220 replies to this topic

[Lordred]

The more I play, the more I am feeling that we really should make IS XL act like C-XL.

By that I am not saying it should take up less critical space, but only that it should gain the extra ruggedness that C-XL enjoys, lose a ST, and keep fighting, lose the second one, good night. This wouldn't render the Standard engine completely obsolete for the IS either.

We would need to use the same penalties the C-XL suffers from loss of a ST, or perhaps slightly higher ones to off set that the C-XL is clearly better then the IS-XL, perhaps a 50% speed reduction. (throwing wild numbers at the wall)


I am sure this is just going to bring out more fighting about X is OP, or Y is OP.

But I'm really coming around to the idea of making IS-XLs able to lose a ST and not be knocked out.


Fight on Forum Warriors.

[CDLord HHGD]

EDIT: I would explain why but I doubt you'd care.

Edited by cdlord, 14 March 2016 - 11:30 AM.

[Lordred]

Learned long ago to not care what people say on the forums, but I welcome your well thought out argument.

Currently mine stands as an opinion, not well formulated or even articulated.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lordred, on 14 March 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

This wouldn't render the Standard engine completely obsolete for the IS either.

It would, but that doesn't mean it is a bad idea.

That said, I would totally start running this so it may not be quite as pleasant for some: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a405a7f28d71b54

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 March 2016 - 11:33 AM.

[STEF_]

Lordred, on 14 March 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

Fight on Forum Warriors.

An Already Tired Subject.

And I'm feeling tired too.

[Lugh]

Lordred, on 14 March 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

The more I play, the more I am feeling that we really should make IS XL act like C-XL.

By that I am not saying it should take up less critical space, but only that it should gain the extra ruggedness that C-XL enjoys, lose a ST, and keep fighting, lose the second one, good night. This wouldn't render the Standard engine completely obsolete for the IS either.

We would need to use the same penalties the C-XL suffers from loss of a ST, or perhaps slightly higher ones to off set that the C-XL is clearly better then the IS-XL, perhaps a 50% speed reduction. (throwing wild numbers at the wall)


I am sure this is just going to bring out more fighting about X is OP, or Y is OP.

But I'm really coming around to the idea of making IS-XLs able to lose a ST and not be knocked out.


Fight on Forum Warriors.

Ok in return you give ultimate customization for ALL clan chassis unlocking all locked pod bits, including the ability to put a bigger engine in my Dire, endo and ferro for all, and you can have it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lordred, on 14 March 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

The more I play, the more I am feeling that we really should make IS XL act like C-XL.

By that I am not saying it should take up less critical space, but only that it should gain the extra ruggedness that C-XL enjoys, lose a ST, and keep fighting, lose the second one, good night. This wouldn't render the Standard engine completely obsolete for the IS either.

We would need to use the same penalties the C-XL suffers from loss of a ST, or perhaps slightly higher ones to off set that the C-XL is clearly better then the IS-XL, perhaps a 50% speed reduction. (throwing wild numbers at the wall)


I am sure this is just going to bring out more fighting about X is OP, or Y is OP.

But I'm really coming around to the idea of making IS-XLs able to lose a ST and not be knocked out.


Fight on Forum Warriors.

Can't support. Doing so would utterly invalidate the Light Fusion Engine for the IS, as well as the STD engine in virtually all cases but when you absolutely HAVE to pack an AC20 in an ST.

People can try the zombie card, but simply, nope. There is no scenario IMO one wouldn't be better served with a Clan XL than a slower, less armed "zombie" STD build.

Nope
Nope
Nope
Nope
NOPE

[Gentleman Reaper]

I have my own ideas on how to balance every engine type:

Clan Extra-Light: Maybe worse penalties for torso loss (slower, more heat), otherwise no structure nerfs, as I feel Clan mechs shouldn't get squishier.

IS/Clan Standard: Decent buff to CT and ST structure durability.

IS Extra-Light: Structure buff to STs, making it more difficult to lose the ST over the Clan XL.

IS Light: No penalties for losing side torso, but no structure buffs so that Std is not obsolete on most mechs.

IS Extra-Extra-Light: Large heat penalty in general, mostly used to turn mechs into scouts with lots of support equipment.

[Bilbo]

Lordred, on 14 March 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

The more I play, the more I am feeling that we really should make IS XL act like C-XL.

By that I am not saying it should take up less critical space, but only that it should gain the extra ruggedness that C-XL enjoys, lose a ST, and keep fighting, lose the second one, good night. This wouldn't render the Standard engine completely obsolete for the IS either.

We would need to use the same penalties the C-XL suffers from loss of a ST, or perhaps slightly higher ones to off set that the C-XL is clearly better then the IS-XL, perhaps a 50% speed reduction. (throwing wild numbers at the wall)


I am sure this is just going to bring out more fighting about X is OP, or Y is OP.

But I'm really coming around to the idea of making IS-XLs able to lose a ST and not be knocked out.


Fight on Forum Warriors.

I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't obsolete IS standard engines. If IS XLs behaved the same as Clan XLs, even I would start taking smaller ballistics, that take less criticals than an AC/20, for the extra speed and heat sinks.

[Luminis]

Well, instead of adding a speed and heat penalty for the C-XL, I, personally, would've preferred just keeping that thing the way it was and, instead, allowing the IS-XL to survive a ST loss as well. At the cost of incurring the penalties the C-XL suffers from a lost ST right now.

That's a missed opportunity, imho, but it's hardly going to get reversed, I think.

Be that as it may, both IS- and C-XL engines behaving the same upon ST loss might require an entire rework of the structure quirks that, in my opinion, are at least partially in place to compensate for the lack of survivability of the IS-XL.

Edited by Luminis, 14 March 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[Lordred]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 March 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Can't support. Doing so would utterly invalidate the Light Fusion Engine for the IS, as well as the STD engine in virtually all cases but when you absolutely HAVE to pack an AC20 in an ST.

LFE would need a several year jump in the timeline for us to have. Would result in lots of new tech, I would be down for that, but lets be realistic, I doubt they will do a time line jump.

Or we could say forget the time line, and inject the LFE.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 March 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Can't support. Doing so would utterly invalidate the Light Fusion Engine for the IS, as well as the STD engine in virtually all cases but when you absolutely HAVE to pack an AC20 in an ST.

That is kind of missing the point though since the Clan XL puts any Clan omni stuck with a STD in a rough position. I'd say this should only be part of a balancing act. Change the iXL to survive as well as the cXL, but give STDs a serious buff (LFEs would get half of said buff), because they've been needing it for a while now.

Also, WTB agility being detached from engine rating, PLOX.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 March 2016 - 11:48 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Lordred, on 14 March 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

The more I play, the more I am feeling that we really should make IS XL act like C-XL.

By that I am not saying it should take up less critical space, but only that it should gain the extra ruggedness that C-XL enjoys, lose a ST, and keep fighting, lose the second one, good night. This wouldn't render the Standard engine completely obsolete for the IS either.

We would need to use the same penalties the C-XL suffers from loss of a ST, or perhaps slightly higher ones to off set that the C-XL is clearly better then the IS-XL, perhaps a 50% speed reduction. (throwing wild numbers at the wall)


I am sure this is just going to bring out more fighting about X is OP, or Y is OP.

But I'm really coming around to the idea of making IS-XLs able to lose a ST and not be knocked out.


Fight on Forum Warriors.

I'd argue (and have in the past) that a better approach to not utterly invalidating STD engines at the same time is to have standard engines grant a structural bonus to all three torso segments. This would serve to increase standard engine value, and even make clan standard engines worth considering.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 March 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Can't support. Doing so would utterly invalidate the Light Fusion Engine for the IS, as well as the STD engine in virtually all cases but when you absolutely HAVE to pack an AC20 in an ST.

People can try the zombie card, but simply, nope. There is no scenario IMO one wouldn't be better served with a Clan XL than a slower, less armed "zombie" STD build.

Nope
Nope
Nope
Nope
NOPE

Really?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fd99256b68ff707

Seems like that one would be just fine...likely even better off with a STD, especially since you retain 60% of your firepower in your CT and head...

[Aresye]

It's a trade off. Do you want survivable side torso loss at the cost of losing most of the structure buffs and mobility quirks that were put in place to help balance that vulnerability, or would you rather keep the structure buffs and mobility quirks at the cost of not having survivable side torso loss?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 14 March 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

I'd argue (and have in the past) that a better approach to not utterly invalidating STD engines at the same time is to have standard engines grant a structural bonus to all three torso segments. This would serve to increase standard engine value, and even make clan standard engines worth considering.

This and maybe a heat cap boost would definitely help.

STD = 100% extra internals in all torso sections. (maybe 50% extra heat cap)
LFE = 50% extra internals in all torso sections. (maybe 25% extra heat cap)

[Gentleman Reaper]

I also forgot about the Compact engine, I'm thinking even larger buffs to structure and heat cap, allowing you to build zombie mechs in the truest term, such as the Wight http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wight

[TexAce]

TTK is low because we reached a tipping point somewhere last year where most mechs went XL.

Think about it, if 10% are XL, 90% are STD the playstyle, the whole dynamic is pretty slow. Everyone is more durable.

Now that most are XL, you are in a disadvantage with an STD. Yes you can tank more, but if you are the only one with a STD and all your enemies are XLs, they will crush you FASTER than you can kill them by ST loss.
Because they are more agile and have way more firepower than you.

That was no problem before, because it was a RISK to go XL. Now that everyone does it, it is a risk to go STD.

Seriously, go through your mechs, how many do still have STD engines? I bet less than 25%.

Whole game dynamic changed when we reached the point where it was more common to have an XL than a STD. TTK went down.

This proposal would make STD even more obsolete, it would make XLs a MENDATORY on IS side. Everyone wit an STD would instantly be gimped. Every new player would be even more gimped, since XLs are way too expensive for them.

It would be like being the only assault against only lights, except that the lights have way more firepower than you. Oh "aim side torso" you say? Well have fun trying when everyone on the enemy team is torso twisting way faster than you can move your mech.

So NO, definately against this. We should even try to curb back the XL usage but seems to be impossible now.

Edited by TexAce, 14 March 2016 - 12:42 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I'm all for making the IS XL engine function like the Clan XL. I've never found the choice between XL and STD to be a compelling one. Hit boxes usually determined which engine type was used and that was often a large part of what determined if a mech was good or not.

Quirks would almost certainly need another look afterwards. Standard engines would be virtually worthless, but I'm sure people could come up with some kind of interesting buff for that. Don't care about LFE. It isn't in game and there is no indication that it ever will be.

[Homeskilit]

Welcome to the light my friend