195 replies to this topic

[Damia Savon]

OZHomerOZ, on 20 March 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

I think LRM's are in the right place balance wise.

Sure they can devestate the careless (Don't give LOS to spotters-UAV and NARC excluded from this statement)
Sure they have lots of counters (Which you can counter - Narc, UAV, TAG, Artimis, Jump Jets, Team mates pressing R key)
Sure they rely on Team work (Team mates pressing R key and Direct Fire guiz doing their job)
Sure their Slow (Use them between 180 and 500 metres to reduce travel time)
Sure they spread damage (Use smaller launchers and or Artemis)

But LRM's can do one thing other weapons cant - INDIRECT FIRE

So dispite all its disadvantages LRM's do have one unique advantage.
Pilots that can use this strength can do very well with LRM's.

Pilots that do not understand that LRM's fundamentally rely on LOS (Line of Sight) will continue to be wreked by LRM's

I disagree that LRM's are a no skill weapon.
I think of them as a different skill weapon.

There my Safety Sumoner Styling cuz LRM's are safe.

I hope you realize how much absurdity you posted. Not that you are an idiot but just how much regarding the state of LRMs is totally absurd.

Don't be in LOS? You can't hide all the time.

Gadgets... radar dep is a module slot taken...big deal. ECM is a bubble that can cover multiple mechs, weighs almost nothing, takes up minimal space and no weapon slots. ATD is almost a necessity and takes up a module slot. TAG requires an energy slot (try finding one on an A1 or 5W) and requires face time. NARC is a missile slot plus ammo. UAVs are one time things and do cost money. Basically all the LRM counters are super easy while the counters to them have a substantial cost to the LRM mech or another mech.

Firing 180-500m... medium range for a "long-range" weapon system. No other weapon has such an absurd minimum range. Though I admit I am glad for it when some nitwit runs right in front of me and takes 30 LRMs to the back. No other weapon system is so absurdly slow.

Spread damage..in theory I have no problem with this since in lore all BT weapons pretty much spread damage. However name me one other weapon system where you want your primary weapon to be the supposedly weakest of its range? "No Atlas..don't take that terrible AC20. .take this MG instead. No Mr. Direwhale..don't boat large pulses..boat small pulses." You should want to take the largest LRM launchers, but since they spread larger than any mech in the game and you lose locks easily, they are terrible. On the TT an LRM20 could ruin your day..in MWO it is a joke. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY LRM5..

Oh and that indirect fire bit... great and useful..except for..you know...that friggin, universal missile warning that starts screaming the moment you fire your lrms. Nothing screams "surprise" like someone shouting "Get to covet you fing moron right now" over and over.

Btw..you left out the easy and compact anti-missle system..comes in single, double and now triple models. What is my counter to those? Well it should be the giant LRM launchers except they suck, so thankfully it is player stupidity for not taking it.

Pretty much everything regarding lrms in this game is absurd. So yes it not only takes a different skill set, but skill period and a properly kitted out mech to be minimally viable. ABSURD

[Steel Claws]

Bishop, that's why I never use LRM 20s. Too heavy and take up too much space that can be devoted to better weapons. Don't really use LRM 15s either. Yes in battletech there were LRM boats, and they were kept far away from any real fighting - i.e.fire support mechs.

I see no need to do things any differently here. After all, this is following cannon battletech. Normally most of you argue that we must follow the cannon, why change for this.

Edited by Steel Claws, 20 March 2016 - 08:29 PM.

[Damia Savon]

Steel Claws, on 20 March 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

OK - say this with me all of you and get it in your heads. "LRMs are a Support weapon." They are not and should never be used as a primary weapon. I normally love to see a LRM heavy team on the other side. I start sharpening the axe. The only bad time is if you drop with a bunch of fools that just cower behind buildings and have lights that do not know what to do with their mech. Those nice juicy Lurm boats are so ripe for picking.

What truly makes me sad is seeing an Atlas sporting Lurms - such a waste of 100 tons. This is not to say that i don't have a few mechs with 20-30 tubes of LRMs on them with maybe 3 tons of ammo. Those are to soften targets at range before i bring the rest of my weapons to bare.

Support weapons - secondary weapons only. Only a true fool does more than that

You know at one time LRMS hit only the CT, the kind of pinpoint damage metawhores love right? It caused all the ADD COD kiddies such tears that it was changed. Give us back CT homing and proper LRM spread and I'll show you what LRM support is supposed to mean.

LRMS are supposed to beat down a target along with long range direct fire mechs. They are supposed to influence the battle almost any place on the map. They are supposed to help the team mate who is suddenly facing 2v1 or more almost instantly.

They are supposed to shave off tons of that Atlas so your Warhammer can take it.

Just because it is a support weapon does not mean it is not to be used as a mech's primary weapon. You want your support to be powerful not piddly.

[Dirus Nigh]

Pinscher, on 19 March 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

In tabletop being able to use someone elses targeting for a lock is supposed to be done with C3. The mere fact IS can do it is a gimmie to make clans not be over powered. However if C3 was actually an item in the game, clans would lose weaponry for the tons and crits it takes to pull it off. Making them more accurate with less weapons... a balance in its own right.

That is completely false.

LRMs have had the ability to be fired indirectly with a spotting unit well before C3 was introduce. The communication systems of mechs have always been able to relay information between each other. The Ostscout is well known for having an excellent communications and sensor system for this very task.

The C3 network is specific to the target computers themselves. They effect all weapons and reduce target numbers based on the closest friend unit, with in the network, to the target.

[Damia Savon]

Steel Claws, on 20 March 2016 - 08:28 PM, said:

Bishop, that's why I never use LRM 20s. Too heavy and take up too much space that can be devoted to better weapons. Don't really use LRM 15s either. Yes in battletech there were LRM boats, and they were kept far away from any real fighting - i.e.fire support mechs.

I see no need to do things any differently here. After all, this is following cannon battletech. Normally most of you argue that we must follow the cannon, why change for this.

First it's "canon".

Second.. no problem staying back and providing supporting fire. I want to do it with lrm15s and 20s like I am supposed to be doing, not spamming LRM5s.

Which do you prefer as direct fire support, AC2 or Gauss? Med lasers or ERLL or PPCs?

Think about it.

BTW the Archer has 13 tons of armor on the TT. That is more than a Warhammer, Marauder, or Zeus and only half a ton less than a Stalker. The Catapult had 10 tons which is only a ton less than a Marauder or Zeus. They both were backed up by 4 ml which was nothing to sneeze at on the TT even though it is in MWO. LRM mech were not all fragile flowers on the TT, though some like the Viking, C4 and A1 were.

[General Solo]

Damia Savon, on 20 March 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

I hope you realize how much absurdity you posted. Not that you are an idiot but just how much regarding the state of LRMs is totally absurd.

Don't be in LOS? You can't hide all the time.

Gadgets... radar dep is a module slot taken...big deal. ECM is a bubble that can cover multiple mechs, weighs almost nothing, takes up minimal space and no weapon slots. ATD is almost a necessity and takes up a module slot. TAG requires an energy slot (try finding one on an A1 or 5W) and requires face time. NARC is a missile slot plus ammo. UAVs are one time things and do cost money. Basically all the LRM counters are super easy while the counters to them have a substantial cost to the LRM mech or another mech.

Firing 180-500m... medium range for a "long-range" weapon system. No other weapon has such an absurd minimum range. Though I admit I am glad for it when some nitwit runs right in front of me and takes 30 LRMs to the back. No other weapon system is so absurdly slow.

Spread damage..in theory I have no problem with this since in lore all BT weapons pretty much spread damage. However name me one other weapon system where you want your primary weapon to be the supposedly weakest of its range? "No Atlas..don't take that terrible AC20. .take this MG instead. No Mr. Direwhale..don't boat large pulses..boat small pulses." You should want to take the largest LRM launchers, but since they spread larger than any mech in the game and you lose locks easily, they are terrible. On the TT an LRM20 could ruin your day..in MWO it is a joke. ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY LRM5..

Oh and that indirect fire bit... great and useful..except for..you know...that friggin, universal missile warning that starts screaming the moment you fire your lrms. Nothing screams "surprise" like someone shouting "Get to covet you fing moron right now" over and over.

Btw..you left out the easy and compact anti-missle system..comes in single, double and now triple models. What is my counter to those? Well it should be the giant LRM launchers except they suck, so thankfully it is player stupidity for not taking it.

Pretty much everything regarding lrms in this game is absurd. So yes it not only takes a different skill set, but skill period and a properly kitted out mech to be minimally viable. ABSURD

Lots of previous posts have mentioned how to mitigate LRM damage, choosing to ignore such information is your choice.

Personally I don't run AMS or Radar Derp on any mech including, my assault mechs and rarely die from LRM's.

And if you bothered to watch my vid, you would see that LRM's can be powerfull in the right situation

The word idiot does not make your arguement stronger
l2Lrm


In case you don't want to watch the video, I'm narcing my own targets at close range, on a map with high cover in a Sumoner. I'm working that indirect fire angle for all I'm worth

3 kill 900 damage.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 20 March 2016 - 10:16 PM.

[wanderer]

If people want to talk TT, LRMs were -more- effective there.

Why? Because they hit in clusters of 5 (or fraction therein, given AMS).

If LRMs smacked targets like a hail of AC/5 shells, that'd be an upgrade. Heck, Archers were a robot of choice for me and my friends when we did tournaments. And they dealt damage just fine, although clusters of 5 weren't quite as armor-piercing as LL/PPC/Gauss hits, they also were a bit more effective at critting than those as well.

MWO LRMs hit as individual single missile strikes, generally meaning even a perfect LRM 15 hit sprays over 5-6 locations instead of 1-3.

The LRM is a situational weapon that deals scattered damage. The direct-fire weapons of the meta are neither situational nor scatter damage, and in a game where a 'Mech dies if a specific location loses all of it's HP, that means scatter-damage weapons are always inferior.

That you can literally prevent them from being fired accurately and prevent damage from even reaching the target is just icing on the cake of who's the boss guns of Mechwarrior Online. At the least, I'd like to see them become more accurate.

[Noesis]

A weapon system killing things ...... fancy that.

[Krivvan]

The Amazing Atomic Spaniel, on 19 March 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

I find the laser spam far more annoying. Point. Click. Do instantaneous damage. Repeat. Yawn.

Argue that the duration isn't long enough, but that's sort of the point of duration. It's not point click do instant damage. It's point, click, hold, and compensate for enemy torso twist and movement while doing damage over time.

Damia Savon, on 19 March 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

Laser spam and alpha are the real easy mode in this game. Point mech at the enemy, press left mouse, duck behind cover, repeat. You don't get any more basic and simple than that.

One
Button
Push

LRM usage is a one button push too. It just doesn't require them to aim first.

Xavori, on 19 March 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

The bottom line is that LRM's are currently the hardest to use weapons in the game. That more than anything else is why they are so disliked vs laservomit which is by far the easiest.

Don't mistake "hardest to use" with "least effective."

[Cold Darkness]

Krivvan, on 20 March 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

Argue that the duration isn't long enough, but that's sort of the point of duration. It's not point click do instant damage. It's point, click, hold, and compensate for enemy torso twist and movement while doing damage over time.


LRM usage is a one button push too. It just doesn't require them to aim first.


Don't mistake "hardest to use" with "least effective."

i agree on laserduration making lasers not deal instantly full dmg.

aquiring a lockon will in many cases take more time then your aiming with lasers while in essence requiring you to do the same, so in most cases your argument on "not needing to aim" with lrms is invalid

the heavy reliance on positioning skills and battlefield awareness make lrms indeed the hardest to effectively use weapon in the game. by a HUGE margin.

Edited by Cold Darkness, 21 March 2016 - 05:08 AM.

[Podex]

LRMs are fine. The number of boats on the field is what's making them suck.

[Yankee77]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

Yes. If they are within 200 meter. So a 180 meter minimum to a 200 meter maximum. Very useful.

360 is useful for SSRMs, nothing else.

Besides, it doesn't actually remove lock... you only keep missile lock when your reticule is on target. 360 allows you to keep your target on your sensors, but that's not the same as maintaining lock.

[Yankee77]

Rampage, on 20 March 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

That probably means they are perfect.

Not really, it depends on who the 50% are .Given that the 50% who say they are NOT in a good place tend to be the top tier players, where LRMs are almost never used, that implies that they are in a terrible place right now and very sub-par.

The problem is that they are very effective against bad players, so new players struggle against them a lot, so any buff which makes them competitive will turn them into horrible beasts in the lower tiers.

As such, this means that whatever buffs LRMs receive should be in ways that don't make them better against the lower tiers. Generally, this means keeping their indirect performance where it is now, and only improving there direct-fire effectiveness (at which point they're no more devastating than direct-fire weapons, after all).

That said, a post earlier mentioned that this thread popped up because there was a hint that PGI was trying to fix LRMs... where was this stated?

[Mechteric]

I say LRM doesn't go too far enough!





Has anyone who complains about LRMs ever actually piloted an LRM mech and felt the absolute helplessness at being within minimum range being picked apart by close range mechs? Just curious.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 21 March 2016 - 06:36 AM.

[Damia Savon]

OZHomerOZ, on 20 March 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Lots of previous posts have mentioned how to mitigate LRM damage, choosing to ignore such information is your choice.

Personally I don't run AMS or Radar Derp on any mech including, my assault mechs and rarely die from LRM's.

And if you bothered to watch my vid, you would see that LRM's can be powerfull in the right situation

The word idiot does not make your arguement stronger
l2Lrm


In case you don't want to watch the video, I'm narcing my own targets at close range, on a map with high cover in a Sumoner. I'm working that indirect fire angle for all I'm worth

3 kill 900 damage.

If you read what I wrote, I did not call you an idiot. In fact I specifically state that. What I said was not that you posted anything untrue or wrong, just that it was absurd. LRMS can be used effectively. I've run LRMS since the end of open beta. That does not change the fact that the way PGI has handled LRMS is absurd.

Sorry if you felt attacked since that was not my intent.

[Lykaon]

choopy, on 19 March 2016 - 12:23 PM, said:

Ive played this game on and off ever since its earliest days in closed beta, and for the most part I've enjoyed it. For the most part the games felt mostly balanced and fair, but for one reason or another, LRM boating has always been my biggest pet peeve in the game. but until recently i wouldn't mind it too much. It normally wouldn't hinder game-play too frequently and generally I was able to ignore it. However, withing the past few patches that's seemingly changed. Nearly every round is plagued by a constant hail of missiles, to the point which you cant even stick your head out without losing at least a fifth of your health, and AMS barely does anything, and the average round ends with a picture like this http://images.akamai...06C67357AA43D5/

Now, i suppose there isn't one real cause for this, But with the ability to make mechs like these (or some archer builds) i suppose its doomed to happen. At this point, i just feel that the excess of LRM boating has greatly taken away from my enjoyment (and i'm sure others) in this game. And im not sure if theres anything that can be done about it.

So im posting this to find out what others think, have LRM's gone too far? Is this just part of the game? i just want to hear feedback, see how the community feels about it.

What is that in the picture 5 LRM salvos with 2 of them coming from your side of the map (so probably your team) not so bad considering the recent release of an LRM centric mech (Archer).

And are you serious? 4 LRM 20 and a single LB10X? that scares you? A Highlander IIc? really? And no Active probe and no TAG? ECM bait! 1.5 tons of gear turns 4 LRM20s off so do it.

That mech can bearly get out of it's own way with that tiny engine so there is no excuse for not being able to engage it at sub 100m range (even clan LRMs are nearly ineffective at knife fighting range).

The sad truth is LRMs are woefully underpowered as a stand alone weapon system. (and so is the LB10X so that Highlander is really firmly parked in downtown sadville). If one team is overly LRM centric the solution is actually very simple.

CHARGE!

It's that easy engage the enemy at very close range.By the time they have locked/fired and the ordnance has slowly "rocketed" through the air to you at speeds that make hot air balloons look agile you should have at worse taken two salvos before you are in their face.

The tricky part is, the whole team needs to engage.Even your team's LRMs need to close range to 400m or so to shorten the LRM flight time and reduce the TTK on targets.


If everyone who complained about OVER POWERED! LRMS packed an AMS and a radar derper module two things would happen.

1) there would finally be enough AMS on your team to make a serious difference

2) There would be fewer LRM hits registered because of the loss of locks from the radar deprivation. (thus less LRM damage in total)

A while back in CW the clans were piling on the LRMs to counter the absurd laser range quirks the I.S. mechs were given. So my group put an AMS on every mech and we just sauntered up to the clan mechs and pounded them in a knife fight brawl.

General rule of thumb...1 ams is good for 1 LRM 5 of incoming ordnance. so if 10 mechs pack AMS (and are in support range) 50 LRMs are likely to get shot down.

So that Highlander you posted would likely get three salvos launched tops before it was engaged at point blank range with 50 missiles shot down per salvo so in total 90 potential hits spread across your mech's entire frontage (if you torso twist as the stream of clan LRMs hit) is like a light drizzle of rain. That clan pilot would be lucky to break 200 total damage with that 90 ton mech if it was engaged correctly.

[Damia Savon]

Krivvan, on 20 March 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

Argue that the duration isn't long enough, but that's sort of the point of duration. It's not point click do instant damage. It's point, click, hold, and compensate for enemy torso twist and movement while doing damage over time.


LRM usage is a one button push too. It just doesn't require them to aim first.


Don't mistake "hardest to use" with "least effective."

While I respect you game knowledge, I think you forgot how to add:

1. Press R to target. That is one button.
2. Wait until target locks.
3. Press left mouse or whatever button to fire lrms.
4. Wait and hold lock until lrms hit target.
Optional button presses
NARC
TAG

So at least 2 buttons, possibly 3 unless you bind tag to your lrm fire button too. Pros and cons to that.
Except in the case of ECM mechs, then NARC, or TAG becomes required if the target is not in the 181 to 360 BAP window.

Laser vomit
1. Put cross hair on enemy.
2. Press alpha strike.
3. Wait while lasers burn.
Optional button press
R to target. Good to know which component to actually shoot but not required.

So laser vomit is a single button push. Lrms are at least two plus a much longer wait time. Sorry but laser burns are not that long for IS, especially quirked, pulse laser builds.

Yes the difference is petty but I am rather salty about the stupid "one button criticism" when lasers are far less complicated

Podex, on 21 March 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

LRMs are fine. The number of boats on the field is what's making them suck.

As if all the laser vomi r doesn't? I like playing MWO, not attending an ongoing Pink Floyd laser show.

[Krivvan]

Cold Darkness, on 21 March 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

i agree on laserduration making lasers not deal instantly full dmg.

aquiring a lockon will in many cases take more time then your aiming with lasers while in essence requiring you to do the same, so in most cases your argument on "not needing to aim" with lrms is invalid

the heavy reliance on positioning skills and battlefield awareness make lrms indeed the hardest to effectively use weapon in the game. by a HUGE margin.

The disadvantages of needing to hold a reticule on an enemy exist for both lasers and lrma. But for lasers you need tI hold it on one small component. For lrms you need to hold it on a giant box. It's magnitudes easier to aim with lrms.

The exact same positioning skills are required for any long range build. LRMs aren't special in that regard except you have to do the difficult task of seeing if your reticule turns red or not when you shoot...

Podex, on 21 March 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

LRMs are fine. The number of boats on the field is what's making them suck.

The number drops as you get higher in tier. Tier 3 is the first big change and after that the prevalence of lrm boats gradually drops.

[Thrudvangar]

It is part of the game and shouldnt be changed while "fixing" the mechs who can carry alot lrms...
They should fix the targeting... no LOS to the target or no tag/uav on em = no fire.

This passive targeting and firing just sucks... all these backpedalers out there standing somewhere on the other end of the map, pushing on button while one of the little laser vomit scrubs going face to face with an assault, coring him with three alphas and out of the clouds, the noob rockets are making you blind. What a "good" game it is.

[Catho Sharn]

CapperDeluxe, on 21 March 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

Has anyone who complains about LRMs ever actually piloted an LRM mech and felt the absolute helplessness at being within minimum range being picked apart by close range mechs? Just curious.

Eh, that cuts both ways. I'm sure that poor assault caught in the open by 3 LRM boats feels just as helpless. Sometimes, bad stuff happens.