52 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

PGI were concerned that in some CW matches, some IS players were using a few highly-quirked ERL chassis to stand back and snipe from a distance. So, as we know, they nerfed all ID ERL quirks down to a maximum of +10%.

I just played a CW match on Hellebore Springs where an entire 12-man Clan team brought ERL Mechs, stood back on the furthest hills, and sniped from a distance for the entire match.

Same approach, same result. The IS team couldn't get within effective weapon range, even when we rushed and focused, trying to use brawlers and lower heat to our advantage. With the Clan team setting up at at the back walls of the map, they were able to completely hose down the only two inbound approaches, focus 12x4 ERLs worth of damage on the IS team as it approached.

I think the final score was 48:17 (and several of those 17 were due to some Clan pilots deliberately bailing and bringing a fresh Mech to the final wave).

Please note, I am not complaining about an enemy team using its weapons and the current balance mechanic to win. They did what the current weapon balance encourages them to do.

But I am wondering why PGI would consider it ok for Clans to now do exactly what they nerfed the IS for doing? And, what is the supposed counter to that strategy on that map (or Boreal, for that matter) when a Clan team simply sits back at the furthest reach of the map and ERL snipes for an entire match?

Rushing didn't work. Even with Light Mechs. So I am stumped and scratching my head about why such an obvious outcome of the nerfing was allowed to happen, and what PGI expected IS pilots to be able to do about it?

Edited by Appogee, 16 March 2016 - 01:23 PM.

[Dee Eight]

spending MC for repeated advanced artillery obviously...

[Scout Derek]

Play it smart and instead of rushing together do this:

One Lance through one gate as a distraction,

And then send two lances through another while the first distracts.

This is probably the only way I can think of countering it, unless you were pugging and playing with below average players at the time.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I think that's more a map and mode design problem more so than weapon or tech base balance issues.

[MechWarrior4023212]

Appogee, on 16 March 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

.....

Clan is OP!

[habu86]

Dee Eight, on 16 March 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

spending MC for repeated advanced artillery obviously...

You can get the same type of artillery for C-bills if you unlock the correct skills with GXP. Also, airstrikes are generally better as their path is more predictable.

[Xoxim SC]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 16 March 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

I think that's more a map and mode design problem more so than weapon or tech base balance issues.

This point right here hits the nail on the head across the board.

[MischiefSC]

Split rush.

Careful use of arty.

Spawn camp the **** out of them.

Long version - as soon as you come around the corner and see the far wall setup you need to change gears. You are no longer trying to get to the enemy team you're trying to get to their spawn.

First, always go "Pro Gate" not "Pug Gate". That's the southern one. The only thing you send to North gate is lights.

Second, drop arty and advance to cover. Drop arty and advance. This is a place for that dakka Mauler to shine. Those ac5s (you run 5xac5s, right? Uacs are a trap) have a better actual range than cerlls.

You'll eat fire up front, twist through, go around the right and up to the gun. Clear turrets, use arty and try to get even 1 kill. Then farm that little ******* out in their drop zone all 4 drops. Rinse and repeat.

They have to come down onto those narrow alleys to dig you out and those Erlls are crap up close.

I respect them trying the strat and it's not a bad one. A TBR gen rush on Sulfurous is also a stupidly strong strat that's really hard to beat but that's the nature of the game.

[habu86]

Gah. Misread the map's name

Anyways, Mischief's got the right answer. North gate is too easy for defenders to pull all sorts of stupid stunts. South gate has its own bottleneck on the E3 corner, but you've got more options with regards to how to deal with it. The whole map is actually pretty infernal with respect to the kind of ambushes and impossible situations a wily defender can set up.

[Zoid]

Clan ERLL aren't any longer ranged than 10% quirked IS ERLL. I think the base quirk has the IS versions very slightly longer range. What happened here was simply that a team took ranged builds to a ranged map and beat a brawling team. Things would have been very different on Vitric Forge.

This is the risk you always run when you bring brawlers anywhere. They might crush things up close but if you can't get close they're screwed. Long-range weapons might not be as good for brawling but they'll always be somewhat useful.

If you guys had brought 'mechs all with ERLL too, you would have been just fine. IS can still fire 3 at a time without ghost heat and they are shorter duration.

[McHoshi]

Appogee, on 16 March 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

PGI were concerned that in some CW matches, some IS players were using a few highly-quirked ERL chassis to stand back and snipe from a distance. So, as we know, they nerfed all ID ERL quirks down to a maximum of +10%.

I just played a CW match on Hellebore Springs where an entire 12-man Clan team brought ERL Mechs, stood back on the furthest hills, and sniped from a distance for the entire match.

Same approach, same result. The IS team couldn't get within effective weapon range, even when we rushed and focused, trying to use brawlers and lower heat to our advantage. With the Clan team setting up at at the back walls of the map, they were able to completely hose down the only two inbound approaches, focus 12x4 ERLs worth of damage on the IS team as it approached.

I think the final score was 48:17 (and several of those 17 were due to some Clan pilots deliberately bailing and bringing a fresh Mech to the final wave).

Please note, I am not complaining about an enemy team using its weapons and the current balance mechanic to win. They did what the current weapon balance encourages them to do.

But I am wondering why PGI would consider it ok for Clans to now do exactly what they nerfed the IS for doing? And, what is the supposed counter to that strategy on that map (or Boreal, for that matter) when a Clan team simply sits back at the furthest reach of the map and ERL snipes for an entire match?

Rushing didn't work. Even with Light Mechs. So I am stumped and scratching my head about why such an obvious outcome of the nerfing was allowed to happen, and what PGI expected IS pilots to be able to do about it?

There´s always a counter tactic... and maybe it´s just so easy


P.s.: ... and i guess PGI turns the balance towards clans this way because it´s more lore near that way ( Clans got better range )

Edited by McHoshi, 16 March 2016 - 06:05 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Zoid, on 16 March 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

Clan ERLL aren't any longer ranged than 10% quirked IS ERLL. I think the base quirk has the IS versions very slightly longer range. What happened here was simply that a team took ranged builds to a ranged map and beat a brawling team. Things would have been very different on Vitric Forge.

This is the risk you always run when you bring brawlers anywhere. They might crush things up close but if you can't get close they're screwed. Long-range weapons might not be as good for brawling but they'll always be somewhat useful.

If you guys had brought 'mechs all with ERLL too, you would have been just fine. IS can still fire 3 at a time without ghost heat and they are shorter duration.

It's only a 2.5m difference not counting modules, 4m counting max range module.

[WARCRACK]

Game needs a smoke grenade consumable module. Maybe an artillery strike that lands white phosphorus shells on the field and can give you the chance to rush in and close distance.

[sycocys]

Wouldn't be an issue if there wasn't re-spawns and crappily added re-spawn zones.

[MechWarrior4023212]

Zoid, on 16 March 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

Clan ERLL aren't any longer ranged than 10% quirked IS ERLL...

Does that include the TC that Clan has that gives us extra beam range?

[Appogee]

Lots of good ideas in this thread, thank you.

[sycocys]

Appogee, on 16 March 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

Rushing didn't work. Even with Light Mechs. So I am stumped and scratching my head about why such an obvious outcome of the nerfing was allowed to happen, and what PGI expected IS pilots to be able to do about it?

You should be able to rush it out with 4 fast mediums. Not rush them, but rush the gens with multiple waves of 3x srm6/a + 2 ML (just for the best front loaded to put on static targets that always register damage). On Hellbore all the gens are central around the base, so just circle the cannon and unload into each gen while twisting away as much turret and LL as you can - 10/12 should be able to get 2-3 passes a piece on the first two waves which will take care of the gens. 3rd wave forces them up, but if they stay in the back on the hills they give you free reign to the cannon for an easy win.

Counter-attack (is a terrible mode) but with the same drop deck set-up on the attacker side you should be able to cycle your mechs at the pug line wall/corner to pop the edge and alpha the MFB. Take it out and retreat to the pass path or the little gully outside the gate. Force them to come to you or wait 30 minutes, if you want to win it the best counter is to just make them more bored than you are.

Edited by sycocys, 16 March 2016 - 08:51 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Appogee, on 16 March 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

Lots of good ideas in this thread, thank you.

I was watching a MS twitch stream and saw HHoD pull off an ambush that just crushed a whole first wave of TBRs. It was brilliant and evil and I loved it and I'm stealing it.

There's always cheap tricks, it's part of FW's charm. Almost universal this point though there's a counter. When there isn't we get hard coded changes like Ogen moves and boxes.

The problems with the trick you pointed out is that you'd need to have something in your deck to deal with it and it's too uncommon to bother. A nice thing about hellbore is you can set up between the defenders and their drop zone and force them out of a pocket to push you out of their dropzone. Kill one guy, put your farmin' gloves on and make it an 11 v 12 match.

Boreal is harder but a fast trench push can get you into them. Back when IS had the range in an IS vs IS match my team hid and dropped 12 total arty/air before we closed. It was pretty funny.

Worst trick?

12 Grasshoppers/QDs defending vitric who jump up on to the roofs and shoot down. They can catch attackers in crossfire very easily and shooting backs isn't hard at all. Especially on counter_attack it's just evil.

[Appogee]

/rubs hands together. Now I'm eager to have another go

[gloowa]

ERLL? There are people using that?