555 replies to this topic

[Adamski]

What a load of ********.

You left IS to go Clan when Clan was OP, and you are crying that Clan isn't OP anymore.

Clans have top tier mechs at 100t 85t 75t 65t 55t 50t 45t 35t 30t

If you cant find a Clan mech / dropdeck that is top tier, that's due to your own failings.

Yes, the MLX, IFR, SMN, GAR, and possibly EXE still need help, but that's a far cry form an entire faction needing help.

Edited by Adamski, 24 March 2016 - 01:47 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Grisbane, on 24 March 2016 - 05:52 AM, said:

which is why i suggested MWLL style.. of course that would mean PGI would have to quit being lazy and put things other than mechs into the game.. like tanks, aircraft.. and *gasp* power armor. MWLL used a points and in-match income system in order to gain access to larger units. they balanced it by making clans cost much, much more so only better players had access to upper end clan gear. Clan vs IS was balanced per match, also due to the fact there was a forced que balancing. the game was very popular till this game came along and practically snuffed it out. but MWLL proved the fallacy in your claims of Clams must equal IS in power. there are other ways to do it.. but then that would require actual work.. and we all know how allergic some people in this company are to actual work.





yes MWLL had it's issues, but i have yet to see your claim of 1 guy dominating a match. 1 guy good in an aircraft can be a force... until someone gets their hands on a UAC bushwacker.. then he becomes lunch.

MWLL wasn't Battletech, but it was more heavily influenced by Battletech than this abomination is. Most of the clan/IS balancing is there.. mechs weren't the only thing on the battlefield (you know... because in BT they weren't either). at least MWLL had the honestly to not claim they were not as truly loyal as they needed to be to be called a Battletech game. MWO.. they have no such qualms about lying.

Elemental could wreck a whole team of mechs even mechs that were 100 tons with a c4 block, Erppc and a laser.


IF you think that is balance then you aren't the person to consult on this subject sadly.

[Johnny Z]

DovisKhan, on 24 March 2016 - 05:22 AM, said:

This doesn't translate into a multiplayer game, there is not a snowballs chance in hell the population would split in this required proportion, much more likely than not, you'd have 80% playing Clan tech and waiting ridiculous times for a match


That's why IS must be = Clan tech in terms of efficiency, how this = is reached does not matter, but you have to have a 50% win chance between equally skilled pilots regardless of which faction they use

Right.

The entire concept is broken. Its asking one guild to field more active players than another guild just have an equal chance.

All the store prices would need to be changed and refunds given to anyone buying Inner Sphere mechs.

I could quite literally fill this page with the problems this broken concept makes.

Making a game without balance has never worked even to a small degree. I honestly cant believe the weak calls for Clan easy mode at this point. Really.

I should add, had I been a Clan player I may feel differently but the facts remain and I havnt seen an argument where easy mode is justified. Saying "because" doesn't count.

If this were a top down RTS it may be different..... but not really. In Star Wars 1 Jedi = 1 Sith. Anything else would be broken and suck. This is what we are talking about with Battletech. In Star Trek 1 Klingon Cruiser is = to 1 Federation Cruiser. Borge are NPC's.....

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 March 2016 - 02:33 PM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Adamski, on 24 March 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

EXE still need help

Barely. Maybe JJ thrust boost to not make them useless, or something to increase its available tonnage, the latter wont happen though.

[Scout Derek]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 24 March 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

Barely. Maybe JJ thrust boost to not make them useless, or something to increase its available tonnage, the latter wont happen though.

I think at most it just needs an extra two tons or so.

If it could remove MASC, that'd be nice, but then you'd be taking the Agility out of it...

Grisbane, on 24 March 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

considering that elemental dies the 1st shot by anything heavier than a mech's small laser, and is slower than most mechs.. it balances it.. the support ppc elementals use are not nearly as powerful as a full scale version, nor is the micro-lasers. the C4 requires the elemental getting literally on top of the mech without being spotted. considering the much lower damage, and requirement for complete precision on a slow moving, extremely fragile platform (at least when compared to battlemechs) i would say the ability to coupe-d-grace a mech not paying attention, especially when supported by teammates, at less than 1 meter is fair. give you credit though.. to the random idiot that didn't know what you were talking about.. that would have been a viable argument.. nice try.

Plus I'm guessing people would be using LBs a lot more than usual if elementals came to play.

Spray and pray as they say, and LBX AC/10 never fails to do so.

[Gyrok]

Adamski, on 24 March 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

What a load of ********.

You left IS to go Clan when Clan was OP, and you are crying that Clan isn't OP anymore.

Clans have top tier mechs at 100t 85t 75t 65t 55t 50t 45t 35t 30t

If you cant find a Clan mech / dropdeck that is top tier, that's due to your own failings.

Yes, the MLX, IFR, SMN, GAR, and possibly EXE still need help, but that's a far cry form an entire faction needing help.

Actually, the top mechs at the following weights are:

100T: AS7-S/AS7-D-DC

85T: STK-4N/BLR-2C

75T: BL-KNT-6/BL-KNT-7-L

65T: EBJ/HBR

55T: GRF-2N/SCR

50T: HBK-4P/HBK-4SP/HBK-4G

45T: BJ-1X

35T: JR7-O (Oxide)/FS9-S/RVN-3L

30T: ACH (mostly because the competition is the SDR and UM at 30 tons...)

So, now that we are back to reality...what?

Edited by Gyrok, 24 March 2016 - 04:14 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Actually, the top mechs at the following weights are:

100T: AS7-S/AS7-D-DC

85T: STK-4N/BLR-2C

75T: BL-KNT-6/BL-KNT-7-L

65T: EBJ/HBR

55T: GRF-2N/SCR

50T: HBK-4P/HBK-4SP/HBK-4G

45T: BJ-1X

35T: JR7-O (Oxide)/FS9-S/RVN-3L

30T: ACH (mostly because the competition is the SDR and UM at 30 tons...)

So, now that we are back to reality...what?

HAHA the Griffin compares with the Storm Crow? Since when? That the Cheese Wolf isn't on that list is another thing that makes the entire list worthless.

But, yes the balance has never been closer than it is now.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 March 2016 - 04:28 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Actually, the top mechs at the following weights are:

100T: AS7-S/AS7-D-DC

75T: BL-KNT-6/BL-KNT-7-L

50T: HBK-4P/HBK-4SP/HBK-4G

The Whale still packs far more firepower (for far less heat) than the Atlas can, at over double the effective range...but has significant downsides.

You forgot to mention the Timby


The Nova is outright superior to the Hunch (subject to change with the rescale, and removal of good quirks). Hunch IIC has significant advantages over the normal Hunch too, but lacks the quirks (which have been significantly nerfed themselves).

[MischiefSC]

kentares kodiak, on 24 March 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Ive been to NASA several times but that doesnt make me an astronaut.

Youre either trolling or live in another world. There never was an apology from the devs. It was always their intention to have the clans stronger. Battletech was always made to be played without a GM (in fact even the scenario books dont require one with only a handful exceptions). Only the RPG scenarios are meant to be played with a GM. The Battle Value was created several years after and for tournament purposes (players enjoyed and was made into a standard at the time... as easy to game as it was).

They never "started over" nothing. They never changed nothing. There wasnt nothing to change. They didnt "redid" Kerensky storyline with Devlin Stone.

I doubt you played Battletech table top game... The "brokeness" you mention is not so broken if you play the game as it should be (it was "hard" mode at that).

Dont mix a table top game with a inherent necessity to have balance in a online game as I mentioned before PGI cant enforce Zellbringen and Batchall.

So if you played BT with your little brother and house rules your statements would make sense. Outside that.... are you high?

So if you're playing with friends under a gentlemens agreement on what would make a "fair match up" are you calling that "how it was meant to be played"?

Because competitive pvp between people tryptophan win broke BT completely with Clans. Hence, you know. Everyone ******* hating the Clans.

Have you ever been to a BT forum for tabletop? A con? Tournament?

The only way it "worked" in TT was under agreement between players not to cheese the **** out of it. Have you read the books, the lore? The whole storyline of nuking everything back a la 1st and 2nd succession wars? Balance 1 to 1 for IS and Clan tech?

The Clans were Mary Sue as **** and only "balanced" by artificially requiring them to be incredibly stupid at critical moments. It never worked in anything like competitive pvp. It would never work in an online FPS environment because 60-75% of players would have to voluntarily be the redshirt hordes wanting to bury the OP superheroes under a pile of their bodies and we'd have to over-nerf the IS extra, beyond TT, because Clan players are NOT actually better at playing ergo all the tests involved 12 is mechs dominating 10 Clan ones.

It was always **** balance. BV went through 2 iterations for trying to balance teams for competitive play and never worked well.

If your argument is that BT was never intended for competitive PvP play and only designed for a couple friends to play with house rules and a lot of good sportsmanship... I guess okay?

Or you can look at where balance ended up with 1 to 1 balance and look at any collective source of player opinions on Clan invasion as the least enjoyed facet of the game save for a dedicated munchkin population.

So, yeah. It was absolute objective **** and was fixed by nuking it and starting over 1 to 1.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 24 March 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

The Whale still packs far more firepower (for far less heat) than the Atlas can, at over double the effective range...but has significant downsides.

You forgot to mention the Timby


The Nova is outright superior to the Hunch (subject to change with the rescale, and removal of good quirks). Hunch IIC has significant advantages over the normal Hunch too, but lacks the quirks (which have been significantly nerfed themselves).

Sure...however, the MAL at 90 tons is a better (vastly more mobile) dakka platform capable of similar DPS.

The Atlas is a superior brawler, and is currently the *only* 100 ton mech you see in comp play...PERIOD. I guess there must be a reason that comp does not see DWs? Could it be because they are not worth the opportunity cost currently?

The TW is only better at SRMs than the BK, because the BK has no missile hardpoints. If it had missile hardpoints, they would be quirked, and it would likely also do that better than the TW. However, you also see virtually zero TWs in comp play these days as well.

If the nova was significantly better than the HBK, then why do you see HBKs in comp, but not the Nova?

If we are talking scrub queue, maybe you have some moderate arguments there...however...if we are talking min/maxing and bleeding edge performance, those mechs are not in comp, hence there are reasons they are not in comp.

EDIT: If we are talking stupid firepower...then how is this for you?

A STK with 88 firepower that moves at DW speed with a STD engine, and has sufficient engagement range: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9ffc8a61cb09f0a

Edited by Gyrok, 24 March 2016 - 06:55 PM.

[Wolfways]

DovisKhan, on 23 March 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

That's cause you're both tunnel vision bullet sponges.


If you're not tactically oblivious you will make use of objectively superior mobility, weapon range and damage. In any pvp game: damage > hitpoints


As someone who plays both, Clans and IS I find it much easier to rack up higher damage scores in Clan mechs. Sure I can wipe the floor with any Clan heavy in a brawl with my Marauder, but pounding at a distance, peeking, flanking and everything else is easier with a Clan mech.

Well I did expect at least one ridiculous reply.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

Sure...however, the MAL at 90 tons is a better (vastly more mobile) dakka platform capable of similar DPS.

The Atlas is a superior brawler, and is currently the *only* 100 ton mech you see in comp play...PERIOD. I guess there must be a reason that comp does not see DWs? Could it be because they are not worth the opportunity cost currently?

The TW is only better at SRMs than the BK, because the BK has no missile hardpoints. If it had missile hardpoints, they would be quirked, and it would likely also do that better than the TW. However, you also see virtually zero TWs in comp play these days as well.

If the nova was significantly better than the HBK, then why do you see HBKs in comp, but not the Nova?

If we are talking scrub queue, maybe you have some moderate arguments there...however...if we are talking min/maxing and bleeding edge performance, those mechs are not in comp, hence there are reasons they are not in comp.

EDIT: If we are talking stupid firepower...then how is this for you?

A STK with 88 firepower that moves at DW speed with a STD engine, and has sufficient engagement range: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9ffc8a61cb09f0a

The Mauler is a good Dakka boat...at the same speed of the Whale, but marginally higher mounts.

Brawling is ALL the atlas can do. I see Whales taken, but there are better robots for more jobs. Overwhelming firepower is only one, in specific locations (because low mounts bad poor hitboxes), but the engine is the bigger part. 50 Kph VS 60 Kph


I see quite a few Timbies about, and they win the range game, by far, with the A-LT and LPLs.
The BKs are superior for mid to short range, where they don't need to peek.

Who the hell is taking Hunches? The 4SP? I'd rather take the firepower+almost as much durability with the Nova.

I said range, 300M is not range. 600-1000M is range, and beyond. Not to mention, woefully inadequate cooling for both weapon systems.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 24 March 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

Who the hell is taking Hunches? The 4SP? I'd rather take the firepower+almost as much durability with the Nova.

I said range, 300M is not range. 600-1000M is range, and beyond. Not to mention, woefully inadequate cooling for both weapon systems.

Small tonnage drops, the 4SP is being used as a tank. I never saw a Nova in the MRBC matches I have watched.

While YOU might prefer the nova, clearly, the comp teams prefer the HBK.

405m range is as good as the DW will get out of his load out for the full monty. Sure, a DW can punch further out...but not for the full alpha of 84 that the gigaspike carries.

[Dr Hobo]

Your feelings<Balance.

The Clans/IS are getting closer to balance where they need to be. You gain damage,range and weight/size advantages for trading in to longer burn times and heat.

Of course Clans get more weapons than the IS does,and ECM in about any mech they want.

Do the Clans have mechs that need love? Oh god yes,both sides have mechs that need love.

The Summoner,Sad Cat,and I would even toss Mr Gargles in there too.

As for IS mechs being better,they are only better at *some* things. And that usually involves brawling ranges.

Of course there's mechs like the Oxide,that you hardly ever seen until the a quirk pass,and now they've become cancer like the SRM Jenner 2C.



All in all,I think they're both in a good spot. Both sides have mechs that can do multiple roles,and both sides have mechs tha are sad and need love(Buff my Vindicator plz?)

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

Small tonnage drops, the 4SP is being used as a tank. I never saw a Nova in the MRBC matches I have watched.

While YOU might prefer the nova, clearly, the comp teams prefer the HBK.

405m range is as good as the DW will get out of his load out for the full monty. Sure, a DW can punch further out...but not for the full alpha of 84 that the gigaspike carries.

I actually went and looked at a few matches
2 4SPs
4 Novas
6 Griffins

Which teams are taking the 4SPs? They're doubling down on Griffins, and taking a Nova or Hunch (2C or 4SP) as required, for the most part.

Dakka Whales go past 400M, and ERMLs are effective to 500M, dealing damage at 700M (I remember you having a hard time Mathing that out).

Dual Gauss and LPLs will reach past a KM.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 24 March 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

I actually went and looked at a few matches
2 4SPs
4 Novas
6 Griffins

Which teams are taking the 4SPs? They're doubling down on Griffins, and taking a Nova or Hunch (2C or 4SP) as required, for the most part.

Dakka Whales go past 400M, and ERMLs are effective to 500M, dealing damage at 700M (I remember you having a hard time Mathing that out).

Dual Gauss and LPLs will reach past a KM.

MM and QQs match had 4 total HBKs in one drop.

Edited by Gyrok, 24 March 2016 - 07:44 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

MM and QQs match had 4 total HBKs in one drop.

Not seeing this match on the site.
Saw more 2Cs than HBKs on the QQ VS NS

[Adamski]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2016 - 07:05 PM, said:

You have no argument, so you resort to ad hominem...?

Shows real class.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you, because you quote Metamechs and Comp teams as if those have any bearing on actual gameplay.

Comp gameplay utilizes different rulesets than normal play, like disallowing cap victories, which skews balance towards slower mechs, thus IS mechs get some preference.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 24 March 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

MM and QQs match had 4 total HBKs in one drop.

No there is only 2 4SPs in the MM vs QQ Drop 1. There is 4 Oxides though.

[Gas Guzzler]

Adamski, on 24 March 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

I'm not going to bother arguing with you, because you quote Metamechs and Comp teams as if those have any bearing on actual gameplay.

Comp gameplay utilizes different rulesets than normal play, like disallowing cap victories, which skews balance towards slower mechs, thus IS mechs get some preference.

Comp teams actually are a great bearing on actual gameplay. Cap victories happen, mobility is important. The prevalence of both Clan mechs and IS mechs in comp play shows that balance is pretty decent.