220 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Revis Volek, on 14 March 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

All water is not wet....Ice is pretty dry.


Damn those blanket statements!

Ice is not technically water, as it is a solid. Water would be the liquid form of h2o...though, as Ice begins to melt and turns into water, it becomes wet again.

Either way...case and point.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 March 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

Yes, Gyrok is salty clans not OP enough.

But that's a conversation for a different thread.

And your build still is in no way better for having an STD than it would be for having a clan 325XL and 8 more free tons to play with. Since yes, you do go slower and run hotter if you lose a side.... after already running faster, cooler and packing more punch before losing said side.

Front loaded damage is a match matters a heck of a lot more than your fixation with "Zombie" builds.... which is why you see essentially ZERO Origin IICs running around with STDs, not even the HBK-IIC-A Laservomit.

Where did I ever actually say anything regarding the strength of clan mechs in any post in this thread?

You are now projecting something you wrongly associate onto me, and are putting words in my mouth.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 14 March 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

LFE is another option however ISXL and STD would need significant buffs to remain viable vs LFE.

They wouldn't require buffs though, LFE saves proportionally less weight than XL and is also proportionally more fragile than STD, so it's already balanced between the other 2 engines; if anything the LFE is what would be invalidated if XL and STD were buffed further.

It would not be the case that XL and STD engines were no longer viable, it's just that a number of mechs would consider using LFE over XL or STD because a middle ground between XL and STD would be the better option for various mechs/builds, but XL and STD engines would still have their place and that's perfectly fine.

Meanwhile, buffing IS XL definitely would make the STD engine obsolete without also applying a huge buff to it as well, and LFE would be completely pointless without some equally absurd & arbitrary buff even though the LFE is the correct solution here.

Edited by Pjwned, 14 March 2016 - 09:24 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

They wouldn't require buffs though, LFE saves less proportionally less weight than XL and is also proportionally more fragile than STD, so it's already balanced between the other 2 engines; if anything the LFE is what would be invalidated if XL and STD were buffed further.

Yes but LFEs survivability is more than worth than weight and the weight savings makes it outright better than STD.

ISXL/STD would still need a buff to be comparable. All three engines should be equal. LFE should not replace the other two.

Edited by Khobai, 14 March 2016 - 02:25 PM.

[thehiddenedge]

I know this is a craaazy idea, but instead of making isXL's roughly equal to cXL's, why not buff Std. engines to compensate?

One idea I've suggested in the past is to make Std. engines have a higher twist rate. From a physics perspective, two engines having the same mass, one centered on the axis and one spread out over side torsi, the one with more focused mass will be easier to twist. Granted, the XL will have a higher output, but the Std. will require less power to achieve the same speed. So making a Std. engine have equivalent twist rate to an XL of the same mass actually makes sense all other mass from weapons, heatsinks, etc.. notwithstanding.

I mean yeah, you still get the weight and speed advantage with an XL, but for me anyway, twist speed is a big factor in choosing higher rated engines. This is also great boon to some assaults that are almost forced to use a Std. engine due to hitboxes. You carry less weapons than the XL mechs, but it is much easier to bring those weapons to bear and twist away damage. This will inevitably help with the XL speed creep that's been occurring and hurting mechs that are considered an XL death trap.

Oh and the best part is: it doesn't bastardize the construction ruleset, because there isn't a rule tying twist speed to engine rating, that's PGI's thing

Edited by thehiddenedge, 14 March 2016 - 03:54 PM.

[Destoroyah]

The LFE would invalidate STD and IS XL engines.

STD would be almost completely obsoleted cause who would not take a few extra free tons over a very slight loss in survivability. Most IS mechs can't zombie worth a dam and even then your very onlikely to reach zombie statis before getting killed so LFE is always the better option. The only reason weak as it is I can see to use a STD is if you really need that extra crit space. It's like comparing ferro vrs endo if you only could equip one, No reasonable person would use ferro over endo.

IS XL vrs LFE is a bit murkier. Yes IS XL saves you a little more weight, but the survivability sacrifice is huge. The only mechs that would get any real value out of IS XL is Lights since every ton matters for them and they got the size and speed to help offset the IS XL fragility. However most bigger mechs would rather take the LFE even if it means less weight saving cause the survivability boost is so much more valuable.

Which is Why STD and IS XL need buffs to them to make choosing between the three engine types a tactical option instead of almost must upgrade to LFE except in very few cases.

I like the idea of structure buffs to the STD and IS XL.

STD gets substantial structure to all torso's making the mech very tanky but at the cost of speed and arms. Gives clan Battlemechs a reason to use their STD engines.

IS XL Slight buff to ST structure but is overall still more fragile compared to combined HP of 2 ST armor and structure that is required for LFEs and Clan XL. But get good weight saving as the tradeoff.

LFE act like Clan XL but since they save less weight then Clan XL they don't suffer as near as heavy penalties on ST loss that the Clan XL does.

Edited by Destoroyah, 14 March 2016 - 02:54 PM.

[Gyrok]

Destoroyah, on 14 March 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

The LFE would invalidate STD and IS XL engines.

STD would be almost completely obsoleted cause who would not take a few extra free tons over a very slight loss in survivability. Most IS mechs can't zombie worth a dam and even then your very onlikely to reach zombie statis before getting killed so LFE is always the better option. The only reason weak as it is I can see to use a STD is if you really need that extra crit space. It's like comparing ferro vrs endo if you only could equip one, No reasonable person would use ferro over endo.

IS XL vrs Ferro is a bit murkier. Yes IS XL saves you a little more weight, but the survivability sacrifice is huge. The only mechs that would get any real value out of IS XL is Lights since every ton matters for them and they got the size and speed to help offset the IS XL fragility. However most bigger mechs would rather take the LFE even if it means less weight saving cause the survivability boost is so much more valuable.

IS XL is still a no brainer for lights and mediums that need a big engine...speed in a small package > extra tankiness.

Other scenarios it gets murkier...but only in scenarios where a mech was almost a lock for needing a STD engine.

[ScarecrowES]

Let's negotiate.

IS wants more tanky XL engines. Ok.

In exchange, I want to be able to swap engine sizes on my omnis. I want to be able to swap endo and ferro on any mech. I want hardpoint inflation. I want autocannons that fire a single round per pull of the trigger. I want missiles that fire simultaneously instead of sequentially. Oh, and I want the burn time on my lasers to be shorter.

Cuz of course, if we're only going to look at a single factor for "balance," then I want all of MY single factors to be balanced too.

[Pjwned]

Khobai, on 14 March 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

Yes but LFEs survivability is more than worth than weight

No it isn't, on top of its reduced weight savings you still deal with losing half of your mech and additional penalties to movement & heat every time you lose a side torso, and while it's not entirely significant (but is still something, even if, again, rather insignificant) you also can't make a true zombie mech with a LFE.

Quote

and the weight savings makes it outright better than STD.

Again no it doesn't, STD engines do not weigh so much more (and LFEs do not weigh so much less) that you would never think to use STD over LFE to avoid the engine damage penalties from a equipping a LFE.

Quote

ISXL/STD would still need a buff to be comparable. All three engines should be equal. LFE should not replace the other two.

No, they wouldn't need buffs unless your goal was to make the LFE invalid immediately after introducing it. Your problem seems to be that mechs would actually use the LFE over the other 2 engine types, even though again the STD and XL engines would have their place as well.

[braveheart95]

Why are we attempting to balance against a item that isn't even in the game yet? We have to timetable as to when we are even getting this advance tech anytime soon....

[Haakon Magnusson]

ScarecrowES, on 14 March 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Let's negotiate.

IS wants more tanky XL engines. Ok.

In exchange, I want to be able to swap engine sizes on my omnis. I want to be able to swap endo and ferro on any mech. I want hardpoint inflation. I want autocannons that fire a single round per pull of the trigger. I want missiles that fire simultaneously instead of sequentially. Oh, and I want the burn time on my lasers to be shorter.

Cuz of course, if we're only going to look at a single factor for "balance," then I want all of MY single factors to be balanced too.

Alright, lets exchange further, when you get the lower (hell, even same) burn times and single slugs I want the lower tonnage weapons

[Pjwned]

braveheart95, on 14 March 2016 - 03:04 PM, said:

Why are we attempting to balance against a item that isn't even in the game yet? We have to timetable as to when we are even getting this advance tech anytime soon....

The thing is, that's not the only concern because OP's proposal also throws the current balance off course even more by power creeping the hell out of IS XL (and consequently, STD engines as well so that they're not literally pointless) and that is bad.

[Yardsail]

Haakon Magnusson, on 14 March 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

Alright, lets exchange further, when you get the lower (hell, even same) burn times and single slugs I want the lower tonnage weapons

Don't forget 8 crit slot endo and fero!
If I could un-lock a omnimech engine I don't think I would even bother putting a different engine in. Same goes with endo and ferro.

[ScarecrowES]

Haakon Magnusson, on 14 March 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

Alright, lets exchange further, when you get the lower (hell, even same) burn times and single slugs I want the lower tonnage weapons

Slippery slope isn't it?

Having a less tanky engine is about the only thing keeping IS/Clan as close in balance as they are right now. If you encourage more IS to run XL and not take on the risks associated with that, you're basically giving them a chunk of extra tonnage to make even better use of the myriad advantages IS mechs have over Omnis. It's a pretty silly notion. Honestly, you won't NEED the lower weapon tonnage if you already have lighter tanky engines.

[Haakon Magnusson]

n o x i D, on 14 March 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

Don't forget 8 crit slot endo and fero!
If I could un-lock a omnimech engine I don't think I would even bother putting a different engine in. Same goes with endo and ferro.

That was goign to be the tradeoff for unlocking endo and FF.. but at the same time omnis will need to have omnimodules converted to fixed parts

[Mcgral18]

ScarecrowES, on 14 March 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

Slippery slope isn't it?

Having a less tanky engine is about the only thing keeping IS/Clan as close in balance as they are right now. If you encourage more IS to run XL and not take on the risks associated with that, you're basically giving them a chunk of extra tonnage to make even better use of the myriad advantages IS mechs have over Omnis. It's a pretty silly notion. Honestly, you won't NEED the lower weapon tonnage if you already have lighter tanky engines.

That's not true.

Oodles of quirks are what make the balance a broad stroke, with some robots remaining worthless and others being significantly superior.

The Omnimechs (and Clam Battlemechs) retain a significant tech advantage aside from the engine, including HALF SIZE upgrades (Ferro+Endo for the price of isEndo), Ferro being 8% superior and half the size, free, superior CASE (mounted everywhere), lighter weapons with superior Dam/tick lasers in all but 2 cases (fewer quirks means that advantage might have to be adjusted).

You omit a significant amount of items to try and push your agenda.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 14 March 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

That's not true.

Oodles of quirks are what make the balance a broad stroke, with some robots remaining worthless and others being significantly superior.

The Omnimechs (and Clam Battlemechs) retain a significant tech advantage aside from the engine, including HALF SIZE upgrades (Ferro+Endo for the price of isEndo), Ferro being 8% superior and half the size, free, superior CASE (mounted everywhere), lighter weapons with superior Dam/tick lasers in all but 2 cases (fewer quirks means that advantage might have to be adjusted).

You omit a significant amount of items to try and push your agenda.

Mirror balance is dull, boring, and unnecessary.

The structure quirks that IS mechs currently enjoy are far more significant than clan mechs being able to lose a ST.

You can actually take a hit to an open component on a WHM or BK...on a clan mech, if your ST opens up...kiss it goodbye.

These are valid asymmetrical trade offs.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Sure, just strip all the ridiculous structure bonuses and give us LFE as well.

[Andi Nagasia]

Ok this has gone on long enough,

Ill ASK Russ if He could do an Internal test with Survivable IS-XLs,

but ill Guarantee that if IS-XL do go that Route,
Expect Nerfing of all IS-ST Structure across the Board!

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 March 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

Ok this has gone on long enough,

Ill ASK Russ if He could do an Internal test with Survivable IS-XLs,

but ill Guarantee that if IS-XL do go that Route,
Expect Nerfing of all IS-ST Structure across the Board!

And I'll tell you right now, it will never happen. This would break far more stuff and start a much more slippery slope than unlocking Endo and Ferro, and he won't even go there, let alone to this degree, which to be frank, is pretty dang ridiculous.