195 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Thrudvangar, on 21 March 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

What ya all doing in a match where youre on the "IS" side, so to speak, having almost no or even 0 ecm mechs on your side PLUS playing a map where "cover" isn't really covering you from lrms?

There's a map that doesn't have enough cover?
I guess Alpine if you get caught wandering around in the open, but a missile firer still needs to get within 1000m (at the very least) to fire at you. You should be well within cover by the time the enemy get within 1000m.

[Damia Savon]

OZHomerOZ, on 21 March 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

I don't feel attacked,
just a bit confused by your statement.

Well it is correct that it's is better to boat lrm5s than take 15s or 20s currently. However if you tell it to a newbie it will blow their mind because bigger is supposed to be better. If you want to do a lot of damage you should, ideally, be taking 15s and 20s. The LRM system is so broken though that what should be the worst launcher is really the best.

You can use lasers, gauss, ppcs and so forth right out of the box. Yet because of easy LRM counters like Radar Dep and ECM, a new LRM pilot needs to know about BAP, Artemis, NARC, TAG and UAVS plus Advanced Targeting Decay module. They need to understand the basics of targeting and holding locks, then how ECM and Radar Dep affects locks, then how BAP, Artemis, NARC, TAG and Advanced Target decay interact with those two and with each other. There is an interaction between all of those that an LRM pilot needs to know just to make the weapon viable. It's absured.

All the advice we give to new LRM pilots just goes against logic.

[SQW]

QuantumButler, on 21 March 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

TBH LRMs are trash weapons because they spread damage all over the target and take 5x-10x as long to kill the target as just shooting it with lasers, goose, acs, or srms.

I have been hit and killed by like 6+ mechs worth of lrms when I got NARC'd on Polar Highlands with literally no cover, all missles hitting me, and it still took a good 20-30 seconds for me to die, in comparison I'd have died in about 3 seconds flat if I got focused by 2 or 3 robots with anything else other than joke guns like the flamer and megagun. [the lrm team then got rolled over because the rest of my team had real weapons and used those 20 seconds to bumrush the enemy]

This is why lrms are trash and why people hate you for bringing them on your own team.

If they were lighter, they could be good harassment weapons, because getting hit by a billion of them does make the one pilot really salty, but they eat up all the tonnage so you have to dedicate your mech to a mediocre weapon system.
.

Yeah, and during that 20-30sec of *** whopping, how much return fire did your team mates manage to shoot back?
If 6 mechs were focusing on your with direct fire weapons, half of them would also be dead to your team.

If you buff LRM dmg comparable to a direct fire weapons, NOBODY will use lasers or ACs. LRM has so many advantages over direct fire if used properly, you really do need the sub-par dmg of the current state to avoid a complete LRM meta.

[QuantumButler]

SQW, on 21 March 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Yeah, and during that 20-30sec of *** whopping, how much return fire did your team mates manage to shoot back?
If 6 mechs were focusing on your with direct fire weapons, half of them would also be dead to your team.

But the only way lrms are a threat at all is if they are massed on one target, unlike real guns.

I'm not saying buff the damage though, they tried it once, everyone hated it, LRMs are just fundamentally poorly implemented in mwo and need a complete overhaul.

[EurakaLi]

talk about lrm spread...

Edited by EurakaLi, 21 March 2016 - 06:42 PM.

[Wolfways]

SQW, on 21 March 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Yeah, and during that 20-30sec of *** whopping, how much return fire did your team mates manage to shoot back?
If 6 mechs were focusing on your with direct fire weapons, half of them would also be dead to your team.

If you buff LRM dmg comparable to a direct fire weapons, NOBODY will use lasers or ACs. LRM has so many advantages over direct fire if used properly, you really do need the sub-par dmg of the current state to avoid a complete LRM meta.

Imo it's not the damage that's the problem (other than smaller launchers having higher dps than bigger ones) but more about LRM's not being viable at long range...which is the whole point of them. Little damage at long range.

[Pjwned]

SQW, on 21 March 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Yeah, and during that 20-30sec of *** whopping, how much return fire did your team mates manage to shoot back?
If 6 mechs were focusing on your with direct fire weapons, half of them would also be dead to your team.

If you buff LRM dmg comparable to a direct fire weapons, NOBODY will use lasers or ACs. LRM has so many advantages over direct fire if used properly, you really do need the sub-par dmg of the current state to avoid a complete LRM meta.

There aren't many people asking for LRM buffs to make them comparable to direct fire weapons. I know some people would like to buff LRM direct fire in exchange for severely gimping indirect fire by requiring TAG/NARC for indirect locks, but I don't agree with that at all.

The biggest issue with LRMs by far is that ECM is too good and creates a ridiculous hard counter against LRMs that shouldn't exist, and then after that Radar Deprivation needs to be toned down because it's also too good, and then after that large LRM launchers need to be better because their damage spread is too much; none of that does anything except make LRMs be less of an unreliable trash weapon when it already has plenty of downsides.

Wolfways, on 21 March 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

Imo it's not the damage that's the problem (other than smaller launchers having higher dps than bigger ones) but more about LRM's not being viable at long range...which is the whole point of them. Little damage at long range.

It's not that they don't do damage at long range, it's that LRMs have a hard time reaching a target if they're very far away, but when they do land on target (let's say at 900m away) then they do full damage unlike every other weapon in the game.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 March 2016 - 04:01 AM.

[Malachy Karrde]

Tristan Winter, on 19 March 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

We've been saying it for years.

LRMs aren't simply underpowered or overpowered at any point. They are poorly designed. They are poorly designed because it's insanely easy to get target locks, they require virtually no aiming skills to use, only situational awareness and an ability to read the battlefield. Sometimes, you don't even need that.

How are you going to balance LRMs and Streaks without aiming skills in a game where every other weapon relies on good aiming skills? You can't. So as you tweak them up and down, buff and nerf them, you're going to see them rise or fall in popularity, but they'll never really be in a good place.

They need to introduce aiming skills into the equation. The target lock mechanic we've had since 2012 is a joke. Until that happens, we're just going to see varying degrees of complaints from LRM users or LRM victims, or both.

lrms and streaks have always been a lock on weapon in battletech. You don't aim a missile. If the us military had to aim hell fire missiles, we would be in a world of hurt. srms are basically unguided rockets. Pgi has done everything possible to mitigate the ability to get a lock. It's harder to get and maintain a lock than it is to point and click a laser which is virtually skill less in my opinion. It's really easy to be a laser meta pilot. It's a lot harder to be a successful missile jock.

[Wolfways]

Pjwned, on 22 March 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

It's not that they don't do damage at long range, it's that LRMs have a hard time reaching a target if they're very far away, but when they do land on target (let's say at 900m away) then they do full damage unlike every other weapon in the game.

Hard to do damage at long range when the targets computer starts screaming "Run! Run now! You have 8 seconds to reach cover!"
I mean really, how often is someone more than about 3 seconds from cover? The missile warning needs to be removed so players know they are targeted when the first salvo hits (and LRM5's need changed so they cannot be constantly chain fired).

[Catho Sharn]

Wolfways, on 22 March 2016 - 05:14 AM, said:

I mean really, how often is someone more than about 3 seconds from cover? The missile warning needs to be removed so players know they are targeted when the first salvo hits (and LRM5's need changed so they cannot be constantly chain fired).

I can imagine the tears of rage that would flow if missile warnings were removed.

Actually, I can't. I suspect the forums would melt.

[Wolfways]

Catho Sharn, on 22 March 2016 - 05:33 AM, said:

I can imagine the tears of rage that would flow if missile warnings were removed.

Actually, I can't. I suspect the forums would melt.

Yeah.....but I don't care
I don't get a warning when someone fires other weapons at me, and those other weapons are the ones that actually hurt!

[Oni74]

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 19 March 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Inner sphere LRM have a max range of 21 hexes. Each hex is 30 meters.
21x30=630 (i think... I am bad at math).

Is LRM in mwo have a max range of 1000m

So... Yes they have gone to far!

Yes, they've literally gone too far with this.

BUT

anyone with at least average intelligence and some experience with LRM boats knows not to fire off the LRMs at anything more than ~600m or so unless the situation is a no-brainer (ex: Atlas walking out in the open).

The 1000m max range is nothing but a trap for newbies!

[Tristan Winter]

Malachy Karrde, on 22 March 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

lrms and streaks have always been a lock on weapon in battletech. You don't aim a missile. If the us military had to aim hell fire missiles, we would be in a world of hurt. srms are basically unguided rockets. Pgi has done everything possible to mitigate the ability to get a lock. It's harder to get and maintain a lock than it is to point and click a laser which is virtually skill less in my opinion. It's really easy to be a laser meta pilot. It's a lot harder to be a successful missile jock.

What?

I mean.... what?

At 400-800 meters, I don't even have to aim at an enemy mech to get a target lock. I just have to aim in the general direction, i.e. aim inside the huge red box. At a distance where the enemy mech is just a tiny dark splotch of pixels, I can easily and comfortably get a target lock by aiming at that huge red box. Even when I'm firing at a moving target at 700 meters, it's child's play to get and maintain target lock. Literally anyone can do it, unless they suffer from some sort of serious disease.

And do I have to maintain target lock by keeping my reticule inside the box at all times? No! I can actually move the reticule outside the red box for 1-2 seconds at a time, and I will maintain target lock regardless. Even if I sneeze and cough and fall of my chair, my missiles will still be homing on my target when I get back up.

To say that it's easier to hit someone with a laser than a missile in MWO is just intellectual dishonesty. It's simply not true. It's demonstrably false.

We did have good target lock mechanics in MWO for a few days, I recall. It was actually a bug, unintended by PGI. That was the only time in about 3 years of MWO where we had target locks that actually required aiming skills. It was fantastic. So naturally, they "fixed" it.

http://mwomercs.com/...oving-the-lrms/

[wanderer]

At the same 400-700m, I can generally centerpunch a target with direct-fire weapons. Heck, I do it all the time while LRMing. Tap Z once, pew pew pew.

Surprisingly, my LRMs just continue to scatter across that entire big red box regardless of where I actually put the crosshairs. Oh, and they take about 4 seconds to cross 600m, not including the lock time. Heck, I've finished full laser burns and watched my target dodge the missiles I launched at the same time.

[Pjwned]

Wolfways, on 22 March 2016 - 05:14 AM, said:

Hard to do damage at long range when the targets computer starts screaming "Run! Run now! You have 8 seconds to reach cover!"
I mean really, how often is someone more than about 3 seconds from cover? The missile warning needs to be removed so players know they are targeted when the first salvo hits (and LRM5's need changed so they cannot be constantly chain fired).

Retch, removing the missile warning against a long range, homing, indirect fire weapon is not fair. If you want LRMs to be better at longer range (which I think would be alright) then they can move faster as they fly longer.

As for not being within ~3 seconds of cover, that can definitely happen with a big & slow mech even when not playing stupidly.

Wolfways, on 22 March 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Yeah.....but I don't care
I don't get a warning when someone fires other weapons at me, and those other weapons are the ones that actually hurt!

Those other weapons are all direct fire though, you need line of sight to do damage with them (which means being exposed to return fire, even briefly) whereas LRMs don't need that.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 March 2016 - 04:18 PM.

[MyGunJammed]

The game is feeling more broken with each patch. Lights outtanking heavy mechs and the LRMS just make me not want to play anymore. I might take a break for a year or so. If the game is still around I'll see what's changed in 2017. It's not worth my time at this point.