33 replies to this topic

[TheAlphaStrike]

Hey guys, newbie here.
I have just finished all of my cadet bonuses and looking to build a deck for clan wars as well as pug play. I did my research and it seems at the forefront for the clans are the Timberwolf and Ebon Jaguars. I have tried both of the trial mechs versions and did pretty well in both of them. Now, I'm looking to elite my first mech and am very split on choosing between the two. One of the main things that I'm looking for are high mounts. Both the EBJ and TBR have em it seems. However, I'm looking to run a guass/laser vomit with a preferable high mount for the gauss. It seems that the EBJ has that along with high mounts for the two large pulses that I'm looking to run with. Is it worth to give up the armor and jump jets of the TBR for them? And it seems that the timberwolf can run better laser vomit builds as well. Please help me decide with valid opinions and reasons to back them up.
Thank you and good hunting.

Edited by TheAlphaStrike, 18 March 2016 - 07:49 AM.

[Cion]

Are you ready? Are you ready?
FIGHT!
(not my image)


edit: added second image

Edited by Cion, 18 March 2016 - 07:58 AM.

[KinLuu]

IMHO the TBR is the more solid performer, because of the huge hitbox issues of the EBJ. Those really hold the EBJ back.

[Pariah Devalis]

Under the current tonnage limits for CW, you can actually get away with 4x 65 ton mechs. Food for thought. That said, the EBJ has superior pod space allotments and a great variety of omnipod types, so you can load an EBJ out as a laserboat or as a ballistic platform. All the hardpoints on an EBJ are well placed, either in line with the cockpit or above it. The TBR has more armor and is easier to armor roll with, since the EBJ has the body plan of a horizontal plank of wood making it extremely easy to direct fire to specific components. The TBR also has the options for jump jets, but many of its hardpoints are below cockpit level.

However, I find myself more of a fan of the EBJ. The overall flexibility of the chassis, the weapon placement, and its dashing good looks is enough for me to prefer it over the TBR. Note, though, that the EBJ should rarely be in the front line. It is more of a mid line to rear line mech, due to being a bit squishy.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 18 March 2016 - 07:56 AM.

[mogs01gt]

For PUG play, IMO the EBJ fails compared to the TBR. It feels way more fragile than what it should be and once you pack on any damage, it runs hot! Im about ready to sell mine simply because I have the TBR elited and it can do anything the EBJ can do. Plus I do not play CW.

Edited by mogs01gt, 18 March 2016 - 08:04 AM.

[TheAlphaStrike]

KinLuu, on 18 March 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

IMHO the TBR is the more solid performer, because of the huge hitbox issues of the EBJ. Those really hold the EBJ back.

Could you please explain to me what you mean by these hitboxes? I'm just starting to learn about armor rolling and such, but I'm only at the point where I flick my mouse to the left or right whenever I can't avoid being hit? Wouldn't it make more sense for the EBJ to have smaller hitboxes since it is a smaller mech?

[Scout Derek]

Timberwolf > Ebon Jaguar in Public Que (Viability in Agility, armor, and tonnage available)

Ebon Jaguar > Timberwolf in CW (Viability in tonnage category)

[TheAlphaStrike]

Pariah Devalis, on 18 March 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

Under the current tonnage limits for CW, you can actually get away with 4x 65 ton mechs. Food for thought. That said, the EBJ has superior pod space allotments and a great variety of omnipod types, so you can load an EBJ out as a laserboat or as a ballistic platform. All the hardpoints on an EBJ are well placed, either in line with the cockpit or above it. The TBR has more armor and is easier to armor roll with, since the EBJ has the body plan of a horizontal plank of wood making it extremely easy to direct fire to specific components. The TBR also has the options for jump jets, but many of its hardpoints are below cockpit level.

However, I find myself more of a fan of the EBJ. The overall flexibility of the chassis, the weapon placement, and its dashing good looks is enough for me to prefer it over the TBR. Note, though, that the EBJ should rarely be in the front line. It is more of a mid line to rear line mech, due to being a bit squishy.

Hmm. That is something that I have noticed that as well. But I have noticed that even though the timberwolf is tanker than the EBJ, it really isn't that much tankier. Then again, it is a 75 ton mech. What I'm trying to say is, I feEl like even though there is a armor difference, it isn't that much so to the point where it puts the twolf way over the ebj. Is it just me, or am I doing something wrong here?

[His Holiness Pope Buster]

Both are good mechs. If you plan on playing CW (now FW), the EBJ fits nicely into a 260 ton drop deck. If you will be sticking to quick matches in the solo queue get the TBR first. Eventually you should own both EBJs and TBRs as well as HBRs IMO.

Edited by His Holiness Pope Buster, 18 March 2016 - 08:16 AM.

[nehebkau]

KinLuu, on 18 March 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

IMHO the TBR is the more solid performer, because of the huge hitbox issues of the EBJ. Those really hold the EBJ back.

'
QFT

Ebon hitboxes are really bad.

[TheAlphaStrike]

Scout Derek, on 18 March 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

Timberwolf > Ebon Jaguar in Public Que (Viability in Agility, armor, and tonnage available)

Ebon Jaguar > Timberwolf in CW (Viability in tonnage category)

Well, I was browsing metamechs, and it seems like whatever the timberwolf can run, the ebj can run as well. Your typical 54-68 alpha laser vomits, gauss and laser vomit and even the dual gauss builds. Thier builds seem to be the same, or somewhat, with the difference of a heat sink or two here or there. Am I missing something , or is there a specific build that your pointing towards?

[Cion]

TheAlphaStrike, on 18 March 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

Could you please explain to me what you mean by these hitboxes? I'm just starting to learn about armor rolling and such, but I'm only at the point where I flick my mouse to the left or right whenever I can't avoid being hit? Wouldn't it make more sense for the EBJ to have smaller hitboxes since it is a smaller mech?

here, take a look from the glorious Hitbox localization thread
See EBJ nose all CT, so torso twisting will not work as well:

edit: added link to Hitbox thread

Edited by Cion, 18 March 2016 - 08:20 AM.

[Scout Derek]

TheAlphaStrike, on 18 March 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

Well, I was browsing metamechs, and it seems like whatever the timberwolf can run, the ebj can run as well. Your typical 54-68 alpha laser vomits, gauss and laser vomit and even the dual gauss builds. Thier builds seem to be the same, or somewhat, with the difference of a heat sink or two here or there. Am I missing something , or is there a specific build that your pointing towards?

I'm talking about the tonnage that each one is.

In CW, you are limited to a set amount of tonnage for 4 mechs, in this case, let's use 240 tons limited.

So, at the most, you can only take 2 Timbers, which amount to 150 Tons, and 90 tons of whatever two mechs you want.

However, 2 Ebon Jaguars take up 130 Tons, meaning that you can take yet another Ebon with the same amount of Pod Space for weaponry and another mech.

[TheAlphaStrike]

Scout Derek, on 18 March 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

I'm talking about the tonnage that each one is.

In CW, you are limited to a set amount of tonnage for 4 mechs, in this case, let's use 240 tons limited.

So, at the most, you can only take 2 Timbers, which amount to 150 Tons, and 90 tons of whatever two mechs you want.

However, 2 Ebon Jaguars take up 130 Tons, meaning that you can take yet another Ebon with the same amount of Pod Space for weaponry and another mech.

Ahhhh, I see! Thank you for clearing that up mate!

[TheAlphaStrike]

Cion, on 18 March 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

here, take a look from the glorious Hitbox localization thread
See EBJ nose all CT, so torso twisting will not work as well:

edit: added link to Hitbox thread

Ah I see, but looking at the TWOLFs hit boxes from that thread, they kinda look exactly the same. BoTh of them has this protruding b29 nose from thier center torso es that seems to be about the same. I don't really see much of a difference here. Once again, am I missing something?

[Cion]

TheAlphaStrike, on 18 March 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

Ah I see, but looking at the TWOLFs hit boxes from that thread, they kinda look exactly the same. BoTh of them has this protruding b29 nose from thier center torso es that seems to be about the same. I don't really see much of a difference here. Once again, am I missing something?

Good question.
You'll see the TB also has a nose, but part of the side of the nose is covered by Side Torsos. So yes, you still get CT cored easily in a TB, but not as easily as an EB. Does that make the EB not playable, of course not, it's still way fun, and I prefer it over the TB, but objectively speaking, the TB has the hitbox advantage, even if it's slight, it's noticeable.


edit: And I also support what Pariah said below VV, good post Pariah Devalis.

Edited by Cion, 18 March 2016 - 08:41 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

The issue with the EBJ hitboxes is not even the CT. The Side torsos are the problem. It isn't that the mech has a bad distribution of component hitbox space, but that the mech is so wide that each section is fairly easy to isolate and destroy, which is compounded by it being on the lighter end of the heavy spectrum so has less armor than a heavier platform. Also, unless you limit yourself to just one energy per side torso, you generate weapon pods that make your side torsos significantly larger and, thus, easier to hit.

Because of how easy it is to select a torso to destroy on an EBJ, they are even more fragile than their 65 tons make them out to be. If the enemy can easily focus fire to one spot on your mech than the worth of your armor is reduced. That's why you want to support other mechs in a push with the mech, or stay near the rear or mid line so the enemy has other targets they are prioritizing. If allowed to, however, the EBJ can unleash holy hell and deal stupid damage as a result.

Then you have the yahoos who think an asymmetrical EBJ is a great idea, but now they have the nightmare combination of all your weapons being on one side of the mech for easy removal and that offending side torso being large enough that there is no way you can shield it from someone who knows how to aim. AKA: easy disable, easy kill. Don't be that guy. Build symmetrically with an EBJ if you go with one.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 18 March 2016 - 08:41 AM.

[SplashDown]

Since you are a new player as you state in the OP
I have both the EBJ and Timby Mastered ..and imho the EBJ is a much better mech over the timby.ESPECIALY for new players.
The Tmber Wolf does get JJ's wich is its only real advantage over the EBJ.
TimberW gets only slightly better armor aprox 4 points more per limb ect.ect. not that epic considering its a 10 ton heavier mech.

EBJ imo much more new player friendly with load outs.and has a lower profile than the Timby
EBJ can fill any role you want easily..from laser vomit..to balistics..to missle load outs..and any combo in-between ..Timby can do this also but not nearly as good as the EBJ.

EBJ and Timbie both have wide CT hit boxes so either would be good at teaching one of the most needed skills in the game to stay alive,,,TORSO TWISTING.....

Edited by SplashDown, 18 March 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[TheAlphaStrike]

Pariah Devalis, on 18 March 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

The issue with the EBJ hitboxes is not even the CT. The Side torsos are the problem. It isn't that the mech has a bad distribution of component hitbox space, but that the mech is so wide that each section is fairly easy to isolate and destroy, which is compounded by it being on the lighter end of the heavy spectrum so has less armor than a heavier platform. Also, unless you limit yourself to just one energy per side torso, you generate weapon pods that make your side torsos significantly larger and, thus, easier to hit.

Because of how easy it is to select a torso to destroy on an EBJ, they are even more fragile than their 65 tons make them out to be. If the enemy can easily focus fire to one spot on your mech than the worth of your armor is reduced. That's why you want to support other mechs in a push with the mech, or stay near the rear or mid line so the enemy has other targets they are prioritizing. If allowed to, however, the EBJ can unleash holy hell and deal stupid damage as a result.

Then you have the yahoos who think an asymmetrical EBJ is a great idea, but now they have the nightmare combination of all your weapons being on one side of the mech for easy removal and that offending side torso being large enough that there is no way you can shield it from someone who knows how to aim. AKA: easy disable, easy kill. Don't be that guy. Build symmetrically with an EBJ if you go with one.

First off, allow me to thank you for having the patience to write such a long explanation to a newbie.
But after reading your post, I'm still somewhat confused. Going by your logic, most of these mechs are all somewhat wide all have this problem. Especially the timberwolf. As a whole, the twolf is bigger than the ebj. Wouldn't this mean bigger hitboxes? From me looking, the smaller hitboxes means smaller target overall. Am I just overthinking it again?

[Gas Guzzler]

Timber Wolf in my opinion, the firepower difference is negligible, but the Timber wins on mobility (JJs, that S-right torso) and feels a bit more durable to me. Both are solid mechs, but I think the Timber is slightly better objectively speaking.

That said, you can run 4 Ebon Jaguars/Hellbringers in CW, which is also nice, but 3 Timbers and a Jenner IIC isn't so bad