hitboxes.

[Mcgral18]

Widowmaker1981, on 12 March 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

The currently existing IIC mechs all have huge flaws - the jenner has a huge CT and no lower arm actuation (very helpful for brawling/drive by lights), the Hunchback has huge STs, the Orion has an absurd LT hitbox issue making any missile builds risky at best and low mounted anaemic ballistic/energy hardpoints and the Highlander suffers from the same 3 way type hardpoint split as the orion, plus low engine cap. None of them have any quirks.

However, in principle, full customisation is hugely more valuable than hardpoint swapping for larger mechs. In TT all mechs (and by extension Omnimechs in MWO due to locked engines) have to abide by a formula of desired move speed times tonnage equals engine rating, giving two choices - slow gunbag or overengined speed monkey. Being able to choose half way in between is enormously valuable, more so than specific hardpoint customisations - there is usually a variant with the hardpoints to do what you want anyway, but there is no fixing Dire Wolf slowness, or Gargoyle's medium worthy loadout.

I suspect the kodiak will show it, but if not future clan battlemechs will, once we get ones with good geometry they will be terrifying.

TL:DR - Geometry and hitboxes are all important, far more so than techline, and the current IICs have awful geo and hitboxes.

A BJ Clam Battlemech, for example...or a 75 ton Jager?

High mounted arms, non-explosive STs (no Gauss like Hunch, or isXL fragility), something to take full advantage of the lightweight Dakka, without geometry disadvantages.


I guess Engine cap also fits into it (see HGN IIC).

It's like any mech...they're just more forgiving.

[Malachy Karrde]

If dire wolf was any faster, there wouldn't be a need for any other mech on the battlefield.

[Surn]

#LOL

[Zerberus]

Widowmaker1981, on 12 March 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

The currently existing IIC mechs all have huge flaws - the jenner has a huge CT and no lower arm actuation (very helpful for brawling/drive by lights), ..

For the record, No jenner ever had lower arm actuators.

And there´s a really simple reason for it... so simple it´s just stupid.

There is no such thing as a Jenner with lower arms.

Think about it, the lower arm actuator is essentially an elbow... And what good does an elbow do you when your arm ends at the shoulder?

What do people expect, a fully articulated steel plate with hands?

Edited by Zerberus, 12 March 2016 - 07:20 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Malachy Karrde, on 12 March 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

If dire wolf was any faster, there wouldn't be a need for any other mech on the battlefield.

Look up NovaWolf same as DWF but XL400, goes WHK speeds, but thats about it,
sadly would still get stopped by Light mechs and Pebbles,